M
mercygate
Guest
Ah. Help me understand the question. You do not recognize even the historicity of the Catholic Church?
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C
Church_Militant
Guest
Great Scott! MG (In the voice of Doc Brown from BTTF) our dear friend seems to have missed some vital history classes!
S
Scott_Waddell
Guest
That doesn’t answer the question. We may disagree, but that does not warrant the implication that what the Church teaches and what the individual Catholic believes are naturally at odds and that any explanation of Church teaching is invalid. In other words, if you disagree with a Church teaching, say so and why and respond to rebuttals. That is, deal with the actual arguments and not their source.
Scott
E
E.E.N.S
Guest
Based off of what exactly?
M
mercygate
Guest
Church Militant:
I was just asking whether she could put her finger on “when” the Catholic Church became the Church that Jesus didn’t establish. I’m not expressing this well. But for me, a Convert, one of the convincing factors was studying European history. If the Catholic Church isn’t the Church of history, then who needs it? The recognition of the historic line was a big deal – for me.
Maybe not, CM. I’m asking the question. Singin’ says she does not believe the Catholic Church is the Church Jesus founded. Lots of non-C’s agree with her.
I was just asking whether she could put her finger on “when” the Catholic Church became the Church that Jesus didn’t establish. I’m not expressing this well. But for me, a Convert, one of the convincing factors was studying European history. If the Catholic Church isn’t the Church of history, then who needs it? The recognition of the historic line was a big deal – for me.
S
Singinbeauty
Guest
I know that the catholic church has been here on earth for a while now. But I am unconvinced that it is THE church that Jesus meant. I am still leaning towards CHRISTIANITY being the church that Jesus was building under which all of us who believe Jesus rose for our sins to be washed away can stand UNITED.
E
E.E.N.S
Guest
Who is ‘us’? I know that is not how I viewed it before I converted to Catholicism.
M
mercygate
Guest
Can you identify when it started to be here?
To some extent that is the teaching of the Catholic Church. For Catholics, of course, the CENTER of “Christianity” – the place where the fullness of Truth is to be found – is in that historic core which has never separated itself from the teaching of the Apostles in communion with Peter and his successors.
S
Singinbeauty
Guest
Scott Waddell:
Are you assuming that the CHURCH I speak of is the CATHOLIC church of today? I can see your confusion if this is the case but it’s not what I am talking about or meaning. Please check all the other posts I have made where I talk about how I don’t believe that the catholic church of today is the same one as the one started and built by Christ. I will not say it again… I have said it a BILLION times. Well ok, I said it again… make that a billion and one.
E
E.E.N.S
Guest
But Christianity is not a church, per se, and if it were, look at all the different teachings - and if Christ is one with His Church like He says, then He would be contradicting Himself all over the place.
One, holy, Catholic, and Apostolic - this is Christ’s True Church.
Put your Church through the ringer (I know the Church that I belong to passes):
Is it one? (If you are refering to protestantism, then definately not!)
Is it holy? (This is possible.)
Is it Catholic? (Is it?)
Is it Apostolic? (Unless it the Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox, then it is not.)
S
Scott_Waddell
Guest
I am well aware of your beliefs. I am commenting on your false dichotomy between the Catholic Church and individual Catholics. I could be more politically correct and always write Catholic Church, but I think anyone moving an ounce of grey matter in their brains can figure out what I mean.
Scott
S
Strider
Guest
Singinbeauty,
Yours is a pretty advanced understanding of Mary for a non-Catholic. I’m impressed.
If you believe that the Old Testament foreshadows the New and that the New Testament fulfill the Old, visit
biblechristiansociety.com/
Go to “booklets” and click on Mary and the Bible – Purgatory and the Bible. Scroll down until you get to a set of Scripture passages comparing 2 Sam 6 with Luke 1. It’s very interesting. You can download any of the booklets and the CD’s and tapes are free. It’s great information and very entertaining, and entirely Catholic.
Now, for my understanding of Mary. The last words attributed to her in the Bible, “Do whatever he tells you.” (Jn 2:5) pretty much sum up her message to us.
I believe that she was a virgin her entire life. As was stated above, she needed to be married to protect her from the punishment you yourself noted in your post about pregnant, unmarried women in that culture. I’m not sure exactly where it is in the Old Testament (Samuel or Kings), but the man who reached out to keep the Ark of the Covenant from falling from the cart died immediately. If you do the comparison I gave above, you will see why I believe Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. Touch her and die!
She is human like us except she was redeemed by Christ before he was born. He could not abide in an environment surrounded by sin, any sin, Original Sin or personal sin. Being God, he can do that.
On her own, she could not hear our prayers , but God enables it and allows it, as he does all the saints.
I believe that since Our Lord came to us through her, we can go to him through her intercession.
I believe that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and by virtue of that, Mary had a closer relationship with the Holy Spirit during her life on earth. She also provided his DNA, his flesh, if you will.
At the wedding feast at Cana, I believe Jesus knew it was time to begin his ministry, but his humanity recoiled because he knew that his first public miracle would begin a three year clock ticking, and he knew what was at the end of that three years. (That’s my personal belief, but I dont believe it contradicts any Catholic teaching). I also believe Mary knew something – although I don’t know how much, obviousy – about her son’s mission and when it should begin. Since she was perfectrly obedient to God, she “began” Jesus’ ministry. (Again, a personal belief).
I believe that when Jesus gave her to John at the foot of the cross, he gave her to all of us as our mother. Notice, Jesus doesn’t use John’s name, or any name. He merely says, “Behold your mother.” Jn 19:26.
I believe that, besides Jesus himself, there is no more powerful intercessor for us that Mary because I believe Our Lord will refuse her nothing.
Whew! That’s a lot, but it’s what I believe. And I love her as my mother. I do not worship her. I worship the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Yours is a pretty advanced understanding of Mary for a non-Catholic. I’m impressed.
If you believe that the Old Testament foreshadows the New and that the New Testament fulfill the Old, visit
biblechristiansociety.com/
Go to “booklets” and click on Mary and the Bible – Purgatory and the Bible. Scroll down until you get to a set of Scripture passages comparing 2 Sam 6 with Luke 1. It’s very interesting. You can download any of the booklets and the CD’s and tapes are free. It’s great information and very entertaining, and entirely Catholic.
Now, for my understanding of Mary. The last words attributed to her in the Bible, “Do whatever he tells you.” (Jn 2:5) pretty much sum up her message to us.
I believe that she was a virgin her entire life. As was stated above, she needed to be married to protect her from the punishment you yourself noted in your post about pregnant, unmarried women in that culture. I’m not sure exactly where it is in the Old Testament (Samuel or Kings), but the man who reached out to keep the Ark of the Covenant from falling from the cart died immediately. If you do the comparison I gave above, you will see why I believe Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant. Touch her and die!
She is human like us except she was redeemed by Christ before he was born. He could not abide in an environment surrounded by sin, any sin, Original Sin or personal sin. Being God, he can do that.
On her own, she could not hear our prayers , but God enables it and allows it, as he does all the saints.
I believe that since Our Lord came to us through her, we can go to him through her intercession.
I believe that Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit, and by virtue of that, Mary had a closer relationship with the Holy Spirit during her life on earth. She also provided his DNA, his flesh, if you will.
At the wedding feast at Cana, I believe Jesus knew it was time to begin his ministry, but his humanity recoiled because he knew that his first public miracle would begin a three year clock ticking, and he knew what was at the end of that three years. (That’s my personal belief, but I dont believe it contradicts any Catholic teaching). I also believe Mary knew something – although I don’t know how much, obviousy – about her son’s mission and when it should begin. Since she was perfectrly obedient to God, she “began” Jesus’ ministry. (Again, a personal belief).
I believe that when Jesus gave her to John at the foot of the cross, he gave her to all of us as our mother. Notice, Jesus doesn’t use John’s name, or any name. He merely says, “Behold your mother.” Jn 19:26.
I believe that, besides Jesus himself, there is no more powerful intercessor for us that Mary because I believe Our Lord will refuse her nothing.
Whew! That’s a lot, but it’s what I believe. And I love her as my mother. I do not worship her. I worship the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.
E
Eden
Guest
Could you please share your sources about marriage in Biblical times?
I think you are mistaking the difference between a marriage being “valid” and a marriage being “indissoluble”.
“At the end of a wedding, the minister announces that the couple has become man and wife. They exchanged vows, and so they are married—without having consummated the marriage yet. When the marriage is consummated, the marriage—which was already valid—becomes indissoluble. So Joseph and Mary’s marriage was a real marriage, even if it was never consummated.”
“In regard to it not being natural, the prophet Isaiah said that God’s ways are not like our ways (Is. 55:8–9). When the Second Person of the Trinity is in your wife’s womb, you can expect to have a different marriage than most folks!”
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0007sbs.asp
Also, Joseph and Mary were married under the Old Covenant and so their marriage wasn’t the Christian sacrament, and wouldn’t have been truly indissoluble in any case.
I think you are mistaking the difference between a marriage being “valid” and a marriage being “indissoluble”.
“At the end of a wedding, the minister announces that the couple has become man and wife. They exchanged vows, and so they are married—without having consummated the marriage yet. When the marriage is consummated, the marriage—which was already valid—becomes indissoluble. So Joseph and Mary’s marriage was a real marriage, even if it was never consummated.”
“In regard to it not being natural, the prophet Isaiah said that God’s ways are not like our ways (Is. 55:8–9). When the Second Person of the Trinity is in your wife’s womb, you can expect to have a different marriage than most folks!”
catholic.com/thisrock/2000/0007sbs.asp
Also, Joseph and Mary were married under the Old Covenant and so their marriage wasn’t the Christian sacrament, and wouldn’t have been truly indissoluble in any case.
I
itsjustdave1988
Guest
Have you read the writings of the first century bishop of Antioch, St. Ignatius? He was a student of the apostle St. John who was a direct eyewitness to Jesus. HE WAS A FIRST CENTURY WITNESS WHO DESCRIBES CATHOLICISM, NOT PROTESTANTISM. Seven letters that he wrote are still extant. If you read them, you will come to understand why Catholics assert that the historical evidence support only their view that it was their Church that the apostles established in the name of Jesus Christ. Ignatius (AD 50-110), having learned his Christianity from the apostle John directly, described his Church as the Catholic Church, just as a Catholic would describe his Church today, complete with the Church in Rome which “holds the presidency.”
E
Eden
Guest
I suggest you try it with an open mind. You could even pray to Jesus, “Catholics are telling me that your mother can hear my prayers. Is that true? If it is, please let me know that truth.” I know that there are converts from Protestant faiths here on this forum who had a hard time with Mary at the beginning of their conversions. Maybe they could share their stories of trepidation about praying to Mary and their discovery that she does hear us.
BTW - I wanted to ask you, singinbeauty, do you believe that angels can hear you?
S
Scott_Waddell
Guest
I would also suggest that in the very least case, Mary (or any saint) does not even necessarily have to hear the prayers. If a saint were to pray, “O God, grant the petitions of all those asking for me to pray for them according to Your will.” this would cover it all so to speak.
Scott
I
itsjustdave1988
Guest
Singinbeauty,
The NT Church of the Bible had ONE GUY as the chief minister. There were many ministers, but the NT Church was led by one human being – Peter. This is the NT Church–many ministers, but only one chief minsiter. This is in agreement with the commonly accepted PROTESTANT understanding of Scripture.
See here:
**Upon this Rock … is the rock of Matt 16:18 Peter? - **View
ONE GUY led the Church according to the Bible. This is what the Bible teaches as this is what God intended.
See here:
**Unity of Command … not just a good idea, but biblically established **- View
What Church still professes this to be true today? Only the Catholic Church.
Non-Catholics will assert that one guy lead their congregation (their pastor), but fall short of professing one guy lead all of Christianity. I find that rather baffling and more than just a little unconvincing, as in NT times, one guy DID lead all of Christianity…Peter. The Bible insists upon unity of command but only non-Catholics reject it. This is just another Biblical reason that the Church established by the apostles in the name of Jesus was the Catholic Church.
See also:
Bind and Loose and the Keys of the Kingdom - View
The evidences for being Catholic are Biblical, historical, and reasonable.
The NT Church of the Bible had ONE GUY as the chief minister. There were many ministers, but the NT Church was led by one human being – Peter. This is the NT Church–many ministers, but only one chief minsiter. This is in agreement with the commonly accepted PROTESTANT understanding of Scripture.
See here:
**Upon this Rock … is the rock of Matt 16:18 Peter? - **View
ONE GUY led the Church according to the Bible. This is what the Bible teaches as this is what God intended.
See here:
**Unity of Command … not just a good idea, but biblically established **- View
What Church still professes this to be true today? Only the Catholic Church.
Non-Catholics will assert that one guy lead their congregation (their pastor), but fall short of professing one guy lead all of Christianity. I find that rather baffling and more than just a little unconvincing, as in NT times, one guy DID lead all of Christianity…Peter. The Bible insists upon unity of command but only non-Catholics reject it. This is just another Biblical reason that the Church established by the apostles in the name of Jesus was the Catholic Church.
See also:
Bind and Loose and the Keys of the Kingdom - View
The evidences for being Catholic are Biblical, historical, and reasonable.
S
scylla
Guest
Don’t take offense to the phrase Nestorian heresy he wasn’t intending to offend you, he was referring to an ancient heresy in the Church in which people contended that Jesus was 2 distinct persons in one.
carm.org/heresy/nestorianism.htm
This is a protestant site so you can be sure there isn’t any “Catholic sneakery” in that link
Unfortunately there are many who want to remove the notion of God being fully human in Jesus, just to not agree with the Theotokos title of Mary. That was the point he was trying to make.
As you can see, we don’t worship Mary, we do honor her and make sure that her title reflects the divinity of Jesus Christ fully man and fully God.
God Bless
Scylla
It would help if you would specify who started the Catholic Church and then we could see how it got invented by this “man” or possibly “Man” If you could do then and specify all the beliefs he invented then it would be much more helpful to your assertion that it isn’t the Church started by Jesus Christ. This is not to antagonize you as the truth should be easy to explain. I will just read your posts and not answer unless you ask me to as there are plenty of Catholics looking to share with you.
carm.org/heresy/nestorianism.htm
This is a protestant site so you can be sure there isn’t any “Catholic sneakery” in that link
Unfortunately there are many who want to remove the notion of God being fully human in Jesus, just to not agree with the Theotokos title of Mary. That was the point he was trying to make.
As you can see, we don’t worship Mary, we do honor her and make sure that her title reflects the divinity of Jesus Christ fully man and fully God.
God Bless
Scylla
It would help if you would specify who started the Catholic Church and then we could see how it got invented by this “man” or possibly “Man” If you could do then and specify all the beliefs he invented then it would be much more helpful to your assertion that it isn’t the Church started by Jesus Christ. This is not to antagonize you as the truth should be easy to explain. I will just read your posts and not answer unless you ask me to as there are plenty of Catholics looking to share with you.
M
mercygate
Guest
Hm. Interesting observation. What if I were to say, “since I don’t believe that Jesus can hear me I don’t think it would be much of a point to try to talk to him now . . .” – Get it?
Either Mary can hear you or she cannot – doesn’t depend on whether you believe it or not. As a former Protestant, I know how easy it is to choke on Mary. Scott Hahn said, shortly before coming into the Church: I only have 3 problems remaining with the Catholic Church: Mary, Mary and Mary. :yup: But she has a way of letting you know that she’s looking out for you, drawing you towards her Son . . .
C
Church_Militant
Guest
I’m sorry MG, I wasn’t refering to you but SIB. I knew you know the history, (also one of the confirming factors in my own life as well).
I agree that many n-Cs don’t know it and also take the same position as our friend here. I’m not blaming her at all, as I don’t think she’s been in any way malicious in her posts to date. (Thanks Be To God and God bless her heart!). Frankly I wish all n-Cs were as cool as she’s been so far.
Stick around nice lady!
Pax tecum,
- Status