Mary WAS sinless

[LutheranDK]

Sometimes it feels like having a discussion with you(non-catholics) is like this:

Me: The orange is clearly a fruit. It is round. And it is orange.

You: No. It is not green at all.

Me: Okay. Right. But. Can we agree, based on the evidence, that it is round and orange, hence its name?

You: No. You’ve got it all wrong. It’s clearly not purple.

Here’s a metaphor, and I’ll put it bluntly. The soul of every believer is Mary. Mary is an image of the Christian soul. Why do I say this? Because it is the duty of every Christian to give birth to Christ in their souls–that is, to become like Christ in order to become one with Christ. The soul is in a state of transformation, therefore–from Mary (the one who receives the word, the fertile ground in which the Gospel seed is planted), to Christ, entering into the fullness of relationship to God through Jesus. Mary is not the mediator, here. Mary is representative of the soul’s relationship to her creator.

Quite honestly: I have no idea what you just said. Or rather: What you mean.
Can you rephrase? Because I could, honestly!, not make sense of it. Mary is the soul of every believer? Christians must give birth to Christ in their souls?

 

[JoeyWarren]

So, here’s what some modern, English-speaking scholars tell us “Kecharitomene” denotes, based purely on the definition of the word and its grammatical usage:
" ‘Highly favoured’ (kecharitomene). Perfect passive participle of charitoo and means endowed with grace (charis), enriched with grace as in Ephesians. 1:6, . . . The Vulgate gratiae plena [full of grace] "is right, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast received’; wrong, if it means ‘full of grace which thou hast to bestow’ "(A.T. Robertson, Word Pictures in the New Testament, p. 14) “It is permissible, on Greek grammatical and linguistic grounds, to paraphrase kecharitomene as completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament).
However, Luke 1:28 uses a special conjugated form of “charitoo.” It uses “kecharitomene,” while Ephesians 1:6 uses “echaritosen,” which is a different form of the verb “charitoo.” Echaritosen means “he graced” (bestowed grace). Echaritosen signifies a momentary action, an action brought to pass. (Blass and DeBrunner, Greek Grammar of the New Testament, p.166). Whereas, Kecharitomene, the perfect passive participle, shows a completeness with a permanent result. Kecharitomene denotes continuance of a completed action (H. W. Smyth, Greek Grammar [Cambridge: Harvard University Press, 1968], p. 108-109, sec 1852:b; also Blass and DeBrunner, p.175).

 

[JoeyWarren]

Quite honestly: I have no idea what you just said. Or rather: What you mean.
Can you rephrase? Because I could, honestly!, not make sense of it. Mary is the soul of every believer? Christians must give birth to Christ in their souls?

**The soul of every believer is Mary means Mary is representative of the soul’s relationship to her creator. **

 

[JoeyWarren]

When Origen wrote about the annunciation to Mary (Luke 1:26-38), he remarked: The angel greeted Mary with a new address, which I could not find anywhere else in Scripture… The angel says, “Hail, full of grace.” The Greek word is kecharitomene kecaritomene]. I do not remember having read this word elsewhere in Scripture. An expression of this kind, “Hail, full of grace,” is not addressed to a male. This greeting was reserved for Mary alone.The Greek word kecharitomene has fascinated people since ancient times, and for a number of reasons. What does it mean? How do we best translate it into other languages? What might it imply, beyond simple meaning, about Mary? This article will focus primarily on the first two questions: considering the meaning of the Greek word and its translation into English. The third question could not be fully answered without considering the larger scriptural context of the words of Gabriel, traditional Christian understanding and mariology, etc.

So what does kecharitomene mean?

direct address

When Gabriel appears to Mary, the first words he says to her are “Chaire, kecharitomene!” Caire, kecaritomene!]. Chaire (which means both “rejoice” and “hail”) is the salutation, like the word “hello” in “hello, Cathy!” The word that follows, kecharitomene, is the direct address. In the previous example, the name “Cathy” is the direct address. A direct address is usually a name or title (or pronoun taking the place of a name or title) which represents the identity of the person being spoken to. Gabriel identifies Mary with a single term: not the name “Mary,” but the word kecharitomene.
Here, a common translation problem occurs. Gabriel only uses one word to refer to Mary, but most English translations do not. One particularly bad translation renders kecharitomene as “highly favored daughter.” Kecharitomene is extended from one word to three. The direct address in the translation is “daughter,” a word which does not appear in the Greek at all (as will be shown below). “Daughter” is then modified with a relevant word. This doesn’t really do kecharitomene justice. The same is true of translations which make the direct address “you” or “one” and modify it with adjectives or appositive phrases.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Here is the breakdown:

caritow

The root word is charitoo caritow], which means “to grace, favor.” On this much, it seems, all agree. All the common English translations of the word therefore, regardless of whether the translators are Catholic or Protestant, use some form of “grace” or “favor” in them.

ke

The prefix on charitoo is ke, signifying that the word is in the perfect tense. This indicates a present state which is the result of a completed past action. The action which brought about the state in which Mary is, in other words, was completed before Gabriel’s greeting. Gabriel is viewing the finished results.
This tense seems difficult to render in English, especially with one word, as Gabriel uses. The translator does not only want to indicate that the past action is complete, but also that there is a continuing state as a result. Allowing for more than one word, an example of the tense in English might be “you are certified to teach.” “Are” indicates a present state, “certified” shows that the state is the result of a completed past action.

mene
The suffix on charitoo, mene, makes this a passive participle. “Passive” means that the action is performed on the subject, in this case Mary, by another agent. The verb is “grace” and the implied subject is Mary. The passive usage means that “someone graced Mary,” rather than “Mary graced.” Most theologians would probably accept the assumption that the implied “someone” is God. “Participle,” in this case, means that the word has properties of both a verb and a noun. This makes sense in light of what has already been said about direct address. A direct address is a noun or pronoun, but “to grace” is a verb. Kecharitomene has verb and noun properties.

 

[JoeyWarren]

It’s all in the Greek. Any more questions LutheranDK?

 

[LutheranDK]

It’s all in the Greek. Any more questions LutheranDK?

You’re just not making sense, and I get the distinct feeling that you’re just intend on mocking me. Since you seem to have nothing worthwhile to contribute, I’m going to ignore those posts as irrelevant.

 

[JoeyWarren]

**

LutheranDK

Occupation:
Student at the Lutheran School of Theology in Århus, Denmark
Let me know how well they cover the Ancient Greek if they cover it at all. **

 

[MrS]

I do not know how you can assume anything about Mary being sinless from the bible.

All are sinful:

Romans 3:21-23 NKJV
But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all[h] who believe. For there is no difference; for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

…

Explain to me two things. Why Mary’s rightousness even matters? And if it does, how does it stack up against the scripture I just laid out?

Same way we can see from you bio that you are not Catholic, and do not understand the 3 witnesses to the Truth of Jesus Christ… Tradition, The Scriptures, and the Magisterium which has the only divine authority to interpret the first two…

even though you bio does not directly say it.

.

 

[MrS]

No, I have sinned. You are good at presumptions there. It just irks me that you protestants are so scriptural, yet NO WHERE in the bible does is say that Mary sinned, nor does it ever give a place where Jesus had to reprimand Mary for doing something wrong. And ‘full of grace’, also is highly in support of her sinlessness. do you think she would have been totally full of grace if she had even one sin on her soul???

I will ask again: who here thinks themselves worthy to carry God’s only son???

No, they are not. A steady use of selected verses to “prove” a predetermined bias or teaching is not use of the Bible… it is abuse of the Catholic Bible.

Be patient. Often what happens is that our protestant brethren - whom I admit study the Bible more than many Catholics - will all of a sudden discover what we have know for 2000 years.

The sound of “Wow, look what I found” is a wonderful sound indeed.

.

 

[LutheranDK]

It’s all in the Greek. Any more questions LutheranDK?

I agree with your analysis of the wording of Gabriel’s greeting - indeed could have done it myself.
But as you said - the third question, what all this means in regard to what we say about Mary - is another matter entirely.

 

[LutheranDK]

**Let me know how well they cover the Ancient Greek if they cover it at all. **

Let’s see - I’m using three semsters (= a year and a half) on koiné-greek, because that is what the NT was written in - not ancient Greek as this is normally understood.
So I would say that is a pretty GOOD coverage, wouldn’t you?

 

[MrS]

IF Mary was indeed sinless, it is very very hard to see why Paul did not excempt her from the “All have sinned”-remark.
Paul did not say: “All have sinned, except Mary, mother of Jesus”.

If you can - then provide scriptural basis for this view. I can find none.

Paul was quoting the Old Testament… I suggest you read the entire quote to see that TWO groups of people were being compared. And it was that “group” which turned away from God of whom he says “…all have sinned…”

 

[JoeyWarren]

Let’s see - I’m using three semsters (= a year and a half) on koiné-greek, because that is what the NT was written in - not ancient Greek as this is normally understood.
So I would say that is a pretty GOOD coverage, wouldn’t you?

Yes good coverage. But is that coverage biased? Or is the coverange honest.

What have you learned from the words: “Pas”, “Hapas”, and “Holos” which all render in poor english “All”?

IMHO, it is better to study Koine Greek under the tutelage of an Athiest, since he holds no bias toward a particular religion.

 

[MrS]

Please answer me why does Mary have to be sinless in order to be blessed? The bible records only one person has no sin.

2 Corinthians 5:21 KJV
For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Why oh why is it so important that Mary was sinless???

Actually Scripture is telling us that only one, Jesus, knew no sin. He was not in need of Salvation.

Mary needed salvation, and she admits as much.

The Catholic Church has always understood that Mary was “saved” from original sin before conception…thus she alone is “…full of grace…”, and she alone is the one whom “…all generations shall call blessed…”

The very particular Greek, used by the educated St Luke, is clear that “full of grace” is a perfect past participle… a condition that was, is and will continue.

That would not be possible if Mary had or would sin. Unless you claim that that verse is wrong.

.

 

[MrS]

**Let me know how well they cover the Ancient Greek if they cover it at all. **

Good to see you active J W (and I mean that as a compliment, not to question your membership at a Kingdom Hall… ). Maybe it is just me, but I have not seen enough of your posts lately.

.

 

[LutheranDK]

Paul was quoting the Old Testament… I suggest you read the entire quote to see that TWO groups of people were being compared. And it was that “group” which turned away from God of whom he says “…all have sinned…”

I did a search and found no place in the OT (not even in the Apocrypha) where the quote from Rom 3:23 appeared.

Since you said it was a quote, I expect you to show me from where?

 

[JoeyWarren]

Mary needed salvation, and she admits as much.

I disagree with the needed part. I will accept that she recoginzes the source of her salvation, that being God the Father. Her salvation came from God the Father and not the God the Son in the exclusive use of the terms. At the point in time that Mary acknowledged this source, the Godhead was only “God the Father” It is inconcievable for Mary to acknowledge that the child in her womb would also be responsible in part to her salvation.

What all protestants fail to recognize is that Mary’s Salvation came before the Cross. Moreso Mary’s Salvation came before the Birth of Christ. Even Moreso, Mary’s Salavation via the Kecharitomene came before the annunciation in which Gabriel was viewing the result of that salvation which preceded Gabriel. So the question becomes this. WHEN DID THE ACTUAL SALVATION TAKE PLACE.

To answer that, we have to look at the parallels that exist in scripture betweent the Ark of the Covenant of the Old Testament and that of Mary, which by understanding these parallels, we can safety conclude that Mary fullfilled the role as the Ark of the New Covenant.

 

[JoeyWarren]

Good to see you active J W (and I mean that as a compliment, not to question your membership at a Kingdom Hall… ). Maybe it is just me, but I have not seen enough of your posts lately.
.

Had to postpone posting for a while to get things done at work.

 

[LutheranDK]

Yes good coverage. But is that coverage biased? Or is the coverange honest.

What have you learned from the words: “Pas”, “Hapas”, and “Holos” which all render in poor english “All”?

IMHO, it is better to study Koine Greek under the tutelage of an Athiest, since he holds no bias toward a particular religion.

I have the lessons in Greek at the state university, and I have trouble thinking of a more ungodly place than that.

The three words

“pas”:
Has several meanings - but the one used in Rom 3:23, as it has been turned into a noun, “pantes” must be “everyone”.

“Hapas”
The intensive form of “pas”

“Holos”
Always used in the NT predicatively. Meaning: Adverb: “wholly”, “completely”, or “whole”, “complete” (depending on the context!), “everything”.

Of course all three have a multitude of sub-meanings. but I’m not going to go into that at the present. I need to start on a manuscript for a meeting I’m to hold on Wednesday, and want to be able to go home before midnight, so I had better get to work…