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E.E.N.S
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“Once Saved, Always Saved.”
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Singinbeauty
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As for our Marian debate that has been going on here I do want to pose a question for all on this board.
Why wouldn’t God use a NORMAL human being who is as imperfect as the rest of us to bring in His PERFECT Son? Wouldn’t that be the ultimate message to us that God uses even the humblest of the humble to do His awesome work. To show that even a WOMAN (look how women were viewed in those days) who was poor and basically a nobody can make a major difference when it comes to us and God. I don’t think that God would have to create someone just to have the sole purpose of giving birth to His Son and following Him showing a perfect example of how we should follow Him. By creating Mary without original sin how would it be a perfect example for us to follow her lead? She is without original sin so it is easier for her to drop everything and follow God’s will but if she was just like the rest of us it is MORE of an example because she would deal with the same life and temptations we would. By her being imperfect like the rest of us it would be more of a testament as to her laying down her life for God.
Why wouldn’t God use a NORMAL human being who is as imperfect as the rest of us to bring in His PERFECT Son? Wouldn’t that be the ultimate message to us that God uses even the humblest of the humble to do His awesome work. To show that even a WOMAN (look how women were viewed in those days) who was poor and basically a nobody can make a major difference when it comes to us and God. I don’t think that God would have to create someone just to have the sole purpose of giving birth to His Son and following Him showing a perfect example of how we should follow Him. By creating Mary without original sin how would it be a perfect example for us to follow her lead? She is without original sin so it is easier for her to drop everything and follow God’s will but if she was just like the rest of us it is MORE of an example because she would deal with the same life and temptations we would. By her being imperfect like the rest of us it would be more of a testament as to her laying down her life for God.
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Singinbeauty
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E.E.N.S. said:
Thank you… LOL… I think I have my brain screwed in a bit tight today…
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Mickey
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But then that would be a revision of Sacred Tradition, wouldn’t it?
Hippolytus
He [Jesus] was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle [Mary] was exempt from defilement and corruption (*Orat. In Illud, Dominus pascit me, in Gallandi, Bibl. Patrum, II, 496 *ante A.D. 235]).
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BibleReader
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There is a fundamental problem, apparently connected with Original Sin, which had to be solved before Mary could conceive Jesus in her womb. At a particular point in his relationship with God, Moses asked God if Moses could see God directly. God indicated that no one can see Him directly and live.
Apparently, Original-Sin-alienated human flesh is actually destroyed by just *being in the direct presence of *God almighty.
See Exodus 33:20.
One suspects that the hypostatic union of the Incarnation is an even more intimate connection than being in the direct presence of almighty God. I.e., had Mary not been immaculately conceived, her ovum would have been annihilated by the Incarnation, and Mary herself would have died at the time of the Incarnation.
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E.E.N.S
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A question I once asked myself!
I am just going to propose some thoughts:
If you had the ability to create your own mother, how would your create her?
What really is more humble; a Queen subjecting herself to someone, or a slave subjecting himself to someone?
Plus (now you don’t have to believe this), she told us herself in an apparition.
I believe it now, but I didn’t used to, so I will completely understand if this one rolls off your back like water off a ducks back.Sacred Scripture points to it implicitly (ableit not explicitly.)
Sacred Tradition sheds much light on this for us (as well as many other things that are only implicit in the Bible.)
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bamark
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Church Militant:
OT, I love that prayer. We say it after communion. It really lifts me up.
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Singinbeauty
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See, I can’t make that comparison because I do not believe that Mary is a Queen of any kind. She is the humble servant of God who laid down her life so that He may work within her to produce the Savior of our world. And it isn’t SOMEONE she subjected herself to it was GOD.
The question is… What would it take for you to put yourself in HER shoes? My thought is is that it is more of a testament for a REGULAR human being with free will, temptation, and original sin to follow this miraculous will of God than someone who it comes easy to. Because that is what we have to strive for. So to have Mary be that example, to be just like us but still be able to fully lay down her life and will to God makes it more believable to us that we may be able to do that also. If He were to keep sending PERFECT people down as an example for us to follow (i.e. Jesus) what hope do we have of knowing that it is a possibility for us to follow these examples. It almost tells us that we are to fail no matter what because they were made perfect yet we are not. So why try? If Mary was as imperfect as us, though, it tells us that it is possible and gives us something to strive for.
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Mickey
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We have many examples of Holy imperfect humans; the saints!
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mercygate
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As a convert myself, I struggled with Mary also – even though I was an Episcopalian and eventually came to accept the Marian dogmas years before I became Catholic. The clincher for me on this one was that Mary was not “more perfect” than Adam and Eve were when they were created. They had free will; Mary had free will. The were without original sin; Mary was without original sin. Gradually I came to recognize that this dogma is VERY deep and deeply embedded in the mystery of creation. Do I understand it? Not exactly, although I get flashes of quasi-intuition about it. But I trust the Church, so I accept it. Probably, because of an early strident anti-Catholic component to my religious education, I may never really “get it.” But I ask Our Lady to pray for me that I will come closer to understanding this mystery.
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E.E.N.S
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I wasn’t being literal, I thought that was clear. My point was that it is more humble for a person of high prestige (let’s say) to submit than a person of low prestige to submit to someone…if you saw a king bow down to an authority it shows a great act of humility, but if you saw a slave do it, it is almost expected…get what I was trying to say now?
There are plenty of examples of “imperfect” peolpe for us to look to, both biblically as well as historically…Noah, Abraham, Elijah, Moses, Paul, etc. (biblical)…St. Augustine, St. Francis of Assisi, etc. (historical).
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Mickey
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E.E.N.S
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2 Tim 4:8 - Paul says that there is laid up for him the crown of righteousness. The saints are crowned in heaven, and Mary is the greatest saint of all.
James 1:12 - those who endure will receive the crown of life which God has promised. Mary has received the crown of life by bringing eternal life to the world.
1 Peter 5:4 - when the chief Shepherd is manifested we will receive the unfading crown of glory.
Rev. 2:10 - Jesus will give the faithful unto death the crown of life. Jesus gave Mary His Mother the crown of life.
Rev. 12:1 - Mary, the “woman,” is crowned with twelve stars. She is Queen of heaven and earth and the Mother of the Church.
Wis. 5:16 - we will receive a glorious crown and a beautiful diadem from the hand of the Lord. Mary is with Jesus forever crowned in His glory.
“As the most glorious Mother of Christ, our Savior and God and the giver of life and immortality, has been endowed with life by him, she has received an eternal incorruptibility of the body together with him who has raised her up from the tomb and has taken her up to himself in a way known only to him.” *Modestus of Jerusalem, Encomium in dormitionnem Sanctissimae Dominae nostrae Deiparae semperque Virginis Mariae (PG 86-II,3306),(ante A.D. 634). *
“It was fitting …that the most holy-body of Mary, God-bearing body, receptacle of God, divinised, incorruptible, illuminated by divine grace and full glory …should be entrusted to the earth for a little while and raised up to heaven in glory, with her soul pleasing to God.” *Theoteknos of Livias, Homily on the Assumption (ante A.D. 650). *
Amen!
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Vincent1560
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But Christ did not come in his “full glory” (for lack of a better term) which is what Moses was cautioned against.
Phillipians 2: “5 Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God, 7 but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a bondservant, and coming in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.”
His birth and invetro development were part of coming in the likness of man. He humbled himself to the point of going through all parts of the lifecycle. Just as sinful beings met , talked, dined, and lived with Christ with no ill effect, so I believe is the case of Mary when she was pregnant with him. Obviously Christ shielded man from the full force of his omnipotant eternal being by coming in the likeness of man. And I see no scriptural evidence that Mary was perfect, and plenty that contradicts anyone being perfect. “all have sinned…” and this doesn’t apply to Christ because he came in the appearance of man while not ceasing to be God, but it has to apply to Mary unless you believe her to be a goddess or angel which no Catholic or Protestant that I know of does. This is because there are only three biblical categories of rational beings. God, angels/fallen angels and men.
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E.E.N.S
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I addressed this already, but I will re-post it again for you.
Rom. 3:23 - Some Protestants use this verse “all have sinned” in an attempt to prove that Mary was also with sin. But "all have sinned " only means that all are subject to original sin. Mary was spared from original sin by God, not herself. The popular analogy is God let us fall in the mud puddle, and cleaned us up afterward through baptism. In Mary’s case, God did not let her enter the mud puddle.
Rom. 3:23 - “all have sinned” also refers only to those able to commit sin. This is not everyone. For example, infants, the retarded, and the senile cannot sin.
Rom. 3:23 - finally, “all have sinned,” but Jesus must be an exception to this rule. This means that Mary can be an exception as well. Note that the Greek word for all is “pantes.”
1 Cor. 15:22 - in Adam all (“pantes”) have died, and in Christ all (“pantes”) shall live. This proves that “all” does not mean “every single one.” This is because not all have died (such as Enoch and Elijah who were taken up to heaven), and not all will go to heaven (because Jesus said so).
Rom. 5:12 - Paul says that death spread to all (“pantes”) men. Again, this proves that “all” does not mean “every single one” because death did not spread to all men (as we have seen with Enoch and Elijah).
Rom. 5:19 - here Paul says “many (not all) were made sinners.” Paul uses “polloi,” not “pantes.” Is Paul contradicting what he said in Rom. 3:23? Of course not. Paul means that all are subject to original sin, but not all reject God.
Rom. 3:10-11 - Protestants also use this verse to prove that all human beings are sinful and thus Mary must be sinful. But see Psalm 14 which is the basis of the verse.
Psalm 14 - this psalm does not teach that all humans are sinful. It only teaches that, among the wicked, all are sinful. The righteous continue to seek God.
Psalm 53:1-3 - “there is none that does good” expressly refers to those who have fallen away. Those who remain faithful do good, and Jesus calls such faithful people “good.”
Luke 18:19 - Jesus says, “No one is good but God alone.” But then in Matt. 12:35, Jesus also says “The good man out of his good treasure…” So Jesus says no one is good but God, and then calls another person good.
Rom. 9:11 - God distinguished between Jacob and Esau in the womb, before they sinned. Mary was also distinguished from the rest of humanity in the womb by being spared by God from original sin.
Luke 1:47 - Mary calls God her Savior. Some Protestants use this to denigrate Mary. Why? Of course God is Mary’s Savior! She was freed from original sin in the womb (unlike us who are freed from sin outside of the womb), but needed a Savior as much as the rest of humanity.
Luke 1:48 - Mary calls herself lowly. But any creature is lowly compared to God. For example, in Matt. 11:29, even Jesus says He is lowly in heart. Lowliness is a sign of humility, which is the greatest virtue of holiness, because it allows us to empty ourselves and receive the grace of God to change our sinful lives.
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Vincent1560
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E.E.N.S. said:
I have a quick question. Is this your opinion and the Catholic church’s or just yours? I was just curious because I thought that Catholics would regard Peter as the greatest Saint given their views on the level of authority Christ gave to him. But then again if you do regard Mary as never having sinned, I can see where you would come to that conclusion. And on this line of thinking, how does the Catholic Church conclude someone is in heaven? I have heard that they check reports of miracles, but scripturaly the ability to perform miracles is not a sure sign of holiness i.e. the magicians Moses went up against, and the fact that the NW reveals that in the last days signs and wonders and false prophets will be used to deceive us. I am not saying that any of the Catholic saints are or were of course, just curious how the pope know for certain someone is in heaven and are such declarations considered infallible by the Catholic church.
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mercygate
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Vincent-- good questions. All of 'em have answers. But take it to another thread (or look up some old threads). Gotta fly! Hope somebody jumps in with some links for ya!
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Vincent1560
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E.E.N.S.:
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Vincent1560
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sorry I wasn’t trying to be argumentative. I was aware of our previous discussion, was just responding to the other poster, because I believe the argument to be a good one. The problem I have with your analysis is the assumption that anyone can not be subject to original sin. According to the confessions of St. Augustine Book 1 (to site a Catholic source )
Hear, O God. Alas, for man’s sin! So saith man, and Thou pitiest him; for Thou madest him, but sin in him Thou madest not. Who remindeth me of the sins of my infancy? for in Thy sight none is pure from sin, not even the infant whose life is but a day upon the earth. 25 Who remindeth me? doth not each little infant, in whom I see what of myself I remember not? What then was my sin? was it that I hung upon the breast and cried? for should I now so do for food suitable to my age, justly should I be laughed at and reproved. What I then did was worthy reproof; but since I could not understand reproof, custom and reason forbade me to be reproved. For those habits, when grown, we root out and cast away. Now no man, though he prunes, wittingly casts away what is good. 26 Or was it then good, even for a while, to cry for what, if given, would hurt? bitterly to resent, that persons free, and its own elders, yea, the very authors of its birth, served it not? that many besides, wiser than it, obeyed not the nod of its good pleasure? to do its best to strike and hurt, because commands were not obeyed, which had been obeyed to its hurt? The weakness then of infant limbs, not its will, is its innocence. Myself have seen and known even a baby envious; it could not speak, yet it turned pale and looked bitterly on its foster brother. Who knows not this? Mothers and nurses tell you that they allay these things by I know not what remedies. Is that too innocence, when the fountain of milk is flowing in rich abundance, not to endure one to share it, though in extremest need, and whose very life as yet depends thereon? We bear gently with all this, not as being no or slight evils, but because they will disappear as years increase; for, though tolerated now, the very same tempers are utterly intolerable when found in riper years.
Thus even infants according to Augutine are with sin and there truly is no one who is blameless. Can you show me scripturally how Mary could possibly escape original sin? If God could make Mary not subject to original sin and able to never fall into sin, then surely he would have done so for the rest of us and spared himself an agonizing crucifiction which bore the weight of the sins of the whole world, not to mention sparing those whom he loved enough to undergo such a horrendous experience from having to live a life filled with sin and the self loathing and evil that comes from it.
I am sorry if I sound a bit aggresive, I am sure you hold your convictions as sincerely as I hold mine. But given the aforementioned ramifications I am sure you will understand why I find this doctrine of Mary’s perpetual perfection as being very hard to find plausible.
)Hear, O God. Alas, for man’s sin! So saith man, and Thou pitiest him; for Thou madest him, but sin in him Thou madest not. Who remindeth me of the sins of my infancy? for in Thy sight none is pure from sin, not even the infant whose life is but a day upon the earth. 25 Who remindeth me? doth not each little infant, in whom I see what of myself I remember not? What then was my sin? was it that I hung upon the breast and cried? for should I now so do for food suitable to my age, justly should I be laughed at and reproved. What I then did was worthy reproof; but since I could not understand reproof, custom and reason forbade me to be reproved. For those habits, when grown, we root out and cast away. Now no man, though he prunes, wittingly casts away what is good. 26 Or was it then good, even for a while, to cry for what, if given, would hurt? bitterly to resent, that persons free, and its own elders, yea, the very authors of its birth, served it not? that many besides, wiser than it, obeyed not the nod of its good pleasure? to do its best to strike and hurt, because commands were not obeyed, which had been obeyed to its hurt? The weakness then of infant limbs, not its will, is its innocence. Myself have seen and known even a baby envious; it could not speak, yet it turned pale and looked bitterly on its foster brother. Who knows not this? Mothers and nurses tell you that they allay these things by I know not what remedies. Is that too innocence, when the fountain of milk is flowing in rich abundance, not to endure one to share it, though in extremest need, and whose very life as yet depends thereon? We bear gently with all this, not as being no or slight evils, but because they will disappear as years increase; for, though tolerated now, the very same tempers are utterly intolerable when found in riper years.
Thus even infants according to Augutine are with sin and there truly is no one who is blameless. Can you show me scripturally how Mary could possibly escape original sin? If God could make Mary not subject to original sin and able to never fall into sin, then surely he would have done so for the rest of us and spared himself an agonizing crucifiction which bore the weight of the sins of the whole world, not to mention sparing those whom he loved enough to undergo such a horrendous experience from having to live a life filled with sin and the self loathing and evil that comes from it.
I am sorry if I sound a bit aggresive, I am sure you hold your convictions as sincerely as I hold mine. But given the aforementioned ramifications I am sure you will understand why I find this doctrine of Mary’s perpetual perfection as being very hard to find plausible.
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Mickey
Guest
I’m guessing that if you were the Ark of the New Covenant; the Mother of the Word made Flesh; and if your womb was the temple of our Lord, you would have been immaculately conceived.
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