Mass and displays of ?excessive piety

[mullenpm]

A poster said he/she was told that because genuflecting before receiving Holy Communion is not in the GIRM that means it is not permitted.

At the Daily Mass on EWTN almost everyone either fully or partially genuflects before receiving Communion; including, the brothers who are serving at Mass.

So, I don’t know how it is not “permitted.” I would venture to say that EWTN rarely, if ever, does anything at Daily Mass that is not permitted.:nope:

 

[Yellow_Belle]

When I first came to the parish I’m in now, there was a woman (not a parishioner) who used to attend the 10.00 am Mass on Sundays - the ‘crowded’ one She would bow dramatically from the waist just before receiving both species. It was distracting for newcomers, and startled one or two visiting priests who thought she was attempting to head-butt them, but in general no-one remarked upon her behaviour. That is, until we got a new parish Sister one of whose duties it was to be the EMHC distributing the Precious Blood. The Sister’s first day out, this woman did her elaborate bow just as Sister was offering her the chalice. The woman effectively head-butted the chalice out of Sister’s hands and it crashed to the ground, spilling the Precious Blood. Needless to say, we never saw that woman again.

 

[kristie_m]

When I first came to the parish I’m in now, there was a woman (not a parishioner) who used to attend the 10.00 am Mass on Sundays - the ‘crowded’ one She would bow dramatically from the waist just before receiving both species. It was distracting for newcomers, and startled one or two visiting priests who thought she was attempting to head-butt them, but in general no-one remarked upon her behaviour. That is, until we got a new parish Sister one of whose duties it was to be the EMHC distributing the Precious Blood. The Sister’s first day out, this woman did her elaborate bow just as Sister was offering her the chalice. The woman effectively head-butted the chalice out of Sister’s hands and it crashed to the ground, spilling the Precious Blood. Needless to say, we never saw that woman again.

I also bow before receiving the Eucharist in both species. However, I’ve learned to do it a bit further back so as not to knock it out of Father’s hand.

 

[JPUSC]

Actually, I have seen this happen at our local Priory of St. John. The brothers and the nuns do this during the consecration and during the Ecce Agnus Dei. When I have gone to Mass there, I have done it as well. The pews have enough space to do this without hitting your head when you come up. It is really a moving experience. Of course, the brothers and the nuns sit on little teeny tiny benches and they kneel on little rugs. These little rugs are also at each pew. It felt a little strange at first, but, after awhile, there is a sense of humility. It reminds me of the comments that the Holy Father made regarding prostration during his homily for the Solemnity of Corpus Christi.

One time, my PV (when he served as rector of the cathedral) did this while the deacon was placing the Sacred Host back into the tabernacle. When he exposes the Blessed Sacrament at the local hospital chapel (after Mass), he also does this on occasion.

Of course, at the Cathedral, I’ve pretty much seen it all. There was a woman who would come in dressed in an outfit similar to one of the Marian statues. Sometimes, she would come in with blue and white garments. On other occasions, she would come in with a brown vestige similar to Carmel. During Palm Sunday, she would come in red garments and carry a huge palm and floral cross and wave it during the Proclamation of the Passion. I haven’t seen her in a while.

LOL, reminds me of when I saw someone dressed like Jesus during Mass with a robe and long hair and a calm serene gaze.

Did the woman come dressed in robe-like garments like Mary or was it more of an outfit with Marian colors?

 

[Sam_Maloney]

I don’t think so, really.

Scares the heck out of me when older parishoners kneel or genuflect in the middle of the aisle with no handholds to get back up, but its the physical, not the spiritual aspect that worries me.

And I know of some couples that insist on holding hands and walking up to communion together [so there are 3 abreast in the aisle, instead of 2] as a sign of their spiritual union, but I’m not sure it’s based in piety.

Compared to the disrespect and impiety, not even a drop in the bucket. Heck, not even a drop in the ocean…

 

[Rachel_J]

I hold my hands open during the Our Father, and while it is common in some cultures for nearly everyone to do so, in Australia barely anyone does it (unless from Latin American/Italian/Asian background). Sometimes I feel that it is something that draws attention so I should refrain from, but on the other hand it helps me to concentrate on the prayer and I feel I should stop being paranoid about being judged.

As for seeing any acts of ‘piety’ at mass that disrupt me, I haven’t really encountered any.

That answers a question I’ve been wondering about. I see this at the Cathedral and have noticed it is nearly always those who are of obvious Asian or, less commonly, South American descent. I never thought it of it as excessive piety, just something I found ‘odd’ in neither a good or bad way. Coming from a pentecostal background I’m used to seeing people hold their hands open… I was wondering if perhaps there was a lot of converts, but found that explanation lacking giving the racial aspect.

 

[Rachel_J]

I wouldn’t class it as excessive but there is a lady who is downright annoying at the daily mass at the Cathedral. About 5 minutes before the midday mass she stands up and “leads” in prayer. It is very noticeable that it confuses the majority. The Cathedral is in the middle of a busy CBD and whilst there are the ‘regulars’, at least half the attendees aren’t daily mass goers - they’ve just managed to have lunch at the right time and decided to go to mass. Every day half of those in attendance look up in confusion and are uncertain how to react. Do they stand? Do they remain sitting? Do they continue in prayer?

I find it very distracting. If I am at daily mass, it is because I needed to centre myself on Christ and wanted to spend time in prayer with him. To be interrupted because she has decided to stand and pray for the whole Cathedral to hear is frustrating. I don’t want to be disrespect to the Lord and not stand (and as such usually do), but what I need is to be allowed to be in quiet personal prayer. I wish she would stop. The mass is our communal prayer.

 

[Cat]

So, am I to get up from the piano and kneel down, or do I remain seated during the Consecration? I’m asking seriously because there are some who think I should kneel and some who think that when I do I’m being excessively pious. I want to know what the CAF folks think I should do.

I can’t kneel without a prie dieu, and even if the church provided the pianist with a prie dieu, I am afraid that my bad knee would lock and I wouldn’t be able to get up without a lot of noise and fuss and possible groaning from real pain! I’m very serious about this. There are times that just sitting for a long period of time hurts my knee and makes it so stiff that I can’t stand up without holding onto someone or something. (e.g., at a theater).

So have a heart, people! Don’t judge the pianist when he/she just sits there. C’mon, now. Be nice. Always assume the best of people, rather than assuming the worst.

In fact, we shouldn’t judge anyone, unless their actions are sacrilegious or perverted.

I think people ought to attend to themselves and their postures and gestures, and never mind what others do, unless it is something that is sacrilegious or perverted. We don’t know what’s going on in the lives of others. Whenever I see anyone doing something different, I assume that they are from a different country or culture, and I don’t worry about it.

Someone earlier mentioned the loss of reverence that has occurred over the years. I would say that many of us have developed an excessive sensibility to distractions. When I read Imitation of Christ, I received the strong impression that we need to develop imperviousness (detachment?) to the distractions of life and stop looking so much at others and what they do. I’m working on that.

 

[RosalieM]

After reading more posts, I’ve decided not to forgo my partial genuflect before receiving communion (i physically can’t do a full genuflect). There is another thing, however, that used to distract me but I’ve built up a tolerance. That is when people whisper/mimic what the priest is saying (out loud) in the parts of the mass where we should be quiet. In short, they are audibly saying the mass along with the priest.
There’s a lot of shenanigans going on in my parish that I find disheartening, (with other parishioners who I am trying to love). I have to increase my praying and contemplation at home.

 

[Aramis]

A poster said he/she was told that because genuflecting before receiving Holy Communion is not in the GIRM that means it is not permitted.

At the Daily Mass on EWTN almost everyone either fully or partially genuflects before receiving Communion; including, the brothers who are serving at Mass.

So, I don’t know how it is not “permitted.” I would venture to say that EWTN rarely, if ever, does anything at Daily Mass that is not permitted.:nope:

the GIRM specifies a sign of reverence before reception standing. Genuflection, profound bow… both work.

 

[Sarabande]

I think people ought to attend to themselves and their postures and gestures, and never mind what others do, unless it is something that is sacrilegious or perverted. We don’t know what’s going on in the lives of others. Whenever I see anyone doing something different, I assume that they are from a different country or culture, and I don’t worry about it.

I agree with this. As I’ve mentioned before, some of the saints have done things that we would consider strange, over-the-top and weird, but it was part of their devotion at the time and who’s to say they weren’t right in that - especially since they are saints?

Someone earlier mentioned the loss of reverence that has occurred over the years. I would say that many of us have developed an excessive sensibility to distractions. When I read Imitation of Christ, I received the strong impression that we need to develop imperviousness (detachment?) to the distractions of life and stop looking so much at others and what they do. I’m working on that.

Although I agree with this up to a point, there is truth in the other poster’s observation regarding the loss of reverence at mass. Since my concious memory basically starts in the 80s, I don’t know what Catholic mass was like prior to that, but I do know plenty of older Catholic friends and family who were around before then. Almost unanimously, despite the fact that some of these Catholics or former Catholics are liberal, conservative or in between, they have all mentioned the change reverence during mass. This is especially from those who have stayed Catholic throughout the decades. I know that for my uncle and aunt who are now born-agains, although they didn’t describe it directly as such, they were not into reverence at mass and the discipline that went along with it.

For older friends of mine (I’ve always tended to make friends with people 10-20-30 years older than me), they have more than once talked about how when they were younger, there was this awe, respect and reverence when you entered a church - whether or not mass was going on. They remembered being in grade school and they and their classmates going into church during recess just to spend time with God. It was ingrained in them by their parents, the priests, sisters and teachers. I know from teaching music in a Catholic school and having to run children’s choir practice in the church and just from my own observations in other churches, that same kind of reverence is not as prevalent. And it’s not the children’s faults. They just aren’t taught that as I soon discovered. One day while starting choir practice, the children were just more rowdy than usual - as is expected with kids. No reverence or respect was being made once they entered the Church and they were acting inappropriately. They usually knew to be more quiet, but I realized that day that they didn’t understand “WHY” there should be more quiet. I was kind, but stern in asking them why should there be more reverence when entering the church and then telling them Jesus’s Presence was there in the Tabernacle and that our actions in Church should reflect that His Presence was there. It did work and I know that the older children thought about it more, not to mention we always started with a prayer prior to practice.

But these are things that need to be instilled in not only the adults, but in my generation and my parents’ generation (baby boomers) as some seemed to have lost it.

For people of my age, who grew up in the 80s and 90s, I know that even with those who aren’t that great in practicing their faith, they have noticed a change in reverence and even a show of piety not seen before (I’m not talking about holding hands - that’s been around and most my age would not consider that as an act of reverence or piety, but more of just either corny or “who cares” attitude with those who don’t do it). It’s usually not taken as strange - they usually (at least with people I know) don’t know how to take it and it gets the wheels in their heads turning.

 

[TurboVW]

I avoid sounding judgemental, but I really do feel the same, and I come from a more traditional Italian-Catholic family.

Yes, there’s a lacking of piety at Mass today, but there’s some people out there who over-do it, and we notice. I admit in the past I was prone to this, but I realize that what we do should be for Him and not to mislead people, or to make others feel uncomfortable because our faith depends on making certain excessive movements with our bodies.

When I was in college, the traditional consecrated lay order Miles Jesu was always present at our campus (went to a Catholic university) and everyone could see them doing overly-pious body movements in prayer and at Masses (excessive extra-long bowing and genuflecting, and the addition of some phrase they created to the end of every decade of the Rosary.)

The church downtown near my office is filled everyday with many, many different kinds of people, and there is evidence of this as well here, with people doing rituals in front of every statue, making overly-pious gestures, long genuflecting, etc in the Communion line. It’s good to show piety, but we have to remember keep humility as well and not become a showboat on two legs.

 

[tcraig]

While one occasionally is witness to disruptive and even dysfunctional behavior during mass, does anyone have any thoughts of instances where the laity present engage in demeanors which one might consider to be excessively pious, i.e. sign oneself repeatedly during mass outside of the rubrics or bow profoundly when one is kneeling?

I’ve seen people perform acts that might normally be construed as excessively pious, but their behavior is so meek and focused inward that it’s not disturbing at all.

I’ve also seen people perform acts that might normally be construed as excessively pious, but their pride shines through in a “look at how devout I am” way that makes them come across as obnoxious jerks.

I think it all has to do with the inward intention of the person performing the act as to how it “registers” with others observing it, whether it’s disruptive or not.

 

[irishswtpea]

OK… question for you all about acts of (excessive) piety.

When I’m the accompanist at Mass, what do I do in between the Sanctus and the Memorial Acclamation? Do I get up from the piano bench and kneel, or do I remain seated at the piano?

When I’m the accompanist at Mass, I generally stay sitting at the piano bench. It’s distracting if you get up to kneel, then sit back down. I was discouraged from doing that, and in the end, it makes sense.

 

[LilyM]

I hold my hands open during the Our Father, and while it is common in some cultures for nearly everyone to do so, in Australia barely anyone does it (unless from Latin American/Italian/Asian background).

That’s not true in my experience, although it may be more prevalent among people from those particular cultures.

 

[graceandglory]

That is when people whisper/mimic what the priest is saying (out loud) in the parts of the mass where we should be quiet. In short, they are audibly saying the mass along with the priest.

Honestly, they might be totally unaware of it, and be in a different, more contemplative mind at that moment. I’d try to overlook it.

See, there really is no knowing what is in people’s hearts. What seems to be excessive and showy might be. And it might not.

 

[RosalieM]

True, I don’t know what’s in their hearts. I still wish they’d be quiet. It could be I’m too sensitive to noise and sounds because I live in such a noisy situation I have to wear ear plugs most of the time. But I am becoming more tolerant of all sorts of behavior. I imagine how a nun or priest would react to all sorts of shenanigans. They’d probably not react at all; just accept everyone for who they are and pray for them.

 

[Ruthie]

I wonder how DH and I were perceived at the parish we visited in Arizona… We were the only ones not holding hands during the Our Father!

God bless us all,

Ruthie

 

[BSHoop96]

My dear friend in Christ,

I fear that you might be highly confused?

There is so Little Piety in most Catholic Church’s these day’s that a “making of a sign of the cross” with Holy water might appear as “excessive?”

Please, please share with me what you consider to be “**excessively pious” **in the very presence of the God that created you and me?

Ordinary minister of the Eucharist, Communion in the hands, laity flooding the Sanctuary, talking in Church as if it really were a “gathering Space” and not God’s house of Worship… When’s the last time you saw someone genuflect in the presence of the Reservation tabernacle?

I’m missing your point my friend. Please feel free to enlighten me:blush:

God bless you and welcome to the Catholic Forum.

PJM m.c.

You’re overreacting. Reread what he said please. He said REPEATED signs of the cross OUTSIDE of the rubrics. “Repeated” was the key word. Perhaps the person is overly scrupulous or this is coming from OCD. A constant repetition of something is sometimes indicative of another problem. And before you even go there…NO, I don’t think every devout person has a problem.

 

[Sarabande]

I wonder how DH and I were perceived at the parish we visited in Arizona… We were the only ones not holding hands during the Our Father!

God bless us all,

Ruthie

Oh… so that was you!!! I thought you were trying to show how much more prayerful and holy you were by not holding my hand.

(Just in case my joke doesn’t get across through the words - I’m just kidding! Only wanted to add a little lightness to the discussion. )