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Dokimas
Guest
Man, you’re really reaching. First of all, the wine is there, and it’s real wine, not grape juice. Second of all, the “host” is exactly that, unleavened bread. So . . . they are used in our Church!
So the info I received that the ‘host’ has yeast in it is incorrect?
NT word for wine could be grape juice. They both are a product of the vine. My guess, because people can be negetively addicted to wine, it was grape juice. I wonder how many pastors or priests have a drinking problem so when thy take the wine they have a problem.
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Dokimas
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LutheranDK
Guest
Sequitur. If Jesus is the Incarnation of God (which He is!), then it follows that Mary is Θεοτόκος.
Mary was important, as the vessel through whom Jesus entered this world, through whom God became man.
But what made her special is the task God chose her for, and her acceptance of this task.
Non-sequitur. None of that follows from anything you (or I) wrote either in the post or in my response.
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Dokimas
Guest
What verse do you find theotokos?
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LutheranDK
Guest
Let me speak for myself here…
I view questions such as the supposed perpetual virginity of Mary as adiaphora. Mary MAY have been a virgin her whole life, and she may not. There are weighty arguments both ways - but IMHO more towards the latter. Whether she was, or wasn’t, is not something that keeps me up at night.
Or so it is claimed…
Blessed? Of course! All who die in Christ, and now await His coming, can be said to be “blessed”. So of course Mary is too.
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LutheranDK
Guest
A simple question: Is Jesus God?
If your answer is “yes”, then you must also agree that Mary was Theótokos “God-bearer”
It’s really that simple.
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guanophore
Guest
Right next to where the word “Trinity” is defined, in the chapter after “hypostatic union” and before the list of the books that go into the Bible.
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Dokimas
Guest
A simple question: Is Jesus God?
If your answer is “yes”, then you must also agree that Mary was Theótokos “God-bearer”
It’s really that simple.
Jesus is God and Mary bore Him. IMO, that’s different than being the Mother of God.
BTW, I wasn’t being sarcastic when I asked where the Greek word you sighted was found. I was interested. I couldn’t find it so I guess I’m not blind
.
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Dokimas
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Must be in your Bible…(right back at youRight next to where the word “Trinity” is defined, in the chapter after “hypostatic union” and before the list of the books that go into the Bible.
)
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guanophore
Guest
Yes, we are all destined for glory. However, Mary had a role that none other had. Have you ever read how Solomon reacted to his mother when she visited him at court?
Mary is the mother of a Davidic King, as such, she has the ancient role of the Gebirah. Why would Jesus give His own mother less honor than Solomon gave his?
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LutheranDK
Guest
As was explained, it follows from Scripture. How you can say that Mary was the mother of Jesus, without saying that she was Theótokos (“God-bearer”), and not descend into the Arian heresy, is absolutely astounding.Jesus is God and Mary bore Him. IMO, that’s different than being the Mother of God.
BTW, I wasn’t being sarcastic when I asked where the Greek word you sighted was found. I was interested. I couldn’t find it so I guess I’m not blind
But with all due respect: It doesn’t hold up. If Jesus is God, then Mary is the mother of God
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LutheranDK
Guest
Well, if one is to follow this example completely, then Mary was not perpetually virgin, because Solomon’s mother was not.
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Dokimas
Guest
I have acknowledged Mary bore Jesus, God the Son. She was the vessel God use to come into this world as a Human. I have maintained this all along. What I’ve also said is there is, IMO, a difference between being the mother of Jesus, God the Son and being the Mother of God. IMO, being the Mother of God implies she played part in creating God as all biological Mothers play a role in the creation of a human. God was not created. The Human form He took was created; did the Holy Spirit us one of her ovum, I’m not sure or, and this is my leaning, did He place the whole holy seed in her womb?
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Dokimas
Guest
What does the following verses mean?
Phil 2:
5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7 but made Himself of no reputation (emptied), taking the form (external appearance) of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness (representatil; likeness of something; figure) of men.
8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
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benidict
Guest
hi dokimas, ok. maybe someone can answere this better than i. a custom can be changed, but during the time the custom is in effect, yes your friends would be sinning. just as now if a priest would marry, he would be in disobedience to Rome. but if Rome changed their stance on this custom and stated that yes, priest may now marry, they could do so. customs are for a time, but do have the force of law, while they are in effect. dogma and doctrine are from the time of Jesus and the apostles and will be in effect during the entire life of the Church on earth. such as. the immaculate conception. the trinity, the seven sacraments etc. hope this helps. and if i got it wrong, or my understanding is limited. then someone please add or subtract from what has been stated. im a fairly new Catholic. so i certainly am going to get some things wrong.
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YADA
Guest
Jesus’ human nature is from the humanness of His mother … Why did God decide to enter into humanity in this way is a mystery … but that is how He disided to … It is you who have determined that God - only used Mary as a ‘vessel’ like an incubator … but that denies the humanity of Christ … making Him purely God …
as another poster informed you by so doing you are flling into heresy … There were two heresies:
1] that Jesus was not truely God - that God ‘used him’ - dwelling inside him - leaving the body of Jesus just prior to his death on the cross - leaving only the man Jesus to die. [after all God is immortal - and can;t truely die]…
Another:
2] that Jesus was just God and not human … because God id God and man is man … he just looked like a person …
The early Christian’s looked at these novelties when they presented themselve, compared them to the what had been handed down, wrestled with the Mysteries … Trinity - One God, Jesus - Man and God … out of this reflection, study and discourse by the Christian community came the declaration that Mary was the “God Bearer” the Theotokos …
Here we are some 1800 years later and the arguements and heresies are the same
… remonds me of the old saying “nothong is new under the sun” …I would recommend you look at the controversies around the various heresies …
And then tell me - why is it that the original reformers would find your view of Mary - used as a vessel - a tool, much like an incubator to be foriegn to the Christian faith? …
Because they would you know … they believed in Mary as perpstual virgin, the Mother of Jesus and the Christ …
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benidict
Guest
ill pray for all of us dokimas. OH MY JESUS, FORGIVE US OUR SINS, SAVE US FROM THE FIRES OF HELL, LEAD ALL SOULS TO HEAVEN ESPECIALLY THOSE MOST IN NEED OF YOUR MERCY. AMEN.
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Dokimas
Guest
hi dokimas, ok. maybe someone can answere this better than i. a custom can be changed, but during the time the custom is in effect, yes your friends would be sinning. just as now if a priest would marry, he would be in disobedience to Rome. but if Rome changed their stance on this custom and stated that yes, priest may now marry, they could do so. customs are for a time, but do have the force of law, while they are in effect. dogma and doctrine are from the time of Jesus and the apostles and will be in effect during the entire life of the Church on earth. such as. the immaculate conception. the trinity, the seven sacraments etc. hope this helps. and if i got it wrong, or my understanding is limited. then someone please add or subtract from what has been stated. im a fairly new Catholic. so i certainly am going to get some things wrong.
You probably did a great job. Thanks.
It does baffle me, however, how a man-made ordinance can be a sin if broken. Where in the Bible does it say that humans determine what is sin and what is not? I thought that was God’s job because He created us, not we ourselves.- Status