Mary's Perpetual Virginity, What's the Big Deal?

[FathersKnowBest]

It matters to non-Catholics because of the fact that Catholics pray to Mary instead of directly to God/Jesus. We, as Christians too, deny the idolization of Mary as above Christ in prayer because so many times in the Bible, Jesus tells us to pray to God, The Father. He never tells us to pray to His mother.

With regard to the papacy, we do not think that the Pope should be called The Holy Father, since to us there is only one Holy Father, who is God.

These are overwhelming reasons why non-Catholics deny the absolute truth of all of the dogmas of the Catholic Church.

…and this is why it matters!

Please, start a new thread on at least one of your objections stated above, and provide us a link to that thread. We’ll be happy to point out your errors .

 

[kmcarl56]

I assume you are talking about the statement about the papacy. Ok, I will.

 

[Randy_Carson]

That was my original question - “what’s the big deal?”

Throughout the thread I’ve said that I’m not denying her Perpetual Virginity, just asking questions.

Personally, I don’t see how it enhances her status nor Jesus’. That doesn’t mean I’m arguing against it. I just don’t see why it matters.

Every doctrine about Mary tells us something about Christ or something about ourselves or the Church. Mary’s perpetual virginity demonstrates her purity of heart and total love for God.

In 388, St. Ambrose of Milan wrote that Mary’s virginity was “so great an example of material virtue” because it demonstrated her total devotion to Jesus. In Mary, we see an example of the purity our own hearts must have in total dedication to God. Her virginity also tells us something about the Church, which, like Mary, is both mother to the faithful and “pure bride to her one husband” (2 Cor. 11:2).

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Every doctrine about Mary tells us something about Christ or something about ourselves or the Church. Mary’s perpetual virginity demonstrates her purity of heart and total love for God.

In 388, St. Ambrose of Milan wrote that Mary’s virginity was “so great an example of material virtue” because it demonstrated her total devotion to Jesus. In Mary, we see an example of the purity our own hearts must have in total dedication to God. Her virginity also tells us something about the Church, which, like Mary, is both mother to the faithful and “pure bride to her one husband” (2 Cor. 11:2).

First to me celibacy seems to be squandering a gift. I don’t see the inherent value of it. So I’m not sure why it’s lauded.

If her one true husband is the H.S. then she’s not married to Joseph or a polygamist.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Conceiving the Christ as a virgin I can see as important. Born without original sin and not knowing man she was a pure vessel to be the mother of Jesus. I’m not questioning the teaching but I don’t understand why is the perpetual virginity of Mary necessary or important? There isn’t anything inherently sinful or unclean about husband and wife having relations. I don’t see it as diminishing her in anyway. It’s what men and women were made by God to do.

Well tradition says Mary never ceased being a virgin, so we have to believe that.
It isn’t a problem that Mary WAS/IS a lifelong virgin, is it?

 

[FathersKnowBest]

First to me celibacy seems to be squandering a gift.

Squandering, or offering something back to God?

Abel’s sacrifice was giving something good that God had given him back to God. God honered that gift.

You don’t give God anything that ISN’T good.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

Squandering, or offering something back to God?

Abel’s sacrifice was giving something good that God had given him back to God. God honered that gift.

You don’t give God anything that ISN’T good.

I’m not sure the point you are trying to make. A sacrifice like Cain offered God a portion of the gift not all of it. To not take any of it seems to say that you know better. You don’t refuse the gift intirely. It seems ungrateful and a waste.

 

[zz912]

[BIBLEDRB][/BIBLEDRB]

I’m not sure the point you are trying to make. A sacrifice like Cain offered God a portion of the gift not all of it. To not take any of it seems to say that you know better. You don’t refuse the gift intirely. It seems ungrateful and a waste.

I’m curious as to your opinion about the words of Jesus and Paul on the good of celibacy.

 

[zz912]

1. It matters to non-Catholics because of the fact that Catholics often pray to Mary instead of directly to God/Jesus.
2. We, as devoted Christians, deny the idolization of Mary as above Christ in prayer because so many times in the Bible, Jesus tells us to pray to God, The Father.
3. He never tells us to pray to His mother, Mary, nor to give her sublime adoration.

Venturing off topic some, but wanted to point out some misunderstandings on your part.

1. We don’t pray to Mary INSTEAD of directly to God. We pray directly to God AND we pray to Mary to pray to God on our behalf. The two aren’t mutually exclusive, and the Bible supports the Catholic view.
2. Catholic deny the idolization of Mary as well. And Catholics deny that Mary is above Christ, or even on the same level as Him. She is a creature (the greatest of God’s creatures, but a creature nonetheless), while He is Creator.
3. Catholics give adoration (latria) to God alone. The saints receive honor (dulia) only. And in the Bible it tells us explicitly that we should pray for one another, that we are surrounded by a cloud of witnesses, and that the saints in heaven take our prayers to God.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

I’m curious as to your opinion about the words of Jesus and Paul on the good of celibacy.

I thought we covered that.

In short -

Jesus first spoke about the sanctity of marriage, if you weren’t cut out for that then be celibate. It wasn’t a call to celibacy. If it was the greatest good then we’d die out. It goes against “be fruitful and multiply”

Paul seemed to think that the second coming was immanent and there was no time to get married. He was wrong but well intentioned.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

I thought we covered that.

In short -

Jesus first spoke about the sanctity of marriage, if you weren’t cut out for that then be celibate.

There’s your problem. You’ve got that exactly backwards. At least, according to the actual WORDS of Jesus.

It wasn’t a call to celibacy. If it was the greatest good then we’d die out.

ONLY if many (most) were actually called to it.
Don’t see that happening any time soon.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

There’s your problem. You’ve got that exactly backwards. At least, according to the actual WORDS of Jesus.


ONLY if many (most) were actually called to it.
Don’t see that happening any time soon.

Read it, to me it’s clear. It’s better to marry as God intends, don’t get divorced except if she’s adulterous. It is the apostles who say it’s better not to marry if she is adulterous. Jesus says not everybody is cut out for marriage. If you aren’t cut out for marriage, stay chaste.

BTW It’s the same advice the Church gives Homosexuals.

[3] And there came to him the Pharisees tempting him, and saying: Is it lawful for a man to put away his wife for every cause? [4] Who answering, said to them: Have ye not read, that he who made man from the beginning, Made them male and female? And he said: [5] For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife, and they two shall be in one flesh.[6] Therefore now they are not two, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let no man put asunder.

[7] They say to him: Why then did Moses command to give a bill of divorce, and to put away? [8] He saith to them: Because Moses by reason of the hardness of your heart permitted you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. [9] And I say to you, that whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and he that shall marry her that is put away, committeth adultery.

[10] His disciples say unto him: If the case of a man with his wife be so, it is not expedient to marry.

[11] Who said to them: All men take not this word, but they to whom it is given. [12] For there are eunuchs, who were born so from their mother’ s womb: and there are eunuchs, who were made so by men: and there are eunuchs, who have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven. He that can take, let him take it.

 

[zz912]

I thought we covered that.

In short -

Jesus first spoke about the sanctity of marriage, if you weren’t cut out for that then be celibate. It wasn’t a call to celibacy. If it was the greatest good then we’d die out. It goes against “be fruitful and multiply”

Paul seemed to think that the second coming was immanent and there was no time to get married. He was wrong but well intentioned.

Matthew 19:3 Some Pharisees approached him, and tested him, saying, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause whatever?” 4 He said in reply, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.” 7 They said to him, “Then why did Moses command that the man give the woman a bill of divorce and dismiss [her]?” 8 He said to them, “Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery.” 10 [His] disciples said to him, “If that is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” 11 He answered, “Not all can accept [this] word, but only those to whom that is granted. 12 Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.”*

The apostles say it is better not to marry, and Jesus says that not everyone can do this, but ONLY those whom it is granted. Jesus is clear that celibacy is a special thing granted only to some.

He affirms this when He notes that some are celibate for the sake of the kingdom of God. And says that anyone who can accept it, should.

Where do you get the idea that Jesus was relegating it to a lesser status? As to your comments about the population dying out, that is not an issue here, as Jesus says that not everyone is called to the celibate life.

As for Paul, you might get the impression that he believed the second coming was imminent if you only read a few of his letters. Others though he is clear that we don’t know when it will be, and gives the impression that it is far off. And why do you think HE was wrong, and not yourself or your understanding of his writings?

 

[zz912]

Jesus says not everybody is cut out for marriage. If you aren’t cut out for marriage, stay chaste.

You got it exactly backwards. Jesus clearly says that not all are cut out for celibacy. See my post above.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Matthew 19:3 Some Pharisees approached him, and tested him, saying, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any cause whatever?” 4 He said in reply, “Have you not read that from the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female’ 5 and said, ‘For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh’? 6 So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore, what God has joined together, no human being must separate.” 7 They said to him, “Then why did Moses command that the man give the woman a bill of divorce and dismiss [her]?” 8 He said to them, “Because of the hardness of your hearts Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. 9 I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) and marries another commits adultery.” 10 [His] disciples said to him, “If that is the case of a man with his wife, it is better not to marry.” 11 He answered, “Not all can accept [this] word, but only those to whom that is granted.* 12 Some are incapable of marriage because they were born so; some, because they were made so by others; some, because they have renounced marriage for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Whoever can accept this ought to accept it.”

The apostles say it is better not to marry, and Jesus says that not everyone can do this, but ONLY those whom it is granted. Jesus is clear that celibacy is a special thing granted only to some.

He affirms this when He notes that some are celibate for the sake of the kingdom of God. And says that anyone who can accept it, should.

Where do you get the idea that Jesus was relegating it to a lesser status? As to your comments about the population dying out, that is not an issue here, as Jesus says that not everyone is called to the celibate life.

As for Paul, you might get the impression that he believed the second coming was imminent if you only read a few of his letters. Others though he is clear that we don’t know when it will be, and gives the impression that it is far off. And why do you think HE was wrong, and not yourself or your understanding of his writings?

I don’t see your reading of the text at all. He’s asked about divorce expounds on the vitues of marriage. Then says what to do if you aren’t called to marriage. Be chatse. Not all are called to it because we are called to be married.

As for Paul his position changes over time. 1st Cor are is first letters. He takes a longer view as his ministry progresses.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

I don’t see your reading of the text at all. He’s asked about divorce expounds on the vitues of marriage. Then says what to do if you aren’t called to marriage. Be chatse. Not all are called to it because we are called to be married.

So, you’re contending that Christ didn’t marry because He wasn’t able to stay chaste??

As for Paul his position changes over time. 1st Cor are is first letters. He takes a longer view as his ministry progresses.

Don’t you see? You’re doing just what Martin Luther did: taking one verse out of context and misinterpreting it, and then dismissing all the other sections that disprove your misinterpretation.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

So, you’re contending that Christ didn’t marry because He wasn’t able to stay chaste??

Don’t you see? You’re doing just what Martin Luther did: taking one verse out of context and misinterpreting it, and then dismissing all the other sections that disprove your misinterpretation.

Um no he was killed.

Read the text you can see the progression. He goes from its happening now, to soon to it won’t happen until we repent.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Um no he was killed.

Not until He was about 33. Much later than the marriageable age of most rabbis of the time.

Read the text you can see the progression. He goes from its happening now, to soon to it won’t happen until we repent.

Doesn’t change the message.

1Co 7:7 I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own special gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.
8 To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do.
9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion.

Notice how the “remain[ing] single” takes precidence. If you can’t remain single then it’s ok to marry.

That’s exactly 180 degrees away from the way you’re reading Christ’s words. YOU are telling us that IF you don’t think you can be married to one woman, THEN you should remain single. Either YOU have it backwards, or St. Paul does. Guess who I’m betting on!

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Not until He was about 33. Much later than the marriageable age of most rabbis of the time.

Doesn’t change the message.

1Co 7:7 I wish that all were as I myself am. But each has his own special gift from God, one of one kind and one of another.
8 To the unmarried and the widows I say that it is well for them to remain single as I do.
9 But if they cannot exercise self-control, they should marry. For it is better to marry than to be aflame with passion.

Notice how the “remain[ing] single” takes precidence. If you can’t remain single then it’s ok to marry.

That’s exactly 180 degrees away from the way you’re reading Christ’s words. YOU are telling us that IF you don’t think you can be married to one woman, THEN you should remain single. Either YOU have it backwards, or St. Paul does. Guess who I’m betting on!

He was destined to be sacrificed. Why leave a widow. He knew what was coming.

As for Paul I mean the second coming. In the early letters the time is now. Later he’s more open to the time. 1 Cor is an early letter. He thought Christ would come back in his lifetime. Why Marry if the world is going to end?

 

[FathersKnowBest]

He was destined to be sacrificed. Why leave a widow. He knew what was coming.

And He also taught by example.

If He had some reason to live as He did that was different, He would have explained it. And He did. In Matt 19:12.

As for Paul I mean the second coming.

I know what you meant. But even stipulating to what I deem to be a misinterpretation on your part, that still doesn’t explain why Paul is telling us something 180 degrees out of phase with what YOU are saying Christ intended.