Mass delusion or genuine miracle?

[joe370]

Er, I think you’ve missed the point of my post, or perhaps you intended to reply to someone else? I am not denying the validity of it. Indeed for the sake of discussion I’ve assumed not only that what the witnesses reported was what they genuinely experienced, but ALSO that it was a miracle (a supernatural event caused by God).

The issues I have raised (God undertaking deception and submitting himself to a prediction and test cycle - the scientific method) only apply IF it was a genuine miracle. Would you like to answer the questions I asked Poof? Here they are for your convenience.

“Would you say that the event at Fatima (assuming for the moment it was miraculous) was therefore a sort of deception? If not, why not?”

And

“Do you believe God will submit himself to the scientific method again? Or was this a one off event? If the latter why?”

I apologize. I forgot that you do in fact view it as a miracle from God. :thumbsup:I tried to see things through your eyes but I see no deception. Trust me, I took my catholic hat off and put on my ol’ agnostic hat, but nothing…

So you believe it was a miracle from God, but a deception as well, from God? You are probably smarter than me, and perhaps I am missing something, so could you please show proof of deception, again? I just want to know how God deceived all of those people with a miracle? Why as well…? The miraculous deception that led to so many conversions…

 

[joe370]

I’m trying to be honest. As of yet it seems to be agreed that the people may have experienced certain perceptions but it does seem to be known what happened. There are also no high fidelity recordings of the event. As far as I know it’s not presently in my capabilities to determine whether or not this is a “miracle.” And I don’t mind saying so.

I’m content to just let it be.

That’s cool…

 

[joe370]

There is something else I didn’t see mentioned yet. It was a wet/rainy morning, the sun came out and suddenly everything was “miraculusly*”(*sp) dry. I take that as evideance of God’s hand in this, ergo genuine miracle. (I thought there were other signs that day, would have to look it up)

If thousands of eyewitnesses will not do for non-believers then nothing will I suppose… I mean, other than God revealing Himself to an atheist, and even then he or she might attribute it to some sort of delusion… I kind of used to be that way myself…

 

[dskysmine]

I’m don’t think I’m missing the point but rather raising an additional couple points.

But the sun that shines at Fatima is the same sun that shines on Rome and on everywhere else on earth. So if something happened to the sun then it would have been visible everywhere. If something didn’t happen to the sun then what people witnessed was a very impressive illusion, which is a form of deception.*

It doesn’t matter to my point how the illusion was achieved, so sure let’s say God twisted the laws of nature locally which made it look as if the sun was dancing. If the sun wasn’t REALLY dancing then this is an illusion and hence a deception.*

Sure if he exists then he could create illusions of the sun disappearing, reappearing and turning into a pink elephant if he wants. But if he’s making it look like that in one place and not in another then one of those impressions is an illusion. Hence deception.

But that’s a problem of physics, not deception (thus not a problem for an omnipotent god if one exists). If on the other hand Jesus had appeared to walk on water to those in the boat, but appeared to get a boat across the water to those on land watching then we’d have to conclude that at least one of those appearances was false (or that they were looking at different Jesus’s which is no less a deception of course).

The two cases are different in that with the walking on water we are told that he really did walk on water, not that he appeared to walk on water to some people but appeared not to to other people. If on the other hand he’d created an illusion of having walked on water for some people but didn’t REALLY do it. That would still be impressive but we’d have the problem with Jesus undertaking deception.*

My friend you are looking at it in the most strange way. The issue here is not of “deception” or “no deception”. The people that experienced the miracle had a profound experience of the Divine. The question here is “Why would God make them experience this and not others?”. That is the hard question to answer because there were believers there that did not see anything. They went there probably to be able to see the Blessed Mother and God choose to manifest Himself to some atheists and not them. That is the greater Mystery. And that is one that we cannot answer to you.
If an experience of the Divine would make me see the end of the World while no one else could have seen it why would I not share it with my fellow brethren?
I don’t think the adjective “deception” is really applicable to the Supernatural. What happened there was True because God is Truth and He manifested Himself to those people. The fact that He chooses not to manifest Himself to everyone is the puzzling part, even for me… and I am Portuguese but I still Love Him with all my heart. I wish I could experience the Divine myself so closely but have not yet have been chosen for such.
I pray that I can better understand His Will because for me, simple man, it does not make much logic… but God does not need to explain that to me, and so I am content. I have to… I can choose between hatred, like the fallen angels did or choose Him like Jesus showed me in the Cross, the nonsensical Cross where Innocence was immolated. And in that Cross He saved me. So I will not choose hatred over the nonsensical. I will not put Hubris ahead of Love. You must look into yourself and search for that… Jesus also asked “Why?” but even if the sky did not open to give an answer, the answer came from within Himself… Love not logic. Because Love all forgives… (makes sense?)… It all trusts… (how is this logical?)… It all endures (who can all endure?). This is “Divine Logic”… not human.
I am sorry that this might not make sense to you, it also makes no sense to me… but I keep loving and then it works.

May God bless you with His Infinite Grace and show His Love.
D.

 

[Candide_West]

Since I’m a little short on time at the moment I’ll respond to your main point now and leave the rest for tomorrow.

No worries.

And isn’t the sun that he “twisted” locally (Fatima) the same sun found everywhere else?*

Ahh, afraid you may have misread there, I said he may have twisted the laws of physics locally to make the sun dance. Not that he twisted the sun itself, otherwise you’re right it would have been visible elsewhere.

As you said, the sun that shines at Fatima is no different from that shines in France or Los Angeles because there is only one sun. So by saying God “twisted” the laws of the sun at Fatima is no different from saying he twisted the laws of the sun in France. God twisted the laws of ONE sun, its just that he made the sun do extraordinary things in one place while making it remain normal everywhere else. Again, God twisted the laws of nature. That’s why its called a miracle - it defies science and goes beyond the natural order of things. I have a hard time believing that an omnipotent God who resides outside of the space and time, cannot make the sun “spin and dance” in one place while making it stay in its usual state elsewhere without resorting to deception.*

Again throwing back the question, is it impossible for an omnipotent God to make the sun (the one sun that we see everyday) “spin and dance” in one place while making it remain in its usual state elsewhere without resorting to deception?

If you consider this to be a genuine miracle the you essentially have two options here, either at least one appearance of the sun is some kind of illusion (which means you’ve got God deceiving people) or you have to throw out the law of non-contradiction (the one that says that something cannot both be and not be at the same time).

The former seems to contradict many Christian beliefs about God. The latter removes the basis for logic and our rational understanding of the universe.*

 

[Poof]

No worries.

Thanks for understanding.

Ahh, afraid you may have misread there, I said he may have twisted the laws of physics locally to make the sun dance. Not that he twisted the sun itself, otherwise you’re right it would have been visible elsewhere.

So you believe that God did not twist the sun at Fatima? The sun was not altered in any way when it broke out of the dark rainy sky, swirled around, sent out great shafts of colored light, tinted objects on the ground, came crashing down with fiery heat and lastly, went back to its original place? Are you saying that God made the sun appear to do all this without touching or twisting it?

I have three questions for you.

1. Do you believe that the dancing sun at Fatima was the real sun?
2. Do you believe that God did not alter the sun in any way during the course of the miracle?
3. If you say yes to numbers 1 and 2 while believing that everything was a deception, then how could the sun appear to be dancing while at the same time, not be dancing? (using the law of non-contradiction you keep throwing at me).
4. If you say no to numbers 1 and 2, then what happened to the real sun and where was it during the miracle?

If you consider this to be a genuine miracle the you essentially have two options here, either at least one appearance of the sun is some kind of illusion (which means you’ve got God deceiving people) or you have to throw out the law of non-contradiction (the one that says that something cannot both be and not be at the same time).

The former seems to contradict many Christian beliefs about God. The latter removes the basis for logic and our rational understanding of the universe.*

Here’s why we don’t see eye-to-eye Candide . Do you think God is limited when it comes to deciding and being able to perform miracles of certain grandeur? Because I sure don’t.

Again, this is God were talking about. An all-powerful being who resides out of space and time. The same being who who created the universe and imposed the laws that govern it. God is not subject to the laws of nature. God does not conform to the laws of nature, rather, the laws of nature conform to him (whatever he wills). These things that God does may seem impossible, irrational and even a plain out defiance of logic to us but that is because these rules that are being broken are the same rules that govern us. As beings who reside in the universe, we are governed by its laws (we have no choice!) and we can’t imagine them being otherwise! But this is God were talking about and he has no limits.

Since you didn’t really answer the question, I’ll throw it back again. A simple yes or no followed by whatever you wan’t to say will suffice.

Is it impossible for an omnipotent God to make the sun (the one sun that we see everyday) “spin and dance” in one place while making it remain in its usual state elsewhere without resorting to deception?

 

[Poof]

Original with Corrections

I have three questions for you.

1. Do you believe that the dancing sun at Fatima was the real sun?
2. Do you believe that God did not alter the sun in any way during the course of the miracle?
   -]3) /-]3a) If you say yes to numbers 1 and 2 while believing that everything was a deception, then how could the sun appear to be dancing while at the same time, not be dancing? (using the law of non-contradiction you keep throwing at me).
   -]4)/-] 3b)

If you say no to number-]s/-] 1 -]and 2/-], then what happened to the real sun and where was it during the miracle?

Corrected

I have three questions for you.

1. Do you believe that the dancing sun at Fatima was the real sun?
2. Do you believe that God did not alter the sun in any way during the course of the miracle?
   3a) If you say yes to numbers 1 and 2 while believing that everything was a deception, then how could the sun appear to be dancing while at the same time, not be dancing? (using the law of non-contradiction you keep throwing at me).
   3b) If you say no to number 1 , then what happened to the real sun and where was it during the miracle?

 

[Candide_West]

I apologize. I forgot that you do in fact view it as a miracle from God.

Not quite, for the sake of discussion I have assumed that it was genuine etc. clearly as a non-theist I don’t believe this to really be the case.

I tried to see things through your eyes but I see no deception. Trust me, I took my catholic hat off and put on my ol’ agnostic hat, but nothing…

It’s not about religious views so your hat switching won’t help at all I’m afraid. It’s about non-contradiction. If you hold that things can happen and not happen simultaneously then there is indeed no need for deception. However if you believe that logic is valid and the universe intelligible then at least one of any two contradictory statements must be false (ie the sun was dancing, the sun was not dancing).

So you believe it was a miracle from God, but a deception as well, from God? You are probably smarter than me, and perhaps I am missing something, so could you please show proof of deception, again?

1. Some people observed the sun dancing (those at Fatima)
2. Some people observed the sun not dancing (everyone else)
3. The sun cannot have been both dancing and not dancing simultaneously (law of non-contradiction)
4. Therefore at least one of the observations made in 1. and 2. Was an illusion.

*I just want to know how God deceived all of those people with a miracle?

How? No idea, does it matter? Are you suggesting that the god you believe in would have some difficulty in bending the laws of physics to create a false impression.

*Why as well…? The miraculous deception that led to so many conversions…

Well maybe that was his motivation then. Personally I’m not really interested in making much conjecture on why the god you believe in would do X.*

 

[Candide_West]

My friend you are looking at it in the most strange way. The issue here is not of “deception” or “no deception”.*

Umm, hate to say it but that is the issue I raised here. I think it’s an important one because IF this was a genuine miracle then God sometimes deceives people, which surely ought to be taken into account in Christian doctrine?

 

[Candide_West]

Thanks for understanding.

So you believe that God did not twist the sun at Fatima? The sun was not altered in any way when it broke out of the dark rainy sky, swirled around, sent out great shafts of colored light, tinted objects on the ground, came crashing down with fiery heat and lastly, went back to its original place? Are you saying that God made the sun appear to do all this without touching or twisting it?

Er??? Did you read my post?*

My views are irrelevant here. Whether he ACTUALLY made the sun dance (and created an illusion of it not dancing for other people) or ACTUALLY left the sun as it was (and created an illusion of it dancing) in EITHER case he’s still creating an illusion - deceiving people.

Which observation was the illusion is irrelevant. How he created the illusion is irrelevant. Exactly what the illusion was is irrelevant. What matters is that IF this was a genuine miracle then God created an illusion - deceived people.*

I have three questions for you.

1. Do you believe that the dancing sun at Fatima was the real sun?

No belief either way, it doesn’t matter to the points I have made either way.*

1. Do you believe that God did not alter the sun in any way during the course of the miracle?

No belief either way, it doesn’t matter to the points I have made either way.*

1. If you say yes to numbers 1 and 2 while believing that everything was a deception, then how could the sun appear to be dancing while at the same time, not be dancing? (using the law of non-contradiction you keep throwing at me).

Er, you can’t say yes to both 1 and 2. Because that would be counter to the law of non-contradiction (1. Says that the sun was dancing 2. Says the sun was not dancing).

But of course the sun could APPEAR to be dancing but not actually BE dancing, that would be God creating an illusion - deceiving people. Thats the point I keep making.*

1. If you say no to numbers 1 and 2, then what happened to the real sun and where was it during the miracle?

No belief either way, it doesn’t matter to the points I have made either way.*

Here’s why we don’t see eye-to-eye Candide . Do you think God is limited when it comes to deciding and being able to perform miracles of certain grandeur? Because I sure don’t.*

Neither do I, for the sake of this discussion I’ve assumed that God can do anything which is logically possible. This is the standard interpretation of omnipotence.

Again, this is God were talking about. An all-powerful being who resides out of space and time. The same being who who created the universe and imposed the laws that govern it. God is not subject to the laws of nature. God does not conform to the laws of nature, rather, the laws of nature conform to him (whatever he wills). These things that God does may seem impossible, irrational and even a plain out defiance of logic to us but that is because these rules that are being broken are the same rules that govern us. As beings who reside in the universe, we are governed by its laws (we have no choice!) and we can’t imagine them being otherwise! But this is God were talking about and he has no limits.*

So you are saying that God can do the logically impossible? He can create married bachelors and four side triangles, make stones so heavy he can’t lift them and both act and not act simultaneously? You understand that this means throwing the law of non-contradiction in the bin yes? This kinda wrecks the basis of logic and rationality.

Since you didn’t really answer the question, I’ll throw it back again. A simple yes or no followed by whatever you wan’t to say will suffice.

I did answer your question. The question you ask below is a different question (you’ve added on the bit about resorting to deception).

Is it impossible for an omnipotent God to make the sun (the one sun that we see everyday) “spin and dance” in one place while making it remain in its usual state elsewhere without resorting to deception?

No, because that would be a logical contradiction, just like asking if God can create a stone so heavy he can’t lift it or make a four sided triangle.*

If you say that the sun was both dancing and not dancing simultaneously then you’ll have to forget about rational understanding of existence or logical discussion. This is because you’ll have to accept that just because something happened doesn’t mean it didn’t happen. Just because something is non-existent doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist… Etc.*

 

[dskysmine]

Umm, hate to say it but that is the issue I raised here. I think it’s an important one because IF this was a genuine miracle then God sometimes deceives people, which surely ought to be taken into account in Christian doctrine?

If for you “deception” is not giving all the information then it is pretty much obvious that what God does would fall under that definition. The problem is that “deception” is a social meaningful word… but it cannot relate to the supernatural. God does not give us every information He has, probably our brains would be unable to understand the whole of Knowledge. What I was questioning was the use of the word “deception”… which in the case of God does not make sense. It’s not possible for human reason to understand the whole Divine Plan…

 

[epan]

Since the planetary motion, among othe things, were not affected; Also because this event was only alleged to be seen locally, when the sun is visible over about one half of the planet; Also, because geologic disturbances; Also no severe tidal events or flooding… Whatever is alleged to happen was delusional.

 

[Candide_West]

If for you “deception” is not giving all the information then it is pretty much obvious that what God does would fall under that definition. The problem is that “deception” is a social meaningful word… but it cannot relate to the supernatural. God does not give us every information He has, probably our brains would be unable to understand the whole of Knowledge. What I was questioning was the use of the word “deception”… which in the case of God does not make sense. It’s not possible for human reason to understand the whole Divine Plan…

But that would be a misuse of the term deception. In order to deceive someone you need to do more than simply withhold all the relevant information, you need to deliberately create a false impression (and God can only do things deliberately, he can never have an accident). Here are some definitions (I put “define deceive” into google)

1. (of a person) Cause (someone) to believe something that is not true, typically in order to gain some personal advantage.
2. (of a thing) Give a mistaken impression: “the area may seem to offer nothing of interest, but don’t be deceived”.

Either of these definitions could be used to describe quite adequately what God supposedly did at Fatima - he caused people to believe the sun was dancing when it was not (or alternately caused people to believe it was not dancing when it was). He gave them the mistaken impression of astrological events which were not occurring.*

If you have an alternative view of events which means God did perform a miracle, and didn’t deceive, without creating logical contradictions thenI would be very interested to hear it. As yet I can’t think of one.

 

[joe370]

Since the planetary motion, among othe things, were not affected; Also because this event was only alleged to be seen locally, when the sun is visible over about one half of the planet; Also, because geologic disturbances; Also no severe tidal events or flooding… Whatever is alleged to happen was delusional.

You can keep looking for a natural explanation, but you will not find one; It is called a miracle.

 

[dskysmine]

But that would be a misuse of the term deception. In order to deceive someone you need to do more than simply withhold all the relevant information, you need to deliberately create a false impression (and God can only do things deliberately, he can never have an accident). Here are some definitions (I put “define deceive” into google)

1. (of a person) Cause (someone) to believe something that is not true, typically in order to gain some personal advantage.
2. (of a thing) Give a mistaken impression: “the area may seem to offer nothing of interest, but don’t be deceived”.

Either of these definitions could be used to describe quite adequately what God supposedly did at Fatima - he caused people to believe the sun was dancing when it was not (or alternately caused people to believe it was not dancing when it was). He gave them the mistaken impression of astrological events which were not occurring.*

If you have an alternative view of events which means God did perform a miracle, and didn’t deceive, without creating logical contradictions thenI would be very interested to hear it. As yet I can’t think of one.

Regarding the first one: What did God gain?
Regarding the second one: You mean the area of Fatima deceived people? That doesn’t make a lot of sense. You said God deceived… not the area… right?

You cannot properly call deception to what happened in Fatima using those definitions. Some people were in that same area and did not see the miracle… and some of the ones that didn’t see it were believers. Using the same logic one could argue that God is constantly “deceiving” us by not showing Himself more obviously.
The matter of the fact is that Supernatural and Natural are not the same thing so you cannot say that because something Supernatural is not Natural (which it isn’t by definition) it is a deceit.

 

[joe370]

If for you “deception” is not giving all the information then it is pretty much obvious that what God does would fall under that definition. The problem is that “deception” is a social meaningful word… but it cannot relate to the supernatural. God does not give us every information He has, probably our brains would be unable to understand the whole of Knowledge. What I was questioning was the use of the word “deception”… which in the case of God does not make sense. It’s not possible for human reason to understand the whole Divine Plan…

 

[joe370]

Er??? Did you read my post?*My views are irrelevant here. Whether he ACTUALLY made the sun dance (and created an illusion of it not dancing for other people) or ACTUALLY left the sun as it was (and created an illusion of it dancing) in EITHER case he’s still creating an illusion - deceiving people.

Those folks asked for a miracle and God provided one.

 

[joe370]

Umm, hate to say it but that is the issue I raised here. I think it’s an important one because IF this was a genuine miracle then God sometimes deceives people, which surely ought to be taken into account in Christian doctrine?

The children did not predict a deception; they predicted a miracle, and God delivered on that day. What you call deception, I call a miracle. To each their own…

 

[joe370]

Candide West;9683952]No worries.
If you consider this to be a genuine miracle the you essentially have two options here, either at least one appearance of the sun is some kind of illusion (which means you’ve got God deceiving people) or you have to throw out the law of non-contradiction (the one that says that something cannot both be and not be at the same time).

The former seems to contradict many Christian beliefs about God. The latter removes the basis for logic and our rational understanding of the universe.*

Nothing is impossible for the creator of creation in my humble opinion. After all, God created everything from nothing.

 

[atheistgirl]

Nothing is impossible for the creator of creation in my humble opinion. After all, God created everything from nothing.

I know you can’t answer this definitively, but I have to wonder why God chose not to make it a real event, in the sense that observatories, including the Vatican’s, would observe the sun dancing, spinning, and hurtling towards the earth, while at the same time, cancelling out the inevitable consequences of such an event.

These observatories would be able to independently confirm that the sun did behave as described, yet no effects were felt on the earth.

This would indeed have cosmologists scratching their heads, and whether people chose to believe it was a miracle or not, there could be no denying that the sun did something that defied all known laws of the universe.

Sarah x