Mary WAS sinless

[Jujujellybean]

First off, do you believe yourself worthy to carry God’s son? That is what you are implying by saying she was sinful.

Also, in the bible, all the big figures, such as Moses, Peter, the apostles, Saul, King David the chosen one, ALL sinned at some point and had to be humbled and reminded of who was in charge. :tsktsk: In the bible, Mary is the MOTHER OF GOD and not even once does Jesus reprimand her or tell her what she did wrong, because she didn’t DO anything wrong. If she had sinned, don’t you think we would know??? It doesn’t say in the bible that she sinned. So how are you protestants so sure???:ehh:

 

[AFollower]

I do not know how you can assume anything about Mary being sinless from the bible.

All are sinful:

Romans 3:21-23 NKJV
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Psalm 14:2-3
The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.

Romans 3:10-20 NKJV
“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
“ Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;

  “ The poison of asps is under their lips”;
   “ Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
    “ Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    Destruction and misery are in their ways;
    And the way of peace they have not known.”
    “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Jesus is the only one that is sinless.

2 Corinthians 5:21 NKJV
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

The bible says that Jesus had no sin so he could become sin for us. Not that Mary had no sin so that she could birth Jesus. I really cannot understand why Mary’s rightousness is even in question? We are all justified by Christ’s death, not by our deeds. We cannot be justified by our deeds because our rightousness is like filthy rags to the Lord.

Isaiah 64:6 NKJV
But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.

Explain to me two things. Why Mary’s rightousness even matters? And if it does, how does it stack up against the scripture I just laid out?

 

[mozart-250]

It doesn’t say in the bible that she sinned. So how are you protestants so sure???:ehh:

It doesn’t say that you have sinned in the Bible either. Yet I believe that you have. Am I being presumptuous here?

 

[sawman]

How about this scripture?

And comming to her he said"Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you."---------Lk.1:28

 

[justinthemartyr]

I do not know how you can assume anything about Mary being sinless from the bible.

All are sinful:

Romans 3:21-23 NKJV
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Psalm 14:2-3
The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.

Romans 3:10-20 NKJV
“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
“ Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;

  “ The poison of asps is under their lips”;
   “ Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
    “ Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    Destruction and misery are in their ways;
    And the way of peace they have not known.”
    “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Jesus is the only one that is sinless.

2 Corinthians 5:21 NKJV
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

The bible says that Jesus had no sin so he could become sin for us. Not that Mary had no sin so that she could birth Jesus. I really cannot understand why Mary’s rightousness is even in question? We are all justified by Christ’s death, not by our deeds. We cannot be justified by our deeds because our rightousness is like filthy rags to the Lord.

Isaiah 64:6 NKJV
But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.

Explain to me two things. Why Mary’s rightousness even matters? And if it does, how does it stack up against the scripture I just laid out?

these pretexts of scripture prove nothing.

Jesus did not sin

scripture says that God destroyed all men on earth in the flood, yet he did not destroy noah, his three sons and their wives. was God lying?

also, if all have sinned, then what about unborn babies that are murdered, did they sin?
do retarded people sin?
do insane people sin?

of course not. you have to know what sin is and knowingly commit it for it to be a sin.

James 5:14 and following says that the prayer of a righteous man availeth much. who is righteous? your quotes say no one is, absolutely no one. but the Bible tells us a much different story when read IN context.

peace

 

[Jujujellybean]

I do not know how you can assume anything about Mary being sinless from the bible.

All are sinful:

Romans 3:21-23 NKJV
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

Psalm 14:2-3
The LORD looks down from heaven upon the children of men,
To see if there are any who understand, who seek God.
They have all turned aside,
They have together become corrupt;
There is none who does good,
No, not one.

Romans 3:10-20 NKJV
“ There is none righteous, no, not one;
There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God.
They have all turned aside;
They have together become unprofitable;
There is none who does good, no, not one.”
“ Their throat is an open tomb;
With their tongues they have practiced deceit”;

  “ The poison of asps is under their lips”;
   “ Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.”
    “ Their feet are swift to shed blood;
    Destruction and misery are in their ways;
    And the way of peace they have not known.”
    “ There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Jesus is the only one that is sinless.

2 Corinthians 5:21 NKJV
For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

The bible says that Jesus had no sin so he could become sin for us. Not that Mary had no sin so that she could birth Jesus. I really cannot understand why Mary’s rightousness is even in question? We are all justified by Christ’s death, not by our deeds. We cannot be justified by our deeds because our rightousness is like filthy rags to the Lord.

Isaiah 64:6 NKJV
But we are all like an unclean thing,
And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags;
We all fade as a leaf,
And our iniquities, like the wind,
Have taken us away.

Explain to me two things. Why Mary’s rightousness even matters? And if it does, how does it stack up against the scripture I just laid out?

Ok, first off, you make an exception for Jesus. Why shouldn’t there be one for his mother? Do you believe that Jesus was not righteous? I think you do, so if those scriptures don’t count for Jesus, they also may not count for his mother. Oh, and the Jewish idiom for “all” at the time didn’t mean necessarily everyone, it meant ‘lots of people.’ And Mary’s righteousness matters because you cannot fully understand her greatness if you don’t realize she was sinless.

 

[NDfan]

these pretexts of scripture prove nothing.

Jesus did not sin

And Galatians 2 clarifies that for us.

scripture says that God destroyed all men on earth in the flood, yet he did not destroy noah, his three sons and their wives. was God lying?

No because GOD told Noah he was going to destroy everyone except Noah and his family.

For behold, I will bring a flood of waters upon the earth to destroy all flesh in which is the breath of life under heaven. Everything that is on the earth shall die. 18 But I will establish my covenant with you, and you shall come into the ark, you, your sons, your wife, and your sons’ wives with you.

So the Bible makes it clear that all didn’t include Noah and his family and that a subset of animals would be preserved.

also, if all have sinned, then what about unborn babies that are murdered, did they sin?
do retarded people sin?
do insane people sin?

How can someone sin that hasn’t even lived on the earth. And yes retarded people and insane people do sin. But they may not be aware they are sinning. If a retarded person kills someone I guess that’s not murder which is a sin. But then again a retarded person may not understand it to be murder which is a sin. That doesn’t mean they didn’t sin.

of course not. you have to know what sin is and knowingly commit it for it to be a sin.

Actually you are incorrect here. Re-read Leviticus 4 and pay attention to “Unintentional SIN”. You can commit sin without knowing it hence unintentional sin. The question is does GOD hold you accountable for it? The answer is no not until you realize it’s a sin or someone points out to you that you have sinned.

So in the example above retarded people and insane people are probably committing unintentional sin which GOD may not hold them accountable. Only GOD knows what’s in their hearts and what they truly understand.

James 5:14 and following says that the prayer of a righteous man availeth much. who is righteous? your quotes say no one is, absolutely no one. but the Bible tells us a much different story when read IN context.

peace

You can be a sinner and still be considered righteous. Noah sinned, Moses sinned, David sinned and all were considered righteous. David commissioned murder, committed adultery and was still called a man after GOD’s own heart.

That would imply that Mary could be sinfull and still be considered righteous.

PEACE

 

[Jujujellybean]

It doesn’t say that you have sinned in the Bible either. Yet I believe that you have. Am I being presumptuous here?

No, I have sinned. You are good at presumptions there. It just irks me that you protestants are so scriptural, yet NO WHERE in the bible does is say that Mary sinned, nor does it ever give a place where Jesus had to reprimand Mary for doing something wrong. And ‘full of grace’, also is highly in support of her sinlessness. do you think she would have been totally full of grace if she had even one sin on her soul???

I will ask again: who here thinks themselves worthy to carry God’s only son???

 

[Jujujellybean]

And Galatians 2 clarifies that for us.
How can someone sin that hasn’t even lived on the earth. And yes retarded people and insane people do sin. But they may not be aware they are sinning. If a retarded person kills someone I guess that’s not murder which is a sin. But then again a retarded person may not understand it to be murder which is a sin. That doesn’t mean they didn’t sin.

Sin is the deliberate disobediance to the known will of God(that’s the dictionary, BTW). If someone is mentally retarded, then they don’t know right or wrong, and aren’t knowinly doing something that is what we call a sin. The act which they commit is a sin, but since they don’t know that, they aren’t sinning.

 

[mozart-250]

No, I have sinned. You are good at presumptions there. It just irks me that you protestants are so scriptural, yet NO WHERE in the bible does is say that Mary sinned, nor does it ever give a place where Jesus had to reprimand Mary for doing something wrong.

Good. Now I might note that you believe correctly that I have sinned, yet NO WHERE in the Bible does it say that I have sinned. So why do you believe that?

My basis for believing that you have sinned is Romans 3:23…“For All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God”. You can take that scripture and likewise conclude that I have sinned.

Now, the Catholic response to this Scripture is “Have aborted babies sinned”? Point taken. So let’s assume for now that the “All” of Romans 3:23 does not mean every member of genus/species homo sapiens (deity exempt) that ever graced the planet earth and that aborted babies have not sinned.

Still, you and I need very good reasons to provide an exemption to Romans 3:23. Otherwise, I could just as well convince you that I have not sinned and you likewise.

The problem with me is that I have examined the Catholic reasoning on this issue and remain unconvinced. I do not have good and sufficient reason enough so that in good conscience I can give an exemption to Mary in regards to this passage of Scripture.

And ‘full of grace’, also is highly in support of her sinlessness. do you think she would have been totally full of grace if she had even one sin on her soul???

Yes I have heard that one. Somehow I am supposed to make the leap from “full of grace” to “never has sinned in her entire lifetime” and “conceived without original sin”. I can not in good conscience make this leap without thinking I am doing violence to God’s written word.

 

[AFollower]

If all are sinful (Romans 3:23), what about these people:

-3 day infant
-Mentally retarded people
-Young Children

This is something that is not covered in the bible. Yet I think God would not judge someone for not believing in him if they did not have the capacity to understand him. He is a just God.

However, just because there are exceptions does not mean that the scripture from Isaiah 64, and Romans 3 can be thrown out the window.

To assume that Mary did not sin simply because one of her sins is not recorded in the bible is stretching the truth. You could make a lot of claims that are probably not true, but have the remote possibility of being true simply due to the fact they are not recorded in the bible.

For the record, I haven’t sinned, and you cannot prove that I have according to your logic

 

[AFollower]

Ok, first off, you make an exception for Jesus. Why shouldn’t there be one for his mother? Do you believe that Jesus was not righteous? I think you do, so if those scriptures don’t count for Jesus, they also may not count for his mother. Oh, and the Jewish idiom for “all” at the time didn’t mean necessarily everyone, it meant ‘lots of people.’ And Mary’s righteousness matters because you cannot fully understand her greatness if you don’t realize she was sinless.

Understand Mary’s greatness? She is a human being that God chose to use. The greatness is all due to God, and nothing to do with her.

I will ask again: who here thinks themselves worthy to carry God’s only son???

We aren’t worthy of anything that God gives us! Mary wasn’t either, however, she is blessed because God chose to use her to birth his Son.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Understand Mary’s greatness? She is a human being that God chose to use. The greatness is all due to God, and nothing to do with her.

In a sense you are correct–all greatness is all due to God as He is author and creator of all.

No question about that. But if you, say, were tempted to sin and chose not to, would YOU claim, “That I did not sin is because God CHOSE not to have me sin. The fact that I did not sin is all due to God, and has nothing to do with me?” I think not. By your choosing not to sin, you cooperated with God. So while ‘goodness’ is still all due to God, your ‘cooperation’ with goodness does indeed have something to do with you.

But if we humans are so precious that God gave us His only begotten Son to ransom us even while we were sinners, as St. Paul says, it seems rather strange that some people would find the woman who bore that Son to be not only NOT as precious’ as any other given individual (we are after all called to ‘love our neighbor as ourselves’), but to be treated as a ‘thing’. As though she herself had no ‘choice’ in the matter, could not have said no, and had absolutely no cooperation with God.

No, these people see her only as an incubator, chosen not because of anything ‘special’ about her, dismissed as a mindless ‘vessel’ who not only was so stupid and ‘average’ that she went on with her life after that Child’s birth as though ‘nothing’ had happened, going on to have ‘many’ children, whom she brought up so poorly that they (as well as she) were personally sinful, tried to stop Jesus and even thought he was insane. . .had to be ‘rebuked’, wasn’t even CALLED ‘mother’, etc. etc.

Sure, they call Mary ‘blessed’. . .if somebody ‘forces’ them into it by citing the relevant Scripture. . .but they immediately follow it with all sorts of vicious charges and denigrating comments.

And these people tell us that they ‘call Mary blessed’ as Scripture says all generations will do?

Sheesh, with ‘friends’ like this calling her ‘blessed’ in one breath, and every name under the sun in the next. . .who would need enemies?

 

[dosdog]

Ok, first off, you make an exception for Jesus. Why shouldn’t there be one for his mother? Do you believe that Jesus was not righteous? I think you do, so if those scriptures don’t count for Jesus, they also may not count for his mother. Oh, and the Jewish idiom for “all” at the time didn’t mean necessarily everyone, it meant ‘lots of people.’ And Mary’s righteousness matters because you cannot fully understand her greatness if you don’t realize she was sinless.

Jeremias 1
5 Before I formed thee in the bowels of thy mother, I knew thee: and before thou camest forth out of the womb, I sanctified thee, and made thee a prophet unto the nations.

 

[AFollower]

In a sense you are correct–all greatness is all due to God as He is author and creator of all.

No question about that. But if you, say, were tempted to sin and chose not to, would YOU claim, “That I did not sin is because God CHOSE not to have me sin. The fact that I did not sin is all due to God, and has nothing to do with me?” I think not. By your choosing not to sin, you cooperated with God. So while ‘goodness’ is still all due to God, your ‘cooperation’ with goodness does indeed have something to do with you.

But if we humans are so precious that God gave us His only begotten Son to ransom us even while we were sinners, as St. Paul says, it seems rather strange that some people would find the woman who bore that Son to be not only NOT as precious’ as any other given individual (we are after all called to ‘love our neighbor as ourselves’), but to be treated as a ‘thing’. As though she herself had no ‘choice’ in the matter, could not have said no, and had absolutely no cooperation with God.

No, these people see her only as an incubator, chosen not because of anything ‘special’ about her, dismissed as a mindless ‘vessel’ who not only was so stupid and ‘average’ that she went on with her life after that Child’s birth as though ‘nothing’ had happened, going on to have ‘many’ children, whom she brought up so poorly that they (as well as she) were personally sinful, tried to stop Jesus and even thought he was insane. . .had to be ‘rebuked’, wasn’t even CALLED ‘mother’, etc. etc.

Sure, they call Mary ‘blessed’. . .if somebody ‘forces’ them into it by citing the relevant Scripture. . .but they immediately follow it with all sorts of vicious charges and denigrating comments.

And these people tell us that they ‘call Mary blessed’ as Scripture says all generations will do?

Sheesh, with ‘friends’ like this calling her ‘blessed’ in one breath, and every name under the sun in the next. . .who would need enemies?

Is Mary only blessed if she was sinless?

 

[MelanieAnne]

I find it rather ironic, actually, that anyone would believe that God would inhabit an unholy place. Perhaps the real question here is whether someone actually believes that Jesus Christ was God. If that was not God in Mary’s womb, then her state of grace is not particularly material. But if it was God, then her state of grace is a matter of great importance.

On a more practical level, I submit it is not a good idea to bad-mouth a Mother to her Son. He’ll usually find it annoying, or worse.

 

[LilyM]

I find it rather ironic, actually, that anyone would believe that God would inhabit an unholy place. Perhaps the real question here is whether someone actually believes that Jesus Christ was God. If that was not God in Mary’s womb, then her state of grace is not particularly material. But if it was God, then her state of grace is a matter of great importance.

On a more practical level, I submit it is not a good idea to bad-mouth a Mother to her Son. He’ll usually find it annoying, or worse.

Especially if that Son is the same God who a) commanded all men to honour their mothers (so certainly did honour Mary perfectly Himself) and then b) commanded us to love one another (Mary included) as He has loved them.

Do you really think anything you could do, short of actually calling Mary a fourth person of the Godhead, could honour Mary more than Jesus could and does honour her, as His own command indicates that He does?

 

[LutheranDK]

First off, do you believe yourself worthy to carry God’s son? That is what you are implying by saying she was sinful.

Also, in the bible, all the big figures, such as Moses, Peter, the apostles, Saul, King David the chosen one, ALL sinned at some point and had to be humbled and reminded of who was in charge. :tsktsk: In the bible, Mary is the MOTHER OF GOD and not even once does Jesus reprimand her or tell her what she did wrong, because she didn’t DO anything wrong. If she had sinned, don’t you think we would know??? It doesn’t say in the bible that she sinned. So how are you protestants so sure???:ehh:

What great logic…

1: I am a man - hence, I cannot bear chilldren

2: In and of herself, Mary was indeed as unworthy as any.
But God had chosen her to be the “incubation chamber” of Himself. Why Mary? I don’t know. Ask God when you see Him face to face, if you still feel it’s relevant.

So all those people who Jesus does not reprimand by name are sinless?
I hope I don’t have to give you examples to show you the absurdity of that claim.

IF Mary was indeed sinless, it is very very hard to see why Paul did not excempt her from the “All have sinned”-remark.
Paul did not say: “All have sinned, except Mary, mother of Jesus”.

If you can - then provide scriptural basis for this view. I can find none.

 

[LutheranDK]

I find it rather ironic, actually, that anyone would believe that God would inhabit an unholy place. Perhaps the real question here is whether someone actually believes that Jesus Christ was God. If that was not God in Mary’s womb, then her state of grace is not particularly material. But if it was God, then her state of grace is a matter of great importance.

On a more practical level, I submit it is not a good idea to bad-mouth a Mother to her Son. He’ll usually find it annoying, or worse.

1: Scripture teaches us that our bodies are the Temple of the Holy Spirit.
So by your defintion of unholy, that would mean that God (if you believe that the Holy Spirit is God, that is) inhabits an “unholy” place.

2: I have not bad-mouthed Mary, nor do I know of any protestants who have done so.
What I, and we, are saying is that she was just another person like you or I. Nothing more, nothing less. There is no Scriptural basis for any other view.

 

[LutheranDK]

How about this scripture?

And comming to her he said"Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you."---------Lk.1:28

Indeed. Where does it say here that Mary is sinless?
That she was favored is quite clear - she was chosen.
But that is not = sinless.