Mary's assumption

[babochka]

I agree Lily. But the DISTINCTION we are arguing is whether the Church can teach something even though it is NOT dogmatically declared.

So, for example, if you read Munificentissimus Deus in its entirety, you will see that it summarizes the Church’s long held belief in not only the Assumption of the Virgin Mary, but in her death as well. It was so firmly believed for so many ages, that it wasn’t even questioned until recent times.

But St. Pope John Paul II has stated plainly and clearly exactly how we are to understand the phrase in Munificentissimus Deus “having completed the course of her earthly life”

IOW, for all intents and purposes the Church DOES teach OFFICIALLY that the Virgin Mary DID Die.

Because there is not a forceful statement to the effect that the Virgin Mary died, and because a Euphemism for death is used instead, many have incorrectly assumed that the Church is being INTENTIONALLY vague, either because the Church doesn’t know or because it is somehow up for grabs.

But Saint Pope John Paul II HAS ASSURED US, that that is NOT the case at all. IOW, the Blessed Pope JPII says that the Dogmatic definition on the Assumption did not want to be overburdened with other issues AT THAT TIME.

But the adversaries are quick to jump on the fact that there is NOT a dogmatic definition on the death of the Virgin Mary, and therefore the Church DOES NOT teach us she died, when IN FACT, the Church HAS ALWAYS taught that the Virgin Mary died.

Furthermore, these same adversaries, are not only willing to brush off the words of our own Holy Saint and Pope, and the text of Munificentissimus Deus, but they likewise brush off the everlasting teaching of the entire Eastern Church as well!!

I have often said that IF they want to know the mind of the Church, (as expressed in Munificentissimus Deus) then they will believe that the Virgin Mary did die.

I have not said that they MUST believe it. It is their choice, because it is not currently De Fide, like a dogmatic definition.

Thank you for summarizing this so nicely. I find that I don’t have the energy to go through this again.

The Church teaches and has always taught, through the ordinary magisterium, that Mary died. We learn this from the Church Fathers, from our liturgy, from tradition, and finally, from Munificentissimus Deus itself. It is not unclear.

A male-only priesthood has never been taught by the extraordinary magesterium (papal ex-cathedra proclamations and ecumenical councils), but that doesn’t mean that Catholics are free to believe that women can become priests. We are called to conform our wills to the teaching of the Church, even if that teaching has not been solemnly defined. The ordinary magesterium of the Church is considered to be infallible.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

Thank you for summarizing this so nicely. I find that I don’t have the energy to go through this again.

The Church teaches and has always taught, through the ordinary magisterium, that Mary died. We learn this from the Church Fathers, from our liturgy, from tradition, and finally, from Munificentissimus Deus itself. It is not unclear.

A male-only priesthood has never been taught by the extraordinary magesterium (papal ex-cathedra proclamations and ecumenical councils), but that doesn’t mean that Catholics are free to believe that women can become priests. We are called to conform our wills to the teaching of the Church, even if that teaching has not been solemnly defined. The ordinary magesterium of the Church is considered to be infallible.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church does state that even the Church is not free to allow women to enter the priesthood since Christ was a man and chose only men as his apostles. I’d give you the number, but I don’t have my catechism with me now, but it’s in the section on Holy Orders, which is a fairly short section.

 

[babochka]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church does state that even the Church is not free to allow women to enter the priesthood since Christ was a man and chose only men as his apostles. I’d give you the number, but I don’t have my catechism with me now, but it’s in the section on Holy Orders, which is a fairly short section.

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is not the extraordinary magesterium. You are making my point, which is that it is not necessary for something to be infallibly proclaimed by the Pope or an Ecumenical Council to be a teaching of the Church.

The Catechism also teaches the dormition of Mary, which, in spite of opinions to the contrary, is her bodily death. This is clear in the historical and current use of the word in Eastern Christianity. It is not ambivalent, it does not indicate some sort of death that isn’t really death. It is death.

**. . . also in her Assumption **
966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity;** in your Dormition you did not leave the world,** O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509

 

[AmbroseSJ]

babochka:

Thank you for summarizing this so nicely. I find that I don’t have the energy to go through this again.

You (and Lily) are very welcome.

It’s gratifying to know that at least some can understand what I am saying.

 

[Memaw]

John the Baptist was NOT conceived without sin but was sanctified in his mothers womb at the visit of the Blessed Mother. That is scriptural and not up for question. We are Sanctified too at Baptism. Mary was Conceived without Original sin. And how do you know “lack of original sin” is not sufficient to preserve man from death?? Adam and Eve would not have died if they had not sinned. Death is the result of Original sin. Mary NEVER had original or personal sin. God Bless, Memaw

 

[adrift]

Sadly, you are cherry picking quotes and building an entire platform of “church teaching” around it.

Sadly you didn’t read my post very carefully.

You ARE free to believe that she died or didn’t right now. However, you are incorrect to say that the Church has not always taught that the Virgin Mary died.

I have already pointed out you did not read my post very carefully. No where did I state your straw man argument what the Church always taught

So it IS a Church teaching, although it is NOT a dogma. You are free to believe as you wish. But IF YOU WANT TO BELIEVE with the mind of the Church, then you will believe that she died before her Assumption.

What I did ask was what is taught by the Catechism. You didn’t address it. If I did indeed “cherry picked” you would be able to address the Catechism as a whole.

The Church NEVER dogmatically declares something that was never taught, NEVER!

You have already stated

So it IS a Church teaching, although it is NOT a dogma

Why isn’t it stated in the Catechism that she died instead of what is stated?
The Catechism mentions her Assumption only twice

also in her Assumption

966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death."508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians:

In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.509
974 The Most Blessed Virgin Mary, when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven, where she already shares in the glory of her Son’s Resurrection, anticipating the resurrection of all members of his Body.

 

[adrift]

Adrift I don’t think you are quite up to speed on the discussion with Memaw .

Why is it those who are proposing that Mary died is what the Church teaches resort to ad hominems?

 

[adrift]

A male-only priesthood has never been taught by the extraordinary magesterium (papal ex-cathedra proclamations and ecumenical councils), but that doesn’t mean that Catholics are free to believe that women can become priests. We are called to conform our wills to the teaching of the Church, even if that teaching has not been solemnly defined. The ordinary magesterium of the Church is considered to be infallible.

The Church has settled the matter of priesthood but if Mary died or didn’t has not been settled.

 

[adrift]

The Catechism of the Catholic Church is not the extraordinary magesterium. You are making my point, which is that it is not necessary for something to be infallibly proclaimed by the Pope or an Ecumenical Council to be a teaching of the Church.

The Catechism also teaches the dormition of Mary, which, in spite of opinions to the contrary, is her bodily death. This is clear in the historical and current use of the word in Eastern Christianity. It is not ambivalent, it does not indicate some sort of death that isn’t really death. It is death.

Definition of DORMITION

Feast of the Falling Asleep of the Blessed Virgin Mary. The Byzantine name for the Assumption, and the title of the famous Benedictine church on Mount Zion in Jerusalem. (Etym. Latin dormitio, sleeping; from dormire, to sleep.)

 

[francisca]

Jesus died bearing the wounds of our sins; he died as sinless as he always was. There is a great difference.

You guys has made very good point regarding Jesus died eventhough he was sinless.
He died for our sins.
He also ressurected and defeat death.

Now that I re-think about this, I find it’s not so impossible to reconcile “Immaculate Conception” with her death (if so), because many Saint’s and Martyrs died in the participation of Christ works. The church (& Mary & The Saints) experience death in the participation of Christ works, so that we will be glorified together with Him.

Thanks for this one

I also read that Paul’s in his epistles use the word “fall asleep” for the death of the saints. In reality all the saints experience death becasue we all are waiting to be glorified together with Christ. There are two people in the Old Testaments who never experience death : Enoch and Prophet Elijah.

Enoch walked with God (Genesis 4:22-25)
Elijah is taken in the Chariot of Fire (2Kings 2:11, 2Kings 6:17)

 

[AmbroseSJ]

The Church has settled the matter of priesthood but if Mary died or didn’t has not been settled.

This is a photo of the memorial chapel in the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington DC of Our Lady of Ta’ Pinu:

http://www.nationalshrine.com/atf/cf/{b0534716-4524-407d-a065-b68c4bfcb4be}/13_Our_Lady_of_Ta_Pinu.jpg

According to tradition: "On 22 June 1883, a Gozitan peasant and worker in a field, Karmni Grima, apparently heard a female voice coming from the Chapel Pinu, that she was walking past. The voice was calling her in Maltese, and telling her “Ejja…ejja!” (“Come…come!”) When she entered the chapel, the same voice told her to “recite three Hail Mary’s in honour of the three days that my body rested in the tomb.” Grima kept this event a secret for two years.[2] When she finally told a friend, Francesco Portelli. His response was to say that he too had heard a woman’s voice at about the same time as Grima had. "

The actual chapel (now a Basilica) in the Maltese Islands was visited by popes:
On 26 May 1990 Pope John Paul II celebrated Mass at the Basilica during his pastoral visit to Malta.

On 18 April 2010, when visiting Malta, Pope Benedict XVI donated and placed a Golden Rose in front of the devotional image of Our Lady Of Ta’ Pinu which was brought over from Gozo to Malta for this special occasion. The Pope invited everybody to “Pray to her under the title queen of the family.”

There is a plaque in the National Shrine of the Immaculate Conception with the Icon of Our Lady, surrounded by Angels arisen from the tomb, (shown above) which describes how Our Lady wants us to know that she did die and that her body spent 3 days in the tomb.

Just like the visions of Fatima, they are approved by the Church, but are not de fide. Still they are facts. And facts are stubborn things…

 

[Blue_Horizon]

Definition of DORMITION

Adrift do you also hold that airplane blackboxes are actually black?
Don’t be fooled. If you go into the matter you will find it honours the death of Mary.

 

[Lily_Bernans]

You guys has made very good point regarding Jesus died eventhough he was sinless.
He died for our sins.
He also ressurected and defeat death.

Now that I re-think about this, I find it’s not so impossible to reconcile “Immaculate Conception” with her death (if so), because many Saint’s and Martyrs died in the participation of Christ works. The church (& Mary & The Saints) experience death in the participation of Christ works, so that we will be glorified together with Him.

Thanks for this one

I also read that Paul’s in his epistles use the word “fall asleep” for the death of the saints. In reality all the saints experience death becasue we all are waiting to be glorified together with Christ. There are two people in the Old Testaments who never experience death : Enoch and Prophet Elijah.

Enoch walked with God (Genesis 4:22-25)
Elijah is taken in the Chariot of Fire (2Kings 2:11, 2Kings 6:17)

Good for you! Yes, we will all be glorified together! Have a great day!

 

[francisca]

Good for you! Yes, we will all be glorified together! Have a great day!

You too

 

[Memaw]

The dogma does not Teach Mary did not die Memaw.

I am still interested to hear your understanding of what constitutes official Church teaching - and why you seem to think Encyclicals do not qualify?

The Dogma deliberately does not teach that Mary died. Could have easy enough, was a perfect time to do so if the Holy Spirit wanted us to know so. That’s enough for me! Also, where in the world did I ever say that Encyclicals do not qualify? You seem to think you can think for me. Why are you soooo determined to tell me how I believe??? God Bless, Memaw

 

[babochka]

Definition of DORMITION

As your definition provided, Dormition does mean falling-asleep. Here is an obituary for Bishop Basil Schott, former Byzantine Catholic Metropolitan
:
archpitt.org/metropolitan-archbishop-basil-m-schott-ofm/

Archbishop Basil fell asleep in the Lord** on June 10, 2010. At his largely attended funeral at St. John the Baptist Cathedral in Munhall, Pa., Metropolitan Nicholas Smisko of the Carpatho-Russian Orthodox Church of Johnstown, Pa. spoke of the deep friendship and esteem that he shared with the Archbishop. He mentioned their ecumenical endeavors, the meetings of their seminarians, and their times together both in prayer and socially. (Metropolitan Nicholas also was afflicted with cancer, and fell asleep in the Lord on March 13, 2011.)

This is just how we (Eastern Christians) speak of the death of a Christian. Using the word “dormition” (falling asleep) in the above cases does not in any way imply that we believe that Metropolitan Basil and Metropolitan Nicholas were also assumed, body and soul, into heaven.

Dormition isn’t some sort of “special death” reserved for Mary. It is death. We also believe that our Blessed Mother was resurrected by her son and is now in heaven, body and soul and when we refer to and celebrate Mary’s Dormtion, we are speaking of and celebrating both events. Western Catholics only mention her Assumption liturgically.

It is true that the Feast of the Dormition is considered to be synonymous with the Feast of the Assumption, in English. We even have a local Orthodox Church named The Church of the Assumption. But the words themselves mean different things.

If you want to believe that Mary didn’t die, fine. Please don’t hijack our feast to try to prove that it is true. The liturgical texts (particularly Vepsers) make it clear that our Feast of the Dormition is clearly about her death and resurrection. The name of the Feast in the West was changed to the Feast of the Assumption. The emphasis in both celebrations is, of course, her joining her son in heaven, body and soul.

“The Source of Life is laid in a grave and transferred to life, and her tomb becomes a ladder to heaven” -Vespers of the Dormition

 

[Lily_Bernans]

As your definition provided, Dormition does mean falling-asleep. Here is an obituary for Bishop Basil Schott, former Byzantine Catholic Metropolitan
:
archpitt.org/metropolitan-archbishop-basil-m-schott-ofm/

This is just how we (Eastern Christians) speak of the death of a Christian. Using the word “dormition” (falling asleep) in the above cases does not in any way imply that we believe that Metropolitan Basil and Metropolitan Nicholas were also assumed, body and soul, into heaven.

Dormition isn’t some sort of “special death” reserved for Mary. It is death. We also believe that our Blessed Mother was resurrected by her son and is now in heaven, body and soul and when we refer to and celebrate Mary’s Dormtion, we are speaking of and celebrating both events. Western Catholics only mention her Assumption liturgically.

It is true that the Feast of the Dormition is considered to be synonymous with the Feast of the Assumption, in English. We even have a local Orthodox Church named The Church of the Assumption. But the words themselves mean different things.

In the Latin Rite, too. When we pray for others during Mass (the pope, our bishop, etc.) we pray for those who have died as well, and it is termed “fallen asleep.”

 

[babochka]

In the Latin Rite, too. When we pray for others during Mass (the pope, our bishop, etc.) we pray for those who have died as well, and it is termed “fallen asleep.”

So why is there confusion? I always assumed it was an Eastern thing, but if it is clear that Dormtion means “falling asleep” and that is common terminology in the west, why do people insist that in this case, “falling asleep” must mean something else? The term is biblical.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

So why is there confusion? I always assumed it was an Eastern thing, but if it is clear that Dormtion means “falling asleep” and that is common terminology in the west, why do people insist that in this case, “falling asleep” must mean something else? The term is biblical.

This may be the fall out of the schism. The Latin Church DOES suffer the loss of the Eastern Church and all of its Liturgy and Theology.

There was a time when the West was in perfect agreement with the East. Even TODAY, the West is in perfect agreement with the East on the matter of the Dormition and Assumption of Our Lady.

Unfortunately, in the West, some of the faithful have gotten caught up in many errors related to infallibility and dogmas of the Church. Because of that, a regrettable legalistic approach to religion has developed and spread like a cancer.

If only the faithful in the West could appreciate their own Liturgy and what it teaches them, and realize that it is a MOST truthful reflection of their Faith: Not just dogmatic declarations (which are also necessary.)

That is why when we speak of this matter (the death of the Virgin Mary) the Eastern Rite Catholics and Orthodox will quote from the Liturgy. However, to some of the Latins (not all by any means) this sort of evidence is irrelevant since it is not dogmatically taught, which is all they will hearken to.

 

[babochka]

Why isn’t it stated in the Catechism that she died instead of what is stated?
The Catechism mentions her Assumption only twice

As you mentioned, the Catechism only twice mentions her Assumpion, and once mentions her Dormtion.

As to why it isn’t stated that she died? It is. The Catechism quotes the troparion of the Feast: “In giving birth you kept your virginity; in your Dormition you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life. You conceived the living God and, by your prayers, will deliver our souls from death.” ( The troparion is kind of like the collect.) Less poetically, one can read this: “… in your death, you did not leave the world, O Mother of God, but were joined to the source of Life.”

Something else I’ve never thought about before. The Catechism also states: "966 "Finally the Immaculate Virgin, preserved free from all stain of original sin, when the course of her earthly life was finished, was taken up body and soul into heavenly glory, and exalted by the Lord as Queen over all things, so that she might be the more fully conformed to her Son, the Lord of lords and conqueror of sin and death.“508 The Assumption of the Blessed Virgin is a singular participation in her Son’s Resurrection and an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians.”

If this is an anticipation of the resurrection of other Christians, does it not also mean that Mary’s Assumption is a resurrection, which presupposes bodily death? We will all be resurrected - just like Mary.