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EphelDuath
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So now you understand exactly why Catholics have such a profound reverence for the MOTHER OF GOD.
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zz912
Guest
The Old Covenant is the foreshadow to the New. The New Covenant is different, but God gave us the Old so that we could properly understand the New. The Ark of the Old Covenant was given so that we could properly understand the Ark of the New Covenant, and understand properly the holiness that is found inside.
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Della
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Not so. If that were true, God would not have prohibited anyone except the priests touching it. There is a great danger in âspiritualizingâ away the connection between soul and body. We are not just souls, but bodies, bodies that will be resurrected, bodies that, in the persons of Jesus and Mary, have been taken into heaven, glorified for all eternity, as ours will be. Maryâs person was inviolate to all men. She did not and could not, without breaking her vow to God, have had sexual relations with a man. That is what it means.
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zz912
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*Hebrews 9:1 Now [even] the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly sanctuary. 2 For a tabernacle was constructed, the outer one, in which were the lampstand, the table, and the bread of offering; this is called the Holy Place. 3 Behind the second veil was the tabernacle called the Holy of Holies, 4 in which were the gold altar of incense and the ark of the covenant entirely covered with gold. In it were the gold jar containing the manna, the staff of Aaron that had sprouted, and the tablets of the covenant. 5 Above it were the cherubim of glory overshadowing the place of expiation. Now is not the time to speak of these in detail. 6 With these arrangements for worship, the priests, in performing their service, go into the outer tabernacle repeatedly, 7 but the high priest alone goes into the inner one once a year, not without blood that he offers for himself and for the sins of the people. 8 In this way the holy Spirit shows that the way into the sanctuary had not yet been revealed while the outer tabernacle still had its place. 9 This is a symbol of the present time, in which gifts and sacrifices are offered that cannot perfect the worshiper in conscience 10 but only in matters of food and drink and various ritual washings: regulations concerning the flesh, imposed until the time of the new order.
11 But **when Christ came as high priest *of the good things that have come to be, passing through the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made by hands, that is, not belonging to this creation, 12 he entered once for all into the sanctuary, not with the blood of goats and calves but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the sprinkling of a heiferâs ashes can sanctify those who are defiled so that their flesh is cleansed, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to worship the living God.
Look closely. Jesus, the High Priest, passes through the greater and more perfect tabernacle. Look also at what the Ark contained: 1-manna, 2-Aaronâs priestly staff, 3-tablets of the 10 commandments. Look to Christ, who is the 1-Heavenly Manna, 2-High Priest, 3-Word of God. He is the perfect fulfillment of the shadows of these items. And they were contained in the Ark, just as Jesus was contained in the womb of Mary, passing through the greater and more perfect tabernacle.
11 But **when Christ came as high priest *of the good things that have come to be, passing through the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made by hands, that is, not belonging to this creation, 12 he entered once for all into the sanctuary, not with the blood of goats and calves but with his own blood, thus obtaining eternal redemption. 13 For if the blood of goats and bulls and the sprinkling of a heiferâs ashes can sanctify those who are defiled so that their flesh is cleansed, 14 how much more will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works to worship the living God.
Look closely. Jesus, the High Priest, passes through the greater and more perfect tabernacle. Look also at what the Ark contained: 1-manna, 2-Aaronâs priestly staff, 3-tablets of the 10 commandments. Look to Christ, who is the 1-Heavenly Manna, 2-High Priest, 3-Word of God. He is the perfect fulfillment of the shadows of these items. And they were contained in the Ark, just as Jesus was contained in the womb of Mary, passing through the greater and more perfect tabernacle.
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zz912
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We donât claim that Mary has power of her own. She is special for one reason (among many) because she held GOD HIMSELF inside her. REALLY think this over a few times. She held GOD HIMSELF in her womb. God took her nature to become man. Really think this over some.
Think of the times where people came close to the presence of God, and what happened to them. Here are a few:
- Moses had to be shielded from the full presence of God, and his face shone when he spent time with God. It shone so much that it scared the people, so he had to wear a veil.
- Uzzah was killed for touching the Ark.
- The High Priest had to go through VERY specific rituals and cleansing so that he could enter once a year to the Holy of Holies.
- The woman who bled for 12 years touched Jesusâ GARMENT and was healed.
- Jesus healed many just by touching them
- Jesus healed a blind man with His spit and some mud.
- John the Baptist leaped for joy (just like David before the Ark) in Elizabethâs womb at the voice of Mary and the presence of Jesus.
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JoeT777
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I wholeheartedly agree with your conclusion . However, Mary wasnât just âbodyâ, just as Christ isnât âjust bodyâ. She is a person, a rational being comprised of body and soul who gave birth to the Second Person of the Trinity. The soul animates the body through the intellect. A âhuman personâ is a being with a human nature and other individuating human traits. In Maryâs case a very distinct being, the spouse of God.
Violating the person of Mary would violate Godâs spouse, and mother.
JoeT
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Della
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Not to be pedantic, but I didnât state that Mary is just âbodyâ. I was emphasizing the fact that we are not just souls and not just bodies, but souls and bodiesâthat both are equally important, as demonstrated by the fact that both Jesus and Maryâs bodies were taken to heaven. Naturally, their souls are a part of their bodies.
Too many people have the heretical idea that our bodies donât matterâthat they are simply vessels for the soulâan idea that came about during the reformation and has poisoned portions of Christianity ever since. The poster denied that the Ark itself was a holy object, but only its contents. This is patently not true, just as it would not be true to say that only Mary or Jesusâ souls were holy and not the whole of their persons, bodies and souls. Does that make sense?
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TimothyH
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Under Jewish law, nobody was allowed to touch a woman other than his wife. Touching a woman other than one you were legally allowed to be intimate with was forbidden. Even today, observant Orthodox Jews avoid all contact with women other than their wife. They will not shake hands, will not make casual contact when paying for something at the store, etc.
Addressing your question of contact with a woman, the Torah in its Written Law writes (Leviticus 18:6) âNo person shall approach a prohibited woman and act immodestlyâ. Our Oral Tradition explains this prohibition as a unique Torah law that draws a line, not at the act of intimate relations itself, but also at the engaging in any form of intimate contact with a woman one is not permitted to have relations with.
Read MoreâŚ.
Certainly, the Ark of the Covenant teaches us that anyone that tried to touch Mary sexually would have not only violated the Jewish law about touching a woman but would have been killed by God instantly for touching the woman he created and reserved exclusively for himself.
God did create Mary and reserved her exclusively for himself. Like Mary, the Ark was not to be touched by anyone. The Ark rested in the Holy of Holies where Godâs Spirit dwelt in the glory cloud.
The Third Person of the Trinity was to be the only person to conceive a child with Mary and the Second Person of the Trinity was the only person to be born of Mary. If anyone had attempted to touch Mary sexually they would have instantly died. Even apart from that, no man would have had casual contact with any woman not in his immediate family. It was not something that was done.
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JoeT777
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Youâll need to explain a bit more, I donât want to assume what is intended. How have made contortions with regard to marriage? We know that marriage is a âman leaving father and mother, and becomes faithful to his wife: and the two will live in one spiritâ. (Genesis 2:24; Matthew 19:5). That is a man and woman unite themselves becoming like the essence of one person. Mary and Joseph together are as one person in this unity they both are joined to as one flesh with God ~ which, by the way, is the view of a Catholic marriage. Furthermore, these two united together in one spirit with God are âChurchâ. So, as I see it Mary, receiving Godâs progeny becomes âChurchâ
It seems Joseph had a great deal of apprehension. It took a special messenger to get him to take Mary. Also, it was customary among ascetics to marry for the needs of a household.
I didnât say Joseph and Mary werenât really husband and wife - youâve assumed it. Marriage isnât predicated on the physical, rather it is predicated on the union. It is your mind that reaches for the lowest denominator to judge what is âreal marriageâ and what isnât. The Protestant does âbesmirchâ Christâs Person and Mary as His mother. What makes one âsecond-raterâ is to fail a clear vision of Christ through the lens of Mary. As Iâve said it divides Christ into human or God, but never Theandros.
JoeT
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Roscoe_Turner
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The arc was just a box. It did nothing until the tablets were placed inside. Bezalel and Oholiab created it per Mosesâ instructions. Nothing happened to them.
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Della
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It was especially constructed for only one purposeâto contain the Law, thus making it holy. Mary was preserved free of original sin and filled with grace from the moment of her conception, so when was she holy enough according to you? God created her for only one purposeâto be the Mother of God Incarnate. Try again.
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Roscoe_Turner
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If you took the tablets out of the box. The box was inert. If you are making the comparison literal wouldnât the birth of Christ make Mary âinertâ as well? In other words while she carried the Christ in her womb, she was the arc. When He was born she no longer was.
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Della
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No. Once the Ark had been constructed it was set aside for only one purpose, no matter if it still contained the tablets of the Law or not. It was the same for all the things made for the worship of God from the candlesticks to the Tabernacle itself. Maryâs whole life was vowed to God, not just her womb.
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zz912
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You simply have no idea what you are talking about. The men selected were the ones who could craft it. Once it was crafted, and consecrated, it could never be touched again. And just as the serving instruments and other items in the tabernacle that are mentioned in my prior posts were consecrated, they could not be touched either. NONE of the items reserved to God could be touched unless EXPLICITLY given permission from God to do so. So NO, the Ark was NOT just a box. That is an insult to God who declared that the Ark was holy and reserved for Him.
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zz912
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*Revelation 11:19 Then Godâs temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm. 12:1 A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. 2 She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth. 3 Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems. 4 Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth. 5 **She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne. *6 The woman herself fled into the desert where she had a place prepared by God, that there she might be taken care of for twelve hundred and sixty days.
In Johnâs vision, the Ark is seen, but suddenly, it changes to a woman who is pregnant with the ruler who will rule all nations. Hmmmmm.
In Johnâs vision, the Ark is seen, but suddenly, it changes to a woman who is pregnant with the ruler who will rule all nations. Hmmmmm.
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JoeT777
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I understood, I was simply restating your comment for my own purposes - it helps me focus on a particular subject. Iâm sorry if I lead you to believe anything else.Not to be pedantic, but I didnât state that Mary is just âbodyâ. I was emphasizing the fact that we are not just souls and not just bodies, but souls and bodiesâthat both are equally important, as demonstrated by the fact that both Jesus and Maryâs bodies were taken to heaven. Naturally, their souls are a part of their bodies.
Your comments made absolute sense in both posts.
JoeT
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Roscoe_Turner
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The arc was taken/lost/destroyed in the Babylonian conquest. People moved it.
Alters and Churches are desanctified. Itâs not an all or nothing thing.
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TimothyH
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This is true. The Ark was holy even when it was empty.
Jews believed that the Ark was intrinsically holy, not just because of what it held but because it was a physical manifestationof God on earth. It was the only such physical object of its kind on earth.
The Midrash and the Talmud are valuable insights into what the Jews believed about the Ark. There is an easy to read article at jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/Judaism/ark.html.
-Tim-
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Evan
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Mary is holy because she is the mother of God. Motherhood does not end at birth, but enters a new phase. It also does not end with the death of a Child. So she continues to be the mother of Jesus and of the Church.
Of course, she is also the wife of Joseph, her spouse who had every right in the eyes of God to consummate the marriage. They chose not to, not because of a death threat held over the head of Joseph, but out of a desire to love God and image the trinity through their spiritual marriage.
Of course, she is also the wife of Joseph, her spouse who had every right in the eyes of God to consummate the marriage. They chose not to, not because of a death threat held over the head of Joseph, but out of a desire to love God and image the trinity through their spiritual marriage.
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Roscoe_Turner
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When was it empty? Before it was filled? It wasnât striking people dead then.
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