Mary's Perpetual Virginity, What's the Big Deal?

[Roscoe_Turner]

And He also taught by example.

If He had some reason to live as He did that was different, He would have explained it. And He did. In Matt 19:12.

I know what you meant. But even stipulating to what I deem to be a misinterpretation on your part, that still doesn’t explain why Paul is telling us something 180 degrees out of phase with what YOU are saying Christ intended.

Paul thought the world was going to end. He was mistaken.

 

[Randy_Carson]

First to me celibacy seems to be squandering a gift. I don’t see the inherent value of it. So I’m not sure why it’s lauded.

6 While Jesus was in Bethany in the home of Simon the Leper, 7 a woman came to him with an alabaster jar of very expensive perfume, which she poured on his head as he was reclining at the table. 8 When the disciples saw this, they were indignant. “Why this waste?” they asked. (Mt 26:6-8)

Indeed.

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Paul thought the world was going to end. He was mistaken.

You’re wrong, but I’ll stipulate to your mistake (like I said above).

St. Paul was mistaken (according to you). And, therefore … what?

St. Paul is not to be trusted as an authoritative interpreter of Christ’s words?
Anything he wrote is not inspired?

What are you saying?

 

[Randy_Carson]

I thought we covered that.

In short -

Jesus first spoke about the sanctity of marriage, if you weren’t cut out for that then be celibate. It wasn’t a call to celibacy. If it was the greatest good then we’d die out. It goes against “be fruitful and multiply”

No, Roscoe. Jesus isn’t going against anything. Instead, He clearly suggests that celibacy is a gift that should be accepted by those who can. Here is the context:

8 Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. 9 I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.”

10 The disciples said to him, “If this is the situation between a husband and wife, it is better not to marry.” 11 Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word (about not divorcing), but only those to whom it has been given.

Jesus says divorce is not an option, and He acknowledges that not everyone can accept that fact. Then he shifts gears:

12 For there are eunuchs who were born that way, and there are eunuchs who have been made eunuchs by others—and there are those who choose to live like eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it.”

There are those who choose to [be celibate] for the sake of the kingdom…the one who can accept [the call to be celibate] should accept [the call]."

Is it okay, Roscoe, if some choose to remain celibate for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven? To devote themselves to lives of prayer and service to others?

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

You’re wrong, but I’ll stipulate to your mistake (like I said above).

St. Paul was mistaken (according to you). And, therefore … what?

St. Paul is not to be trusted as an authoritative interpreter of Christ’s words?
Anything he wrote is not inspired?

What are you saying?

I am saying that Paul thought the world was going to end any day. Christ would return. In that light it would be foolish to start planning a life, like taking a wife.

1 Cor 7:29

I tell you, brothers, the time is running out. From now on, let those having wives act as not having them,

He’s telling them to be chaste in marriage because the world is ending.

Jesus didn’t say that.

Later in the Chapter he says

12 To the rest* I say (not the Lord): if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she is willing to go on living with him, he should not divorce her;
13 and if any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he is willing to go on living with her, she should not divorce her husband.
14 For the unbelieving husband is made holy through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy through the brother. Otherwise your children would be unclean, whereas in fact they are holy.d
15 If the unbeliever separates,* however, let him separate. The brother or sister is not bound in such cases; God has called you to peace.
16 For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband; or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?

He’s adding another stipulation where Divorce is ok. Jesus said adultery is the only case.

Out of the Box I think Paul might have been over confident of the immediate return of Jesus and offered less than sound advice. He clearly says this is my advice not the Lords.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

No, Roscoe. Jesus isn’t going against anything. Instead, He clearly suggests that celibacy is a gift that should be accepted by those who can. Here is the context:

Jesus says divorce is not an option, and He acknowledges that not everyone can accept that fact. Then he shifts gears:

There are those who choose to [be celibate] for the sake of the kingdom…the one who can accept [the call to be celibate] should accept [the call]."

Is it okay, Roscoe, if some choose to remain celibate for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven? To devote themselves to lives of prayer and service to others?

I disagree with your interpretation. The only reason to mention eunuchs is to speak to those that aren’t cut out for marriage. I don’t think he’s lauding eunuchs.

People Same Sex Attraction are called to celibacy for the Kingdom. Their attraction is sinful so they are called not to act on it so that they may avoid sin. It’s not easy to accept as we see today but there are those that do it. Some are clergy. Some are not.

 

[Cathoholic]

Roscoe.

I’m curious.

You said:

Paul seemed to think that the second coming was immanent and there was no time to get married. He was wrong but well intentioned.

If a high level of Sacred Scripture’s inspiration is helpful for you to understand Mary’s Perpetual Virginity, then please expound on this here as I have never seen this in St. Paul’s writings.

If it isn’t connected with your apparent rejection of the Perpetual Virginity of Mary doctrine, please consider starting a new thread on it as I’d be quite interested in how you came to this conclusion. My Evangelical Protestant friends would also take to task this idea (not just Catholics) of St. Paul being “wrong”.

Incidentally, Protestants (usually but not exclusively) often refer to St. Paul as “Paul” whereas Catholics often (again not exclusively) refer to him as St. Paul. I am just wondering, and don’t feel compelled to answer if you think it is too personal, but where are you getting your theology from?

It really sounds like you’ve imbibed a lot of the new-fangled traditions invented by our Protestant friends’ forerunners.

Most of the Evangelicals and Fundamentalists I know really hold a very high view of the inspiration of Scripture and would not openly say that “Paul” or anyone else authoring Sacred Scripture is “wrong” on anything (which I agree with). But I know there is a subgroup of Protestants (and “cafeteria Catholics” which are really Protestants in a sense too) who do not affirm the inspiration of Scripture and I wondered if perhaps you’ve been quite influenced by them.

If you do begin a new thread on this please PM me with the link or title or both so I can follow it.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I disagree with your interpretation. The only reason to mention eunuchs is to speak to those that aren’t cut out for marriage. I don’t think he’s lauding eunuchs.

People Same Sex Attraction are called to celibacy for the Kingdom. Their attraction is sinful so they are called not to act on it so that they may avoid sin. It’s not easy to accept as we see today but there are those that do it. Some are clergy. Some are not.

Is it okay, Roscoe, if some choose to remain celibate for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven? To devote themselves to lives of prayer and service to others?

 

[Randy_Carson]

If a high level of Sacred Scripture’s inspiration is helpful for you to understand Mary’s Perpetual Virginity, then please expound on this here as I have never seen this in St. Paul’s writings.

1 Corinthians 7:29
What I mean, brothers and sisters, is that the time is short. From now on those who have wives should live as if they do not;

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Is it okay, Roscoe, if some choose to remain celibate for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven? To devote themselves to lives of prayer and service to others?

I answered in what you quoted. It’s required by some.

Here’s Paul on virgins

1 Cor 7:25

Now in regard to virgins, I have no commandment from the Lord,* but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy.

 

[Randy_Carson]

I answered in what you quoted. It’s required by some.

I read what you wrote, and I’m asking again.

In response to Jesus’ words, is it okay if some choose to remain celibate for the sake of the Kingdom of Heaven?

Is it desirable to devote themselves to lives of prayer and service to others?

Is it praiseworthy that someone would pour out their life for Christ like expensive perfume?

 

[frjohnmorris]

The perpetual virginity of the Theotokos (Birthgiver of God) and ever virgin Mary is an ancient Christian belief that was universal until the birth of Protestantism. The relevant Biblical text is Ezekiel 44:2 "and he said to me, “This gate shall remain shut; it shall not be opened, and no one shall enter by it; for the LORD, the God of Israel, has entered by it; therefore it shall remain shut.” Because the womb of Our Lady was made sacred by carrying God in the flesh, no human could have dwelt in it. Her womb was like the Holy of Holies in the Temple where only God dwelt. The Holy Fathers tell us that the Temple was a type or prophecy of the Virgin Mary whose body became the Temple of the living God.
The Greek words translated brothers and sisters that Protestants use to challenge the doctrine of the perpetual virginity of Our Lady, can also mean cousins or close relatives. For example, the Church calls St. James the Brother of the Lord, but does not mean that he was His actual brother, but a cousin or close relative.
Significantly both Luther and Calvin believed in the perpetual virginity of Our Lady.

Archpriest John W. Morris

 

[Randy_Carson]

Here’s Paul on virgins

1 Cor 7:25
Now in regard to virgins, I have no commandment from the Lord,* but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy.

So, you are saying that Paul’s instructions regarding virgins that follow this verse from the Word of God were NOT inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Everything else in the Bible is infallible, but this is not?

 

[frjohnmorris]

What has your quote from St. Paul have to do with Our Lady?
The Bible is infallible, but like the Catholics, Orthodox interpret the Bible within the context of the rest of Holy Tradition. The Holy Tradition of the Church is that Mary was ever virgin. The 5th Ecumenical Council, the 2nd Council of Constantinople in 553 referred to Mary as ever virgin in it official acts. That makes it official dogma of both the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches because we both recognize the 5th Ecumenical Council as an infallible expression of the teachings of the Church.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

So, you are saying that Paul’s instructions regarding virgins that follow this verse from the Word of God were NOT inspired by the Holy Spirit?

Everything else in the Bible is infallible, but this is not?

CCC

108 Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.” Christianity is the religion of the “Word” of God, a word which is “not a written and mute word, but the Word is incarnate and living”.73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."74

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

What has your quote from St. Paul have to do with Our Lady?
The Bible is infallible, but like the Catholics, Orthodox interpret the Bible within the context of the rest of Holy Tradition. The Holy Tradition of the Church is that Mary was ever virgin. The 5th Ecumenical Council, the 2nd Council of Constantinople in 553 referred to Mary as ever virgin in it official acts. That makes it official dogma of both the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches because we both recognize the 5th Ecumenical Council as an infallible expression of the teachings of the Church.

Some have been saying that viriginity is inharently better than marriage and by extension sex within marriage. They are using 1 Cor as a source to back this up. I find their reasoning lacking. I offered that quote to point out that St. Paul acknowledges that Jesus didn’t speak to virgins.

 

[frjohnmorris]

Of course St.Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit, but I still do not see how the verse that you quoted applies to Our Lady. Our Orthodox liturgical texts constantly refer to Our Lady as "Our Lady, the Theotokos, Immaculate and ever virgin Mary. There are Orthodox hymns that state that Our Lady was Virgin before during and after the birth of Christ. If you look at any traditional icon of Our Lady, you will see three stars that symbolize this teaching of the Church.

 

[Randy_Carson]

CCC

108 Still, the Christian faith is not a “religion of the book.” Christianity is the religion of the “Word” of God, a word which is “not a written and mute word, but the Word is incarnate and living”.73 If the Scriptures are not to remain a dead letter, Christ, the eternal Word of the living God, must, through the Holy Spirit, "open [our] minds to understand the Scriptures."74

I’m glad you have access to the Catechism, but I do not see the relevance of this passage to our discussion.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Of course St.Paul was inspired by the Holy Spirit, but I still do not see how the verse that you quoted applies to Our Lady. Our Orthodox liturgical texts constantly refer to Our Lady as "Our Lady, the Theotokos, Immaculate and ever virgin Mary. There are Orthodox hymns that state that Our Lady was Virgin before during and after the birth of Christ. If you look at any traditional icon of Our Lady, you will see three stars that symbolize this teaching of the Church.

It has to do with the inharent value of virginity. It doesn’t speak to Mary directly.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

I’m glad you have access to the Catechism, but I do not see the relevance of this passage to our discussion.

The bible shows us the truth but it not at the surface.