Mary's Perpetual Virginity

[Prodigal_Son1]

Jesus had brothers and sisters as stated in Aramaic Matthew 6:3 and Matthew 13:55-56. In the canonical Gospels they name only James is known to history.
As a doctrine of Peretual Virginty of Mary developed, predominantly in the East. Christians began to requard the siblings of Jesus as children of Joseph by an eariler marriage and Jerome went on to argue that the brothers and sisters were cousins.

Now the most matural conclusion from what is written in the NT is that Jesus’ siblings were childrend of Mary and Joseph as accepted by some members of the early Christian church.

According to the Gospel of Mark, Jesus’ mother and brothers wer at first sceptical of his ministry but later became part of the Christian movement.

The NT names James, Joses, Simon and Jude as the Adelphoi of Jesus. Now Delphys is the Greek word for womb which the words Dolpin and Delphi deverive from this meaning.
So Adelphos would literally mean those from the womb in this context.

rev kevin,

You mention Jerome but failed to address those earlier than Jerome. I listed Origen from 248AD. Also prior to Jerome was Hilary of Poitiers, Athanasius and Epiphanius. Don’t you think it’s possible this belief, that Jerome argue in favor of, was passed down through the men of Church?

As you mention the ‘canonical’ Gospels, you realize the canon had not been defined prior to any of these men you or I mentioned above?

The Early Church Fathers believed that Mary remained a virgin her entire life.

Origen

The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the first fruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the first fruit of virginity (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).

Hilary of Poitiers

If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary’s sons and not those taken from Joseph’s former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, “Woman, behold your son,” and to John, “Behold your mother” [John 19:26-27], as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]).

Athanasius

Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that He took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary (Discourses against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).

Epiphanius

We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).

Jerome

But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).

Edited to add:

G80
ἀδελφός
adelphos
ad-el-fos’
From G1 (as a connective particle) and δελφύς delphus (the womb); a brother (literally or figuratively) near or remote (much like [H1]): - brother.

The emphasis above is mine. It seems you overlooked that in your post.

 

[rev_kevin]

Kevin -
Where does it say that Mary (Jesus’ mother) had other children?
NOWHERE does it say this in ALL of Scripture.

You have been shown on this and many other threads that these so-called siblings were not uterine siblings. I know this because I have shown you this proof many times, yet you persist in saying that they were. You are being dishonest here. However, I’m happy to educate you again on this matter:

You are attempting to prove that Mary had other children and list the names given in the Bible. The names of these adelphoi, James, Joseph (Joses), Jude (Judas) are in Matt. 12:46; Matt. 13:55; Mark 3:31–34; Mark 6:3; Luke 8:19–20; John 2:12, 7:3, 5, 10; Acts 1:14; 1 Cor. 9:5.

The “other Mary” at the foot of the cross is described as being the mother of James and Joses and Salome. She is also described as being Mary’s (mother of Jesus) “sister” *(adelphe) *(John 19:25).

James is elsewhere described as the son of Alphaeus(Matt. 10:3), which would mean this other Mary, whoever she was, was the wife of both Clopas and Alphaeus. However, Alphaeus and Clopas are the same person, since the Aramaic name for Alphaeus could be rendered in Greek either as Alphaeus or as Clopas.

What do the Scriptures have to say about the women standing at the cross and their children?
Matt. 27:56** says,* “…among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James and Joseph, and the mother of the sons of Zebedee”***.

Mark 15:40** states, "There were also women looking on from afar, among whom were Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James the younger and of Joses, and Salome**").

Finally,John 19:25 states, "But standing by the cross of Jesus were his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene".

When you compare the different accounts of the crucifixion, they clearly show the mother of James and Joseph to be the wife of Clopas (also called, Alphaeus) – not Mary, the Mother of Jesus. Any attempt to connect these people as uterine brothers of Jesus are squashed by the Bible.

Bottom line, Kevin - there is FAR more Scriptural evidence in *favor *of Mary’s perpetual virginity than not.

I have given you Scripture that says these are Jesus’ brothers. You just don’t want to accept it. Now where does it say in Scripture that Mary stayed a virgin all her life. It don’t.

I have given you what the word Adelphos means but you insist that it could only mean one thing which is not true.

They are common names.

John 19:25, “Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Cel’-o-phas and Mary Magda-lene.” (KJV)
John 19:25 “Standing near the cross were Jesus’ mother and his mothers sister, Mary (the wife of Clopas) and Mary Magdalene.” (Life Application Study Bible)
I have given you 2 translations of John 19:25 and I don’t see no description, but what I do see is that there seems to be a lot of Mary’s so why can’t there be more than one Simon, James, Jose and Jude.

James is also described as the brother of Jesus.

All common names.

Remember Jesus’ brothers did not believe or follow Jesus in his ministry so they would not be mentiones much in the Bible. There are only a few passages that mention Jesus’ brothers and sisters.

 

[rev_kevin]

rev kevin,

You mention Jerome but failed to address those earlier than Jerome. I listed Origen from 248AD. Also prior to Jerome was Hilary of Poitiers, Athanasius and Epiphanius. Don’t you think it’s possible this belief, that Jerome argue in favor of, was passed down through the men of Church?

As you mention the ‘canonical’ Gospels, you realize the canon had not been defined prior to any of these men you or I mentioned above?

The Early Church Fathers believed that Mary remained a virgin her entire life.

Edited to add:

The emphasis above is mine. It seems you overlooked that in your post.

I said that the siblings of Jesus from Mary and Joseph were accepted by some members of the early Christian Church.

Your emphasis above I have said many times in other threads about this. I said it word for word just like you have.

 

[Reuben_J]

James is also described as the brother of Jesus.

Would this James be the one Paul mentioned in Gal 1:19, James, the Lord’s brother?

 

[rev_kevin]

Would this James be the one Paul mentioned in Gal 1:19, James, the Lord’s brother?

No its the James in 1 corinthians 15:7 This James is the brother of Jesus who at first did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. (John 7:5)

Why is James the only one called the Lord’s brother. Wouldn’t they all be known as the Lords brother? Why single just one out and call him the Lord’s brother?

But soon it was time for the Festival of Shelters and Jesus’ brother’s urged him to go to Judea of the celebration. Go where your followers can see your miricals, the scoffed. You can’t become a public figure if you hide like this! If you can do such wonderful things, prove it to the world! For even his brothers didn’t believe in him. John 7:2-5

 

[ConstantineTG]

Because its my view and what I believe.

But rev kevin, if Mary’s virginity or lack of it doesn’t alter your faith, why insist on your viewpoint? Whats the end game of this?

 

[ConstantineTG]

I have given you Scripture that says these are Jesus’ brothers. You just don’t want to accept it. Now where does it say in Scripture that Mary stayed a virgin all her life. It don’t.

They are brothers and sisters of Jesus, but they are not children of Mary.
Again, where in scripture does it say that they are the children of Mary?

 

[rev_kevin]

But rev kevin, if Mary’s virginity or lack of it doesn’t alter your faith, why insist on your viewpoint? Whats the end game of this?

discussion. You have your viewpoint about it and I have mine. You want to get your view accross on what and why you believe it and I am doing the same.

 

[rev_kevin]

rev kevin;7433744:

I have given you Scripture that says these are Jesus’ brothers. You just don’t want to accept it. Now where does it say in Scripture that Mary stayed a virgin all her life. It don’t.

They are brothers and sisters of Jesus, but they are not children of Mary.
Again, where in scripture does it say that they are the children of Mary?

Question not answered.
Are they the children of Joseph from a previous marriage? If so where does Scripture say that?
Where does it say in Scripture that Mary stayed a virgin all her life?
Your not answering the questions.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Question not answered.
Are they the children of Joseph from a previous marriage? If so where does Scripture say that?
Where does it say in Scripture that Mary stayed a virgin all her life?
Your not answering the questions.

I have an extra-biblical source.

Even if you throw out the Protoevangelium from the discussion, what supports your view over mine? Biblically, there is nothing that would support yours or mine. Extra-biblical sources would support mine, but still not your viewpoint.

 

[Reuben_J]

No its the James in 1 corinthians 15:7 This James is the brother of Jesus who at first did not believe that Jesus was the Messiah. (John 7:5)

Why is James the only one called the Lord’s brother. Wouldn’t they all be known as the Lords brother? Why single just one out and call him the Lord’s brother?

But soon it was time for the Festival of Shelters and Jesus’ brother’s urged him to go to Judea of the celebration. Go where your followers can see your miricals, the scoffed. You can’t become a public figure if you hide like this! If you can do such wonderful things, prove it to the world! For even his brothers didn’t believe in him. John 7:2-5

Gal 1
18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas** and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James**, the Lord’s brother****. 20 I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.

1 Cor 15
6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

I am quite confused by your explanation. I just want to know your reason, that’s all.

You said, James which is described as Jesus’ brother was the one in 1Cor 15:7 but not the one in Gal1:19.

For a person who based his argument on the Bible, you have not been convincing, in fact there is nothing to support your contention.

In Gal 1:19, Paul said James, the Lord’s brother. And yet you say this is not James the brother of Jesus.

In 1 Cor 15:7, Paul was only mentioning Jesus appeared to James – he did not say James was Jesus’ brother and yet you said this is the James in John 7:5 where James is not mentioned by name at all.

How do you prove that James was one of the brothers in John 7:5 since his name was not mentioned there nor did Paul categorically stated that the James in 1 Cor 15:7 was Jesus’ brother?

Look like you have to review your reason again, as this one does not make sense, at least to me, as I listen to your clarification.

 

[Radical]

Extra-biblical sources would support mine, but still not your viewpoint.

Have you considered Tertullian…it seems to me that he is a much more respectable source than the Protoevangelium of James. Further the perpetual virginity of Mary has three declared aspects to it: Ante partum, post partum and in partu. How many of the extra-biblical sources that you claim for support of Mary’s PV do not address or expressly refuse to endorse the “in partu” claim?..if they refuse, why would that be (unless it is not an established tradition)? And what about Tertullian?..why would he deny established tradition (if Mary’s three-fold virginity was so established in his day?)…and if it wasn’t established (WRT all 3 aspects of the claim) why should we not view the claim of Mary’s PV as anything but a man-made innovation (in whole or in part)?

 

[campeador]

St. Ambrose (339-397)— “And Joseph, the just man, assuredly did not so completely loose his mind as to seek carnal intercourse with the Mother of God.”

 

[Radical]

St. Ambrose (339-397)— “And Joseph, the just man, assuredly did not so completely loose his mind as to seek carnal intercourse with the Mother of God.”

right, so 300 years after the possibility, Ambrose declared that Mary didn’t have sex with Joseph. Did he assert that his declaration was a 300 year old tradition or was it the product of his reasoning (as to what one could expect)? …in either event, surely 300 years is plenty of time for pious imaginations to produce such a claim, right?

 

[rev_kevin]

Gal 1
18 Then after three years, I went up to Jerusalem to get acquainted with Cephas** and stayed with him fifteen days. 19 I saw none of the other apostles—only James**, the Lord’s brother****. 20 I assure you before God that what I am writing you is no lie.

1 Cor 15
6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers and sisters at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born.

I am quite confused by your explanation. I just want to know your reason, that’s all.

You said, James which is described as Jesus’ brother was the one in 1Cor 15:7 but not the one in Gal1:19.

For a person who based his argument on the Bible, you have not been convincing, in fact there is nothing to support your contention.

In Gal 1:19, Paul said James, the Lord’s brother. And yet you say this is not James the brother of Jesus.

In 1 Cor 15:7, Paul was only mentioning Jesus appeared to James – he did not say James was Jesus’ brother and yet you said this is the James in John 7:5 where James is not mentioned by name at all.

How do you prove that James was one of the brothers in John 7:5 since his name was not mentioned there nor did Paul categorically stated that the James in 1 Cor 15:7 was Jesus’ brother?

Look like you have to review your reason again, as this one does not make sense, at least to me, as I listen to your clarification.

This James it the Lord’s brother, not James the brother of John the apostle, but James the brother of the Lord, named in Acts 12:17 15:13 and 21:18. This James was not one of the 12 but her rose to great dignity and influence in the church at Jerusalem. He is called the brother of the Lord, to distinguish him from James the son of Zebedee and James the son of Alpheus, who were of the 12.
The writer of the book of James, a leader of the church in Jerusalem was James, Jesus’ brother, not James the apostle.

 

[ConstantineTG]

This James it the Lord’s brother, not James the brother of John the apostle, but James the brother of the Lord, named in Acts 12:17 15:13 and 21:18. This James was not one of the 12 but her rose to great dignity and influence in the church at Jerusalem. He is called the brother of the Lord, to distinguish him from James the son of Zebedee and James the son of Alpheus, who were of the 12.
The writer of the book of James, a leader of the church in Jerusalem was James, Jesus’ brother, not James the apostle.

That still doesn’t say he’s Mary’s son.

 

[campeador]

right, so 300 years after the possibility, Ambrose declared that Mary didn’t have sex with Joseph. Did he assert that his declaration was a 300 year old tradition or was it the product of his reasoning (as to what one could expect)? …in either event, surely 300 years is plenty of time for pious imaginations to produce such a claim, right?

Mariology:

Ultimately, the Catholic understanding of Mary as “Ever-Virgin” rests on a combination of revealed Truth and common sense on man’s ability to observe relationships in the natural sphere and translate his findings into the supernatural one, an ability described by St. Paul as a coming to a knowledge of God through His works. When all the treatises and essays are put aside, it’s the power of old fashioned Reason, illumined by Faith and a sincere good will, that touches the heart with certainty and conviction.

 

[Nicea325]

Thats right and I will continue to say she had other children.

That is right and I will continue to say you are wrong!

 

[Nicea325]

Not as important as Catholics believe Mary stayed a virgin all her life.

It wouldn’t change my faith if she remained a virgin but it probably would change yours.

I have said time and time again here that I am not anti-Catholic and that I have nothing against Catholics. I am not trying to prove the Catholic church is wrong. I am discussing what I believe and my belief only, no church, or religion belief, just my own.

You assume to much about what Catholicism truly teaches. Explain how it would change our faith? If you are not trying to prove the church wrong,then why you consistently argue against Catholic doctrine? Case in point,sacrament of reconciliation?

 

[adrift]

Yes she was in the prosess of getting married but that don’t mean she had sex with Joseph prior to the marriage.

Marriage occured in two steps. The first step had already occurred by the time the angel appeared to Mary. The second step would be Joseph taking Mary into his home. That she was his wife is clearly stated in scripture.

When the angel told Mary she would have a baby she was troubled

,
It doesn’t say that what it says is that Mary was troubled at the Angel’s greeting not about having a baby.

its not everyday a angel comes to someone and tells them they were going to have a child. "When Mary saw him, (the angel) she was troubled at his saying, and cast in her mind what manner of salutation this should be.

"

Exactly at the salutation not that she was having a baby.
Mary said to the angel, 'How can this be, seeing I know not a man." I know not a man, meaning: I have not slept with a man, I have not had intercourse with a man, I have not had sex with a man. Mary could not understand what the angel was telling her and thats when the angel explained to her how this was going to happen.

It doesn’t make sense. Note she does not say Joseph and I are going to have baby which would have been the normal response of a wife. She doesn’t even say that Joseph and her are not having relations BUT that she doesn’t know ANY man. Not that she doesn’t sleep with Joseph but that she doesn’t sleep with any man.

Then, by all means, refute it. I look forward to seeing your evidence against the inspired Word of God.

Indeed that will be an interesting read.