Mary's Perpetual Virginity, What's the Big Deal?

[Cathoholic]

**Why is Mary’s Perpetual Virginity doctrine important? **

If you can see the intrinsic value of virginity Roscoe, than Mary’s Perpetual Virginity and its importance will be a snap (easy to see). If you cannot see the innate value of virginity, you may have a tougher time seeing it.

Why is this doctrine important? As Tim Staples has said: “All Marian doctrines have Christologic implications.” There are other reasons too (but I won’t get into them here—others have: “because it is true”).

This doctrine affects the way you see not just Mary, but Jesus too. For example: Imagine trying to tell the world that . . . . . Jesus is God who took upon Himself the flesh of the Virgin Mary and was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit . . . . if there were all sorts of siblings running around the yard? There were no siblings but if there were, it would serve as scandal for those who might not have as strong a faith as you Roscoe (yes there were “brothers” and “sisters” in a Semitic sense or extended relatives, but there are good reasons in Scripture to see these were not “uterine siblings” of Jesus).

Mary was totally devoted to God. The Ark of the Covenant was in a sense a “type” or prefigurement of Mary. If the mere Ark was so carefully dedicated (or “consecrated”), how much more the Blessed Virgin Mary who carries not merely manna from Heaven, Aaron’s staff, and the words of the Commandments in stone, but Mary carries the TRUE Manna from Heaven, the TRUE High Priest, the TRUE “Word made flesh” (when I say “TRUE” I mean it in the sense of “fulfilled”). It would also be worth going back re-reading what FathersKnowBest wrote (keeping in mind he wrote that rhetorically–post number 17 if it is not moved).

Virginity is more “Heavenly oriented” than non-virginity in the context of marriage. They are both GOOD, but virginity is better.

This is WHY some people “follow the lamb wherever he goes” concerning virginity (Revelation 14:4-5), because their love for Jesus is so great they want to emulate Jesus in all spheres of life—even in their foregoing this aspect of their sexuality.

If this is true for some of the saints in book of Revelation, how much MORE true would that be for the Blessed Virgin Mary who is “the handmaiden of the Lord”?

Some people voluntarily forego this aspect of their sexuality “for the sake of the kingdom” or as Jesus said, “made themselves eunuchs for the sake of the kingdom” (Matthew 19:12).

In Heaven we won’t be “married and given in marriage”. Consecrated virgins begin this aspect of their Heavenly existence RIGHT NOW in this respect—but not all are called to this life of virginity on earth (it takes proper discernment and a voluntary rendering to this after you discern it). They will be rewarded for it in the next life greatly. We should be cautious not to have envy for these heroes but to celebrate their holy virginity (not to imply that anyone here would be envious of others holy virginity).

There is evidence that ancient Israelites practiced virginity with vows for higher purposes as well. There is Scriptural evidence that the Blessed Virgin Mary had taken such a vow.

This doctrine also partially fulfills a prophetic oracle of God. “Behold a virgin (almah) will conceive and bear a son”. This is a great sign for the world. This is why this verse in Isaiah 7, is so often attacked by the secular minded world.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

**Why is Mary’s Perpetual Virginity doctrine important? **

If you can see the intrinsic value of virginity Roscoe, than Mary’s Perpetual Virginity and its importance will be a snap (easy to see). If you cannot see the innate value of virginity, you may have a tougher time seeing it.

This may be what I’m struggling with. I see that a virgin having a child is a unique event and shows the uniqueness of the child but virginity in it’s self as a better state of being misses me entirely. Its the way we are made, as sexual beings. I see nothing shameful or debasing about it.

Mark 10

6 But from the beginning of creation, ‘God made them male and female.
7 For this reason a man shall leave his father and mother [and be joined to his wife,
8 and the two shall become one flesh.’ So they are no longer two but one flesh.
9 Therefore what God has joined together, no human being must separate.”

[/quote]

 

[AmbroseSJ]

This may be what I’m struggling with. I see that a virgin having a child is a unique event and shows the uniqueness of the child but virginity in it’s self as a better state of being misses me entirely. Its the way we are made, as sexual beings. I see nothing shameful or debasing about it.

You are reaching a false conclusion. Virginity is NOT about denigrating normal marital relations, or making them shameful or debasing them. Normal sexual relations are actually sacred renewals of the marriage covenant.

However, as St. Paul informs us, virginity is a preferred state in that one can devote one’s entire being to God. This is what makes virginity a preferred state in God’s eyes. It is also not for everyone obviously. But for those who are called to virginity, it is a preferred state. Just like being a CEO of a large corporation is a preferred state monetarily speaking, compared to being the janitor. However we can’t live without janitors or CEOs. One does not denigrate the other (at least not intrinsically) People’s prejudice are another matter though.

 

[zz912]

The arc was taken/lost/destroyed in the Babylonian conquest. People moved it.

Alters and Churches are desanctified. It’s not an all or nothing thing.

Moved it by using the poles. They didn’t touch it. And God permitted it as punishment to the Israelites for their infidelity to the Old Covenant. Not as a blessing to the Babylonians.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

You are reaching a false conclusion. Virginity is NOT about denigrating normal marital relations, or making them shameful or debasing them. Normal sexual relations are actually sacred renewals of the marriage covenant.

However, as St. Paul informs us, virginity is a preferred state in that one can devote one’s entire being to God. This is what makes virginity a preferred state in God’s eyes. It is also not for everyone obviously. But for those who are called to virginity, it is a preferred state. Just like being a CEO of a large corporation is a preferred state monetarily speaking, compared to being the janitor. However we can’t live without janitors or CEOs. One does not denigrate the other (at least not intrinsically) People’s prejudice are another matter though.

I think St. Paul was misguided. He thought the second coming was imminent.

1 CORINTHIANS Chapter 7

28 If you marry, however, you do not sin, nor does an unmarried woman sin if she marries; but such people will experience affliction in their earthly life, and I would like to spare you that.
29 I tell you, brothers, the time is running out. From now on, let those having wives act as not having them,
30 those weeping as not weeping, those rejoicing as not rejoicing, those buying as not owning,
31 those using the world as not using it fully. For the world in its present form is passing away.

If natural law points us to marriage and sex, it seems strange to think it would displease the Lord to act as we were designed.

 

[AmbroseSJ]

If natural law points us to marriage and sex, it seems strange to think it would displease the Lord to act as we were designed.

We are also designed to eat, but fasting is pleasing to God.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

We are also designed to eat, but fasting is pleasing to God.

We don’t fast our whole lives

 

[YADA]

…But in a marriage, if you pledge to not have relations, that pledge is always subserviant to the marriage vow. In other words, both people in the marriage must agree, and that agreement can be withdrawn at any time…

Hi Evan …Our Holy Scriptures tell us that Vows made to the Lord God are different … One does not make a promise to God lightly

And they also inform us that a young woman could make those vows while still in her Father’s home … Vows made were serious - to failure to keep them serious … And unless a father or husband immediately disputed a vow made by daughter or wife - they were binding on both perpetually … If a husband or father later caused the wife or daughter to violate the vow - they became the one guilty of violating the oath

You may want to read Number Chapter 30 for the passages that refer to Vows, their Validity and Annulment of those vows …

1 So Moses instructed the Israelites exactly as the LORD had commanded him.
2 Moses said to the heads of the Israelite tribes, “This is what the LORD has commanded:
3 When a man makes a vow to the LORD or binds himself under oath to a pledge,* he shall not violate his word, but must fulfill exactly the promise he has uttered.a
4 “When a woman makes a vow to the LORD, or binds herself to a pledge, while still in her father’s house in her youth, 5 and her father learns of her vow or the pledge to which she bound herself and says nothing to her about it, then any vow or any pledge to which she bound herself remains valid. 6 But if on the day he learns of it her father opposes her, then any vow or any pledge to which she bound herself becomes invalid; and the LORD will release her from it, since her father opposed her. 7 “If she marries while under a vow or under a rash pledge to which she bound herself, 8 and her husband learns of it, yet says nothing to her on the day he learns it, then the vows or the pledges to which she bound herself remain valid. 9 But if on the day her husband learns of it he opposes her, he thereby annuls the vow she had made or the rash pledge to which she had bound herself, and the LORD will release her from it. 10 (The vow of a widow or of a divorced woman, however, any pledge to which such a woman binds herself, is valid.) 11 “If it is in her husband’s house* that she makes a vow or binds herself under oath to a pledge, 12 and her husband learns of it yet says nothing to her to oppose her, then all her vows remain valid or any pledge to which she has bound herself. 13 But if on the day he learns of them her husband annuls them, then whatever she has expressly promised in her vows or in her pledge becomes invalid; since her husband has annulled them, the LORD will release her from them. 14 “Any vow or any pledge that she makes under oath to humble herself, her husband may either confirm or annul. 15 But if her husband, day after day, says nothing at all to her, he thereby confirms all her vows or all the pledges incumbent upon her; he has confirmed them, because on the day he learned of them he said nothing to her. 16 If**, however, he annuls them* some time after he first learned of them, he will be responsible for her guilt**.” 17 These are the statutes which the LORD commanded Moses concerning a husband and his wife, as well as a father and his daughter while she is still in her youth in her father’s house.

 

[YADA]

Mary is holy because she is the mother of God. Motherhood does not end at birth, but enters a new phase. It also does not end with the death of a Child. So she continues to be the mother of Jesus and of the Church.

Of course, she is also the wife of Joseph, her spouse who had every right in the eyes of God to consummate the marriage. They chose not to, not because of a death threat held over the head of Joseph, but out of a desire to love God and image the trinity through their spiritual marriage.

No - they made a Vow to bind themselves to the Lord … a promise to God … Joseph had no rights to consummate the marriage once Mary’s vow was made unless he had immediately denounced it upon first learning of it - read and study the Book of Numbers - Chapter 30

 

[Della]

I think St. Paul was misguided. He thought the second coming was imminent.

St. Paul was never misguided about anything to do with faith and morals. The last days began with the Annunciation. He had no idea how long until Christ would return, just as we do not. We are always to be ready, that’s the point of his words–so it’s best to consider serving God before all else.

If natural law points us to marriage and sex, it seems strange to think it would displease the Lord to act as we were designed.

Of course, but not everyone is called to marriage. Most people are, naturally, but for those who aren’t it is a vocation–one in which they can serve God without the worries of married people. Both Jesus and St. Paul talked about this.

If God calls us to celibacy and complete chastity, then he gives us that gift–then it is not a deprivation, but a joy. I lived as a single woman for 35 years before I married, and I thought I might never marry, but I trusted in God through that time knowing that if I was to remain unmarried, then God would let me know that was the way I was to serve him. I considered becoming a religious but it wasn’t the vocation God had in mind for me. If it had been, I’d have been perfectly happy to serve as God wanted. I’m perfectly happy as a wife now. Virginity is a gift and so is the married state. Both are gifts God gives us according to his plans for us.

 

[YADA]

I think St. Paul was misguided. He thought the second coming was imminent.

1 CORINTHIANS Chapter 7

If natural law points us to marriage and sex, it seems strange to think it would displease the Lord to act as we were designed.

St. Paul was misguided.

Imagine that … St Paul - misguided and then allowed to record that mis-information in the Holy Scriptures - to mis-guide generations of Christians yet unborn :

Somehow - I just don’t think so

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

Conceiving the Christ as a virgin I can see as important. Born without original sin and not knowing man she was a pure vessel to be the mother of Jesus. I’m not questioning the teaching but I don’t understand why is the perpetual virginity of Mary necessary or important? There isn’t anything inherently sinful or unclean about husband and wife having relations. I don’t see it as diminishing her in anyway. It’s what men and women were made by God to do.

Men and women were created to have a progeny; however, the mistake is thinking there is only one way to do this. Every priest can tell you that they had sacrificed the beautiful sacrament of marriage and the marriage act which begets children in the flesh, for another fatherhood which allows them to have children in the Spirit. If someone asked me why I would want to be a priest, one of the reasons I would say is because I want a HUGE family; one that is too big for any woman to physically bare. I believe this is why Mary didn’t have any more children in the flesh, because she knew she would be the spiritual mother of us all.

 

[AndrewW94]

Roscoe,
You’re setting up a straw man argument and knocking it down.

What Catholoholic actually said was this:

Virginity is more “Heavenly oriented” than non-virginity in the context of marriage. They are both GOOD, but virginity is better.

what you seem to have heard was this:

Intimate acts in marriage are shameful or debasing.

Or again:

Virginity is NOT about denigrating normal marital relations, or making them shameful or debasing them. Normal sexual relations are actually sacred renewals of the marriage covenant.

However, as St. Paul informs us, virginity is a preferred state in that one can devote one’s entire being to God. This is what makes virginity a preferred state in God’s eyes. It is also not for everyone obviously. But for those who are called to virginity, it is a preferred state.

where you seem to have read:

Natural law points us to marriage and sex, but it would displease the Lord to act as we were designed.

The lives chosen by Our Lord and by Our Blessed Mother have a lot to teach us. If nothing else, you should be able to see that virginity must have value because Jesus and Mary thought it did.

 

[Randy_Carson]

This may be what I’m struggling with. I see that a virgin having a child is a unique event and shows the uniqueness of the child but virginity in it’s self as a better state of being misses me entirely. Its the way we are made, as sexual beings. I see nothing shameful or debasing about it.

Mark 10

Both Jesus and Paul praised the celibate life.

Matthew 19:11-12
11Jesus replied, “Not everyone can accept this word, but only those to whom it has been given. 12For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven.** The one who can accept this should accept it.”**

Jesus offers the celibate life as a gift and tells us that “The one who can accept this should accept it.”

1 Corinthians 7:1
1Now for the matters you wrote about: It is good for a man not to marry.

1 Corinthians 7:7
7I wish that all men were as I am. But each man has his own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

Paul reveals his own celibacy and offers an earnest wish that more people would follow his example.

 

[TimothyH]

It pleased God the Father that Jesus himself should remain celibate.

Celibacy was common among faithful Jews at the time of Jesus. Tradition teaches that the Apostle John was celibate.

Anyone who is called to celibacy will tell you that it is a gift from God.

An excellent book is When God Asks for an Undivided Heart

bks2.books.google.com/books?id=TiK1IQAACAAJ&printsec=frontcover&img=1&zoom=1&imgtk=AFLRE70-Xh82j-sHpnHzm_qPV7HJGqtB1mV3WWDXO9bmc637aSjFSpWUVa-_vJjz281FJyahhh9eBkZma75rN7ymadxD5k81Q8Ff_jVHyhbri3fW4Remxw3j3hR0YnD-r9rQqOQ3F_hi

-Tim-

 

[po18guy]

Conceiving the Christ as a virgin I can see as important. Born without original sin and not knowing man she was a pure vessel to be the mother of Jesus. I’m not questioning the teaching but I don’t understand why is the perpetual virginity of Mary necessary or important? There isn’t anything inherently sinful or unclean about husband and wife having relations. I don’t see it as diminishing her in anyway. It’s what men and women were made by God to do.

Your answer is in the bible. Mary vowed before Gabriel to be the “bond slave” of the Lord. That Lord was her own Son.

Q. How many masters may a slave serve?

A. One.

Q. How many children did Gabriel tell Mary that she would have?

A. One, a Son.

Q. Name the “other children” of Mary as listed in the bible.

A. Can’t.

Where were those “other children” at the finding of Jesus in the Temple? At Jesus’ baptism? At the wedding feast at Cana? At the crucifixion? Which of those “other children” did Jesus give Mary to before dying. Apparently, those “other children” of Mary were such horrible sinners that they are not even mentioned in scripture. They were totally dissed. What a bunch of deadbeats they must have been!

So, Jesus had ‘brothers and sisters’. Do you know what that meant in Aramaic?

Immediate and extended family, neighbors and those from the same district. Abraham called Lot his 'brother", yet the bible reveals that they were uncle and nephew. Is the bible wrong? Or, is there really no word for cousin in Aramaic?

You missed sometihng: Mary’s perpetual virginity is not exclusively Catholic belief.

The Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox have also believed in Mary’s perpetual virginity since day 1.

And Martin Luther.

And the Anglican Church

Can we get over the modern obsession with sex now?

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

St. Paul was never misguided about anything to do with faith and morals.

Do you think he is correct with this assertion?

1 Corinthians 14:33-35

34 women should keep silent in the churches, for they are not allowed to speak, but should be subordinate, as even the law says.
35 But if they want to learn anything, they should ask their husbands at home. For it is improper for a woman to speak in the church.

He was human. All humans are fallible.

Here I think he hits the mark

1 If I speak in human and angelic tongues but do not have love, I am a resounding gong or a clashing cymbal.
2 And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.
3 If I give away everything I own, and if I hand my body over so that I may boast but do not have love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient, love is kind. It is not jealous, [love] is not pompous, it is not inflated,d
5 it is not rude, it does not seek its own interests, it is not quick-tempered, it does not brood over injury,
6 it does not rejoice over wrongdoing but rejoices with the truth.
7 It bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things.
8 Love never fails. If there are prophecies, they will be brought to nothing; if tongues, they will cease; if knowledge, it will be brought to nothing.
9 For we know partially and we prophesy partially,
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away.
11 When I was a child, I used to talk as a child, think as a child, reason as a child; when I became a man, I put aside childish things.
12 At present we see indistinctly, as in a mirror, but then face to face. At present I know partially; then I shall know fully, as I am fully known.
13 So faith, hope, love remain, these three;h but the greatest of these is love.

 

[Roscoe_Turner]

Celibacy was common among faithful Jews at the time of Jesus.

What’s your source for this?

The Essenes seem to be the only ones that took it up.

myjewishlearning.com/life/Sex_and_Sexuality/Jewish_Approaches/Celibacy.shtml

 

[Randy_Carson]

Do you think he is correct with this assertion?

1 Corinthians 14:33-35

Only men may be ordained as priests or deacons, and only ordained men are permitted to teach during the homily or “sermon” portion of our church services.

So, yeah, Paul was on the mark.

 

[Randy_Carson]

The Bereans and the Virgin Mary

When Paul preached the gospel to the Bereans, scripture records that “the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true” (Acts 17:11). It can be argued that the Bereans did not practice sola scriptura as did the Thessalonians who actually rejected the gospel, but for the purposes of this discussion, the point will be conceded.

The Bereans searched the scriptures, but they would have searched forever without finding the name of Jesus of Nazareth connected in any way with the messiah whose advent was foretold in the Old Testament prophecies. In order to help the Bereans understand his gospel message, Paul referenced and interpreted the Old Testament passages which supported his teaching and made the necessary connection between the prophecies and the actual events in the life, death and resurrection of Jesus. Paul’s authoritative interpretation of the scriptures was required in order for the Bereans to correctly understand that Jesus was the messiah foretold in the Old Testament.

In light of this, is it really so different when the Catholic Church authoritatively teaches that Mary was conceived without sin, perpetually virgin, assumed bodily into heaven or that she is the Queen of Heaven? Like the Bereans, we can search in vain for explicit references to these things, and yet the Church, by virtue of its Apostolic Authority, has infallibly defined these doctrines by interpreting scripture.

It is the authoritative Apostolic interpretation of the Catholic Church which helps us to see the truths in scripture that we, like the Bereans, may not find if left to our own devices.