Mary Worship

[WaitingForJesus]

Thanks to all of you for further enlightening me on Mary. I am a convert – the only Catholic in my entire extended family…and no known Catholics in our past history having been raised in a faith completely opposed to Catholicism. On one level I think my conversion was easier than most because I went through about a 25 year period of simply ignoring God and behaving as a heathen. That freed me to be able to walk into a Catholic church.

So let me second Della and add a few more things for you to think about. The OP will encounter incredible pressure from family and friends not to convert. He may even experience obstacles from within the Catholic church. I know I did. It was so bad for me at one point that I almost walked away, but the Blessed Mother and Lord did something so beautiful that I was convinced I had to keep trying.

These Protestant conversions take miracles and we should be praying for that. God bless you all!

 

[adrift]

This is not what the Church teaches.

CCC 971 “All generations will call me blessed”: "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of ‘Mother of God,’ to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs… This very special devotion … differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an “epitome of the whole Gospel,” express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515

The Church makes a distinction between worship as “special devotion” and worship as “adoration”. To say that Catholics do not worship Mary is to misrepresent the Church.

Note that it doesn’t say we worship Mary( using the word in the modern definition which means that we think of her as a god) it says that we honor her that we have a special devotion and that it differs from the adoration which is given to God. To say that Mary is worshiped by the Church is to misrepresent what the Church teaches if the word is used in the way that it was defined earlier.

Canon Law does not call it worship but THE VENERATION OF THE SAINTS, SACRED IMAGES, AND RELICS. Words change in meaning and worship is one of those words. In todays society it means the adoration we give to God. So NO the Church does not teach the we worship Mary only God but we do venerate her.

 

[adrift]

Fr. Dwight Longenecker gives an excellant reply to Do Catholic Worship Mary?patheos.com/blogs/standingonmyhead/2012/04/do-catholics-worship-mary.html

First we have to define “worship”. From time immemorial worship was identified with a particular action: the action of sacrifice. Pagans worshipped their gods by making sacrifices to them. The Jews worshipped by making sacrifice to Jahweh.
The reason we moderns get confused about worship is that we’ve forgotten the principle of sacrifice so we don’t really know what worship is all about. This is understandable from Protestants because they got worried about the sacrifice thing 500 years ago and threw it out. What is most depressing is that most Catholics also don’t understand the “sacrifice is worship” idea either. They’ve been told the Mass is all about “the family of God gathering around the table of fellowship to increase their mutual self esteem and discuss peace and justice issues.”

Because of this nonsense the majority of American Catholics don’t have a clue what the sacrifice business is all about, and therefore they don’t know what worship is supposed to be about either. Like the neo-Prots that they are they have come to think that worship is all about hearing a sermon, singing some songs and praying.Now we’re getting down to the reason why Protestants think Catholics worship Mary. They think worship and prayer are the same thing. Therefore, if you are praying to Mary you must be worshipping Mary.

Well, the Catholic faith has been around for a long time, and believe it or not, these questions have been asked before, and the Catholics have the answer. It goes like this: there are three categories of respect due in the realm of worship. They go by specific names: Latria, Dulia and Hyperdulia. Latria is worship. It is the worship that is due only to God. This worship consists of offering God our lives, our souls, our minds and our bodies as a living sacrifice (Romans. 12. 1-2) We do this pre-eminently through the sacrifice of the Mass.

Dulia is not worship. It is honor. We honor anyone who is eminent and accomplished.

 

[adrift]

Continued

Hyperdulia is the honor we give to the Virgin Mary. We give her the highest honor because she is unique amongst all God’s creation. She is higher than the cherubim and seraphim. She is the only created being who was honored by God so greatly that his son took his flesh from her. She has totally unique place of honor in heaven and therefore also amongst all of God’s people on earth. The honor we give her, therefore, and the dulia we give her is higher than any other being. But it is not latria.

 

[pablope]

To him they are simple truths–something he has been taught to believe. If he did come here to proselytize, he didn’t succeed. If he came here, dukes up, but still interested, it’s best he take a break. If he came here honestly inquiring, we overwhlemed him. We can only give him to God, in any case.

Well said…I hope I was not too harsh…I resorted to asking probing questions…to get him to think more deeply about what he was professing and saying…and re-evaluate his position…which I hope he is doing taking a break.

We can only offer prayers.

 

[JM3]

Words change in meaning and worship is one of those words.

Perhaps, you can show me how the definition of worship has changed in meaning.

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship

wor·ship - noun

Definition of WORSHIP

1 chiefly British: a person of importance —used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)

2 reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also: an act of expressing such reverence

3 a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual

4 extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem

worship - verb

Definition of WORSHIP

transitive verb

1 to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power

2 to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion

I think I will stay obedient to the pope and the magisterium.
vatican.va/holy_father/paul_vi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_p-vi_exh_19740202_marialis-cultus_en.html

**This devotion fits-as we have indicated above-into the only worship that is rightly called “Christian,” **because it takes its origin and effectiveness from Christ, finds its complete expression in Christ, and leads through Christ in the Spirit to the Father.

1. As we prepare to discuss the place which the Blessed Virgin Mary occupies in Christian worship, we must first turn our attention to the sacred liturgy.

1. The examination of the revised liturgical books leads us to the comforting observation that the postconciliar renewal has, as was previously desired by the liturgical movement, properly considered the Blessed Virgin in the mystery of Christ, and, in harmony with tradition, has recognized the singular place that belongs to her in Christian worship as the holy Mother of God and the worthy Associate of the Redeemer.

 

[adrift]

Perhaps, you can show me how the definition of worship has changed in meaning.

Christian Worship
merriam-webster.com/dictionary/worship

1913 Webster definition
Wor´ship
n. 1.

1. Excellence of character; dignity; worth; worthiness.
   A man of worship and honour.

• Chaucer.
  Elfin, born of noble state,
  And muckle worship in his native land.
• Spenser.

1. Honor; respect; civil deference.
   Of which great worth and worship may be won.

• Spenser.
  Then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee.
• Luke xiv. 10.

1. Hence, a title of honor, used in addresses to certain magistrates and others of rank or station.
   My father desires your worships’ company.

• Shak.

1. The act of paying divine honors to the Supreme Being; religious reverence and homage; adoration, or acts of reverence, paid to God, or a being viewed as God.
   The worship of God is an eminent part of religion, and prayer is a chief part of religious worship.

• Tillotson.

1. Obsequious or submissive respect; extravagant admiration; adoration.
   'T is your inky brows, your black silk hair,
   Your bugle eyeballs, nor your cheek of cream,
   That can my spirits to your worship.

• Shak.

1. An object of worship.
   In attitude and aspect formed to be
   At once the artist’s worship and despair.

Definition 1,2 and5 no longer are defined as worship in Webster today.

wor·ship - noun

Definition of WORSHIP

1 chiefly British: a person of importance —used as a title for various officials (as magistrates and some mayors)

We are discussing Mary this definition does not apply

2 reverence offered a divine being or supernatural power; also: an act of expressing such reverence

Mary is not Divine this definition does not apply

3 a form of religious practice with its creed and ritual

Mary is not a practice creed or ritual does not apply

4 extravagant respect or admiration for or devotion to an object of esteem

Do you think this applies? I don’t

worship - verb

Definition of WORSHIP

transitive verb

1 to honor or reverence as a divine being or supernatural power

Mary is not diven or supernatural power

2 to regard with great or extravagant respect, honor, or devotion

No does not apply

I think I will stay obedient to the pope and the magisterium.

:tsktsk:
You have not provided evidence from a Pope or the Magisterium that we Worship Mary. However, I did provide Canon Law that says we venerate Mary.

Definition of VENERATE
1: to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference
2: to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion

Your quotes do not substantiate your definition.
From the article that you misuse

1. Mary is not only an example for the whole Church in the exercise of divine worship but is also, clearly, a teacher of the spiritual life for individual Christians. The faithful at a very early date began to look to Mary and to imitate her in making their lives an act of worship of God and making their worship a commitment of their lives. As early as the fourth century, St. Ambrose, speaking to the people, expressed the hope that each of them would have the spirit of Mary in order to glory God May the heart of Mary be in each Christian to proclaim the greatness of the Lord; may her spirit be in everyone to exult in God."(63) But Mary is above all the example of that worship that consists in making one’s life an offering to God.

Not that we worship her but that she is an example of how to worship

Does the Church teach us to worship Mary in the way you defined the word.

Lets see

I. “YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD AND HIM ONLY SHALL YOU SERVE”

2097 To adore God is to acknowledge, in respect and absolute submission, the “nothingness of the creature” who would not exist but for God. To adore God is to praise and exalt him and to humble oneself, as Mary did in the Magnificat, confessing with gratitude that he has done great things and holy is his name.14 The worship of the one God sets man free from turning in on himself, from the slavery of sin and the idolatry of the world.

[III. “YOU SHALL HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME”

2110 The first commandment forbids honoring gods other than the one Lord who has revealed himself to his people. It proscribes superstition and irreligion. Superstition in some sense represents a perverse excess of religion; irreligion is the vice contrary by defect to the virtue of religion.

/QUOTE]

 

[adrift]

With these words the Constitution Lumen gentium stresses the characteristics of Marian devotion. Although the veneration of the faithful for Mary is superior to their devotion to the other saints, it is nevertheless inferior to the cult of adoration reserved to God, from which it essentially differs. The term “adoration” indicates the form of worship that man offers to God, acknowledging him as Creator and Lord of the universe. Enlightened by divine Revelation, the Christian adores the Father “in spirit and truth” (Jn 4:23). With the Father, he adores Christ, the Incarnate Word, exclaiming with the Apostle Thomas: “My Lord and my God!” (Jn 20:28). Lastly, in this same act of adoration he includes the Holy Spirit, who “with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified” (DS 150), as the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed recalls.

When the faithful call upon Mary as “Mother of God” and contemplate in her the highest dignity conferred upon a creature, they are still not offering her a veneration equal to that of the divine Persons. There is an infinite distance between Marian veneration and worship of the Trinity and the Incarnate Word.

 

[Chantal25]

I haven’t read any replies.

I bet anything that you have a picture of a loved one or someone dear to you, this help you to connect with them.

I bet you also anything that at some point you have asked someone you know or went on a prayer board to pray for you or for something important to you.

You can never love the Blessed Virgin Mary more then Jesus, so don’t be afraid to love her.

She is indeed full of grace and she is a mother that help us to listen to her son. Read her messages that were approved by the Catholic faith such Fatima, Guadeloup, Lourde etc…

As the miracle of the wine. “Do as my son tell you.” The devil doesn’t like her because he knows she can defeat him. **If you have those doubts about her, why don’t you pray God to reveal you the truth and to give you faith in her if this is God’s will. **

We pray her to pray for us. She is like a Mother that protect and want her children to do good (meaning doing God’s will). Pope Jean Paul II understood how important it was to do the rosary, look what happened to the wall in Berlin. The church didn’t get any credit for this but i can assure the Pope was the seed of this through God and the blessed Mother Mary.

Anyway, this is you and you are missing out completely if you don’t accept her as your mother that can help you to go to her son. Many Saints prayed her.

Blessings and love!

 

[Amiciel]

Thank you who have faithfully defended our love and special reverence for Our Blessed Mother and for the replies clarifying that Catholics do not worship her; we worship only our God. Here are a few thoughts in case they can help.

Assuming this forum thread is referring to worship as an act of the virtue of religion, it will probably help us if the definition quoted from Merriam-Webster is expanded to include details necessary to make an act, a virtue of religion.

What is the difference between the worship we give God and the special honor / reverence that we give Our Blessed Mother?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church gives us these details: "Adoration is the first act of the virtue of religion. To adore God is to acknowledge him as God and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists, as infinite and merciful Love … To adore God is to acknowledge, in respect and absolute submission, the ‘nothingness of the creature’ who would not exist but for God. To adore God is to praise and exalt him and to humble oneself, as Mary did in the Magnificat … The worship of the one God sets man free from turning in on himself, from the slavery of sin and the idolatry of the world." (CCC 2096, 2097.)

Notice then that adoration or worship, as taught above by our Catechism, refers to homage that is rendered to God alone as our Creator. The special devotion we give our Blessed Mother then merely expresses the special love and reverence we have for another human being because she has been raised by God to the highest honor of being the Mother of God.
(Read on for continuation of the thought.)

 

[Amiciel]

Another catechism, My Catholic Faith, by Bishop Morrow, (p. 198), explains our Catholic attitude in this way:

“The First Commandment does not forbid us to honor the saints in heaven, provided we do not give them the honor that belongs to God alone.”

“Devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, and veneration of the Saints, are not opposed to the commandment to adore God alone. We do not worship the saints, we only honor them as the special friends and servants of God.”

“By venerating the saints, we honor God himself, who is the cause of their holiness. Without the help of God, they would not have done anything holy …”

“We give to God the supreme honor and adoration called LATRIA. We render the saints our veneration, called DULIA. To the Blessed Virgin, we give special veneration called HYPERDULIA, because she is above all angels and saints as the Mother of God. But even the Blessed Virgin, we do not and cannot adore or worship …” (p. 198.)

Thus, worship or adoration as an act of the virtue of religion, is rendered to God alone. The Latin designation for these various degress of reverence (latria for God, dulia for the saints, hyperdulia for the Blessed Mother), is more specific, making this point clear. Worship, then, is seen as the first attitude of man acknowledging that he is a creature before his Creator. We do NOT adopt this attitude towards Our Lady; we reserve this attitude exclusively for God alone.

 

[Amiciel]

Please show me a Scripture verse that commands me to accept Mary, in order to truly love Christ.

Please show me a Scripture verse that encourages us to keep company with Mary, in our thoughts and affections, as we pray to Jesus.

Here are some texts from Scripture telling us that Jesus Christ wants us to accept and honor Mary, His Mother, as being truly our Mother. If we do so, we prove our true love for Jesus Christ.

1. **Jn 19:26-27 **- Jesus said to his mother: ‘Woman, here is your son!’ Then he said to the disciple, 'Here is your mother!’
2. Jn 14:15 - Here, Jesus tells us: ‘If you love me, you will keep my commandments.’ Therefore, obeying the Lord’s command in Jn 19:26-27 by accepting His mother and honouring her as our own, is proof that we love Him.
3. The Fourth Commandment - Honor your father and your mother.

---

First - Notice the words of Jesus Christ in Jn 19:26-27. He is telling us simply, in a command, without giving us any option to refuse, that Mary, His Mother, is now our Mother, too. What is the implication here? That Mary is truly our mother and we need to accept, love and reverence her as such.

The above words of Jesus Christ give us an example of a speech-act. A speech-act are words uttered by God, which, upon being spoken, become a reality right away, i.e., what his words declare, actually takes place. In the case at hand, Mary becomes truly our Mother and we become Mary’s children in the order of grace, as soon as Jesus uttered his words. What we have here is a ‘done deal’; and there is no clause being given by Jesus Christ which gives us the option to refuse His gift.

Scott Hahn, in his book Reasons to Believe, points out that a ‘speech-act’ is “a declaration that brings about what it expresses … Therefore, Jesus’ speech … brings about the event.” (p. 76.)

Who so? Because Jesus Christ is God. Remember in the book of Genesis? Scripture says: "And God said:Let there be light! And there was light … Let there be a firmament … and it was so." Thus, when the Lord Jesus said: Woman, here is your son! … [son] Here is your Mother!, Mary, the woman, became truly our Mother in the order of grace, and we became her children.
(Read on for continuation of thought.)

 

[Amiciel]

Second - Notice that the blessed Virgin Mary was given to us by Jesus Christ as He hung dying on the Cross. Almost close to breathing His last, He thought of us and He gave Mary to us as our divinely-appointed Mother in the order of grace. Mary was therefore the Lord’s dying gift to us!

In ordinary life, a dying gift from a loved one who has since departed, would be loved and treasured because of our love for the giver. The gift would be regarded with special reverence.

In the case at hand, the Lord Jesus gave His Mother to us as His dying gift because divine Wisdom deemed it necessary to do so. Who, then, are we to refuse the Lord’s dying gift, or to withhold appropriate love and reverence for Mary, His Mother and now, our own Mother, too? The Lord Jesus is our God and Creator; we are merely His creatures.

Third - An implication of Jn 14:15 is that we prove our love for the Lord by obeying His commands. Therefore, obeying his command in Jn 19:26-27 by accepting and honouring Mary as our own Mother, is proof that we love Him. (On the point of Mary being truly our Mother, it will also help if we meditate on the function given by God to a Mother. What is expected of a Mother as far as providing for the needs of her children?)

Fourth - **The Fourth Commandment ** tells us to 'Honour your father and your mother.’ To see that the Fourth commandment affects us in regard to Mary, we need to reallize that she is really and truly our spiritual mother. This title is not merely a symbolic or a metaphorical title of respect that we give Mary. It is a fact, a very real fact, because Jesus Christ, the God-Man, made her our Mother as she stood at the foot of the Cross. This being so, we are being addressed by the Fourth Commandment to honor her as our Mother.
(Read on for continuation of thought.)

 

[JM3]

:tsktsk:
You have not provided evidence from a Pope or the Magisterium that we Worship Mary.

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_02021904_ad-diem-illum-laetissimum_en.html

1. For to be right and good, worship of the Mother of God ought to spring from the heart; acts of the body have here neither utility nor value if the acts of the soul have no part in them. Now these latter can only have one object, which is that we should fully carry out what the divine Son of Mary commands. For if true love alone has the power to unite the wills of men, it is of the first necessity that we should have one will with Mary to serve Jesus our Lord.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19651207_presbyterorum-ordinis_en.html

18…Let priests love and venerate with filial devotion and veneration this mother of the Eternal Highpriest, Queen of Apostles and Protector of their own ministry.

The latin:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19651207_presbyterorum-ordinis_lt.html

18…quam Summi et Aeterni Sacerdotis Matrem et Apostolorum Reginam, atque ministerii sui praesidium, Presbyteri filiali devotione et cultu venerentur ac diligant.

Pope Benedict XVI’s interpretation:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20090812_en.html

The Council continues, “priests should always venerate and love her, with a filial devotion and worship” (cf. Presbyterorum Ordinis, n. 18).

 

[Amiciel]

Devotion to the Blessed Mother is not obligatory under pain of sin; however, as already mentioned by previous replies to this forum thread, the Catechism of the Catholic Church makes it clear that "The Church’s devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship. The Church rightly honors the Blessed Virgin with special devotion … This very special devotion … differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the Incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration." (CCC 971.) (Emphasis added.)

Notice that the Catechism refers to devotion to the Blessed Virgin as being different essentially from adoration (or worship) as an act of the virtue of religion given only to God. The Catechism uses the word ‘devotion’ to describe the special love and reverence we have for Our Blessed Mother; it however uses the word ‘adoration’ for the homage we give to God.

It is important to realize that Marian devotion is a precious grace given to us by the Lord. Since everything that the Lord does has a purpose, it will be dangerous for us to waste this precious grace.

 

[thomasf]

The Holy Mother is the first, best Christian and an example we should all follow. She loves Jesus and loved Jesus before anyone else, and follows Him perfectly. She is an example we should all follow.

Speaking of my personal experience, I have a great devotion to the Virgin Mary and to the Rosary. Drawing closer to Mary has drawn me closer to Jesus, and helped me to grow in my faith. My faith in God.

I don’t see how anyone can argue with that.

 

[Amiciel]

Scott Hahn, in his book Reasons to Believe, points out that a ‘speech-act’ is “a declaration that brings about what it expresses … Therefore, Jesus’ speech … brings about the event.” (p. 76.)

Who so? Because Jesus Christ is God.

I just noticed some typo errors. My apologies.

1. The reference page to Scott Hahn’s book is p. 176, not p. 76.
2. The last line that reads 'Who so?, should read “Why so?”

 

[maryj]

Jesus said seven things from the cross…One of the things he said/did was to give his mother(Woman) to the “beloved disciple”. Who is “the beloved disciple”?..And why did Jesus choose to say this?

Jesus thy kingdom come, In my heart through Mary.
Take her hand, she will only lead you to her son!

 

[adrift]

vatican.va/holy_father/pius_x/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-x_enc_02021904_ad-diem-illum-laetissimum_en.html

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19651207_presbyterorum-ordinis_en.html

The latin:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decree_19651207_presbyterorum-ordinis_lt.html

Pope Benedict XVI’s interpretation:

vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/audiences/2009/documents/hf_ben-xvi_aud_20090812_en.html

Please read post 130. You are the one that defined Worship than proceeded to ignore it.

Your first link from AD DIEM ILLUM LAETISSIMUM ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS X
Pope Pius X 1903 to 1914 would have a different understanding of the use of worship. He didn’t use your definition. The other quotes all say what I have been saying and canon law

sa18…Let priests love and venerate with filial devotion and veneration this mother of the Eternal Highpriest, Queen of Apostles and Protector of their own ministry. ys we venerate.

The Council continues, “priests should always venerate and love her, with a filial devotion and worship” (cf. Presbyterorum Ordinis, n. 18).

When Protestants accuse us of worshiping Mary they are using the definition that we think of her as a god this is something you never address.
When Catholics refer to worship this is what they mean

[]WORSHIP](http://www.catholicreference.net/index.cfm?id=37215)Acknowledgment of another’s worth, dignity, or superior position. In religion, worship is given either to God, and then it is adoration, or to the angels and saints, and it is called veneration. Divine worship actually includes three principal acts, namely adoratin (or the recognition of God’s infinite perfection), prayer or the asking for divine help, and sacrifice or the offering of something precious to God. Worship as veneration also has three principal forms, whereby the angels and saints are honored for their sanctity, asked to intercede before the divine Majesty, and imitated in their love and service of God. (Etym. Old English weorthscipe, honor, dignity, reverence: weorth, worth +ship.)

the OP defined worship only as adoration as you did. We do not adore Mary we venerate her.

 

[Jeanne_S]

The Holy Mother is the first, best Christian and an example we should all follow. She loves Jesus and loved Jesus before anyone else, and follows Him perfectly. She is an example we should all follow.

Speaking of my personal experience, I have a great devotion to the Virgin Mary and to the Rosary. Drawing closer to Mary has drawn me closer to Jesus, and helped me to grow in my faith. My faith in God.

I don’t see how anyone can argue with that.

THIS!