Mass delusion or genuine miracle?

[joe370]

Hey Sarah…

atheistgirl;9691183]I know you can’t answer this definitively, but I have to wonder why God chose not to make it a real event, in the sense that observatories, including the Vatican’s, would observe the sun dancing, spinning, and hurtling towards the earth, while at the same time, cancelling out the inevitable consequences of such an event.

Well, in 1917 those folks asked for a miracle, and God delivered. I think it is that simple. I suppose we have to keep in mind that Jesus expects us to live by faith not sight, but occasionally He does nudge us along with miracles. For example, the apparitions of Mary to the 4 little girls in San Sebastian Garabandal changed my life, in spite of the fact that the catholic church has yet to approve of the them or deny them.

The following movie, made in 2009, does an excellent job at portraying the dancing of the sun. It is based on eyewitness accounts. It allows us to see what those folks saw, that is if you believe what they say. It’s a pretty cool movie even if you believe it to be a work of fiction.

youtube.com/watch?v=NaIp8iAccLs&feature=fvwrel

“Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. 7 For we live by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord. 9 So we make it our goal to please him, whether we are at home in the body or away from it. 10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad.”

 

[atheistgirl]

Hey Sarah…

Well, in 1917 those folks asked for a miracle, and God delivered.
youtube.com/watch?v=NaIp8iAccLs&feature=fvwrel

Thanks for the link. I skipped to near the end to see their depiction of the miracle.

It shows people running in panic. The reports I’ve read don’t really say much about an outbreak of panic, which is interesting.

We know people have died needlessly in crowds when a few people paniced triggering a stampeed.

If people really saw the sun hurtling towards the earth, or believed that’s what they were seeing, falling on their knees (as the reports I’ve read state) seems to me to be an odd respose, rather than running in panic!!!

Another thing that strikes me as odd, is there’s no records I’ve read that describe children screaming and running for their lives. It would be reasonable to assume within the 30000 to 70000 in attendance (a huge variance!) there would be a significant number of children.

I find it hard to believe these children would just go wow, the sun is hurtling towards us and we can feel things heating up like we’re going to get fried, instead of hysterically clinging to their parents or running scared for their lives.

I’ve not read any such accounts in the reports I’ve read, which I find interesting.

Sarah x

 

[joe370]

atheistgirl;9691440]Thanks for the link. I skipped to near the end to see their depiction of the miracle.

It shows people running in panic. The reports I’ve read don’t really say much about an outbreak of panic, which is interesting.

It seems reasonable to conclude that panic would ensue with the sun hurtling at the crowd.

We know people have died needlessly in crowds when a few people paniced triggering a stampeed.

No one was hurt that day in 1917.

If people really saw the sun hurtling towards the earth, or believed that’s what they were seeing, falling on their knees (as the reports I’ve read state) seems to me to be an odd respose, rather than running in panic!!!

Not sure how I would respond if I had witnessed something so prodigious.

Another thing that strikes me as odd, is there’s no records I’ve read that describe children screaming and running for their lives. It would be reasonable to assume within the 30000 to 70000 in attendance (a huge variance!) there would be a significant number of children.

I don’t recall seeing children running for their lives when the sun was making its descent.

Why would there have to be a significant number there?

I

find it hard to believe these children would just go wow, the sun is hurtling towards us and we can feel things heating up like we’re going to get fried, instead of hysterically clinging to their parents or running scared for their lives.

The three seers? Why would they say wow or even be scared? They knew it was from God and simply a miracle.

If you had been there and witnessed what was revealed in the movie, would you then believe or simply call it some sort of natural meteorological event predicted by three children?

I’ve not read any such accounts in the reports I’ve read, which I find interesting.

What about all of the eyewitness accounts that describe what you saw in the movie regarding the sun. You seem to be more focused on the crowds reaction then on the miracle of the sun, as described by eyewitnesses. That would have been something quite awesome to see in my opinion.

 

[Candide_West]

Regarding the first one: What did God gain?

No idea, others have suggested his motive might have been to convert people to Christianity. If so then the reports seem to indicate he was successful.

Regarding the second one: You mean the area of Fatima deceived people? That doesn’t make a lot of sense. You said God deceived… not the area… right?

I’m saying God deceived IF it was a genuine miracle. A place is just a place, not an active agent which could decide to deceive.

You cannot properly call deception to what happened in Fatima using those definitions.

Incorrect. That’s exactly what it was and matches precisely what is in those definitions. Here they are again with the dictionary bits stripped out.

1. Cause someone to believe something that is not true
2. Give a mistaken impression

For 1. If the sun wasn’t dancing and God caused people to believe that it was. Then he caused them to believe something that was not true.

For 2. He gave people the mistaken impression that the sun was dancing when it was not.

Some people were in that same area and did not see the miracle… and some of the ones that didn’t see it were believers.

I’m afraid that isn’t relevant, it just means he didn’t deceive everyone who was present. He still deceived a large proportion of them.

Using the same logic one could argue that God is constantly “deceiving” us by not showing Himself more obviously.

Nope, not giving information is not sufficient for deception. Again, look at the definitions, you have to CAUSE someone to believe something that is not true. So actively interfering with the laws of physics to give a false impression of astrological events is deception. Hiding from people who are looking for you is not.

The matter of the fact is that Supernatural and Natural are not the same thing so you cannot say that because something Supernatural is not Natural (which it isn’t by definition) it is a deceit.

That’s got nothing to do with it I’m afraid. Lets try breaking this down.

1. There is only one sun (supported by astrological observation)
2. Some people saw the sun dancing (observations from Fatima)
3. Other people saw the sun NOT dancing (observations from everywhere else)
4. The sun cannot have both been dancing and not dancing simultaneously (law of non-contradiction)
5. Therefore either either the sun was not dancing but appeared to be (an illusion) or the sun was dancing but appeared not to be (also an illusion).
6. Catholics claim that God was responsible for the miracle of the sun appearing to dance
7. If 6. is true then God created an illusion.

If you disagree with some part of this then please let me know which part.

 

[Candide_West]

Those folks asked for a miracle and God provided one.

Assuming you are correct then the miracle was an illusion of the sun dancing.

The children did not predict a deception; they predicted a miracle, and God delivered on that day. What you call deception, I call a miracle. To each their own…

Being a miracle and being a deception are not mutually exclusive. Once again, for the sake of discussion I’ve assumed that the miracle happened. IF this is the case THEN God deceived people.

So yeah sure, they children predicted a miracle, and God delivered a miracle. That miracle was the illusion of the sun dancing when it was not. So he deceived thousands of people at the same time.

Nothing is impossible for the creator of creation in my humble opinion. After all, God created everything from nothing.

Ok, just to be clear then. Do you believe that the sun was both dancing and NOT dancing at the same time?

If so, how do you manage to use your reason in everyday life?

 

[joe370]

Candide West;9692740]Assuming you are correct then the miracle was an illusion of the sun dancing.

No, an amazing miracle…

Being a miracle and being a deception are not mutually exclusive. Once again, for the sake of discussion I’ve assumed that the miracle happened. IF this is the case THEN God deceived people.

If you say so…

So yeah sure, they children predicted a miracle, and God delivered a miracle. That miracle was the illusion of the sun dancing when it was not. So he deceived thousands of people at the same time.

Exactly…So many people were converted because of the miracle…Pretty cool…

Ok, just to be clear then. Do you believe that the sun was both dancing and NOT dancing at the same time?

It was a miracle by God…I don’t pretend to know how God did it… Have a little faith friend…

If so, how do you manage to use your reason in everyday life?

One day at a time…

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Personally, I think that if God can manage to be a Trinity AND that His Son can be both fully God and fully human, then God could CERTAINLY manage to make a rather insignificant star in the solar system appear to both ‘move and not move’ on a given day for a given number of people.

I’m beginning to think the real miracle would be that people reading or studying the event would stop trying to limit God to their own conceptions of reality, miracles, ability etc and simply consider that after all God just MIGHT be capable of doing this particular miracle this particular way. . .

 

[joe370]

Personally, I think that if God can manage to be a Trinity AND that His Son can be both fully God and fully human, then God could CERTAINLY manage to make a rather insignificant star in the solar system appear to both ‘move and not move’ on a given day for a given number of people.

I’m beginning to think the real miracle would be that people reading or studying the event would stop trying to limit God to their own conceptions of reality, miracles, ability etc and simply consider that after all God just MIGHT be capable of doing this particular miracle this particular way. . .

 

[aragonjohn1]

Since the planetary motion, among othe things, were not affected; Also because this event was only alleged to be seen locally, when the sun is visible over about one half of the planet; Also, because geologic disturbances; Also no severe tidal events or flooding… Whatever is alleged to happen was delusional.

Why would there be those effects?

-As early as May 1917, Portuguese newspapers were reporting that a miracle was to happen on October 13. You can read the newspaper reports in English in “Documents on Fatima,” a large book that is filled with page after page of the original documents.

-From the photographs, which I also have, modern scholars estimate that 100,000 people traveled to the Cova da Iria, a grazing field for cattle. Among the throngs were agnostics and atheists who were rude and snide to others, fully expecting a riot to ensue from the disappointment. We know this from journalistic accounts and letters from the witnesses that have come to us. Let’s not write off the believers in their doubt, either: a priest was urging everyone to go home, telling the crowds that it was all a hoax! Also among the throngs were esteemed university professors, scientists, doctors, and politicos. Their letters and journals also survive to us. Finally, editors and journalists from Portugal’s largest newspapers made their way to the field that day. Their professional accounts provide the whole event with particular historical value. Why? Well, journalists can provide a careful, objective, and professional account with which we generally can have confidence. Moreover, these particular journalists were avowed anti-theists and skeptics, and you can be sure that they would have seized on any opportunity to embarrass the whole endeavor, but they didn’t. If you read how they reported on the events leading up to October 13, you will come away with their passionate polemic and mockery.

-It was raining quite heavily that day, which, um, dampened the spirits of many in the crowd. However, at the exact moment foretold, the rain ceased and the clouds immediately parted. We have this multiply attested by every first-hand account we have.

-What ensued next is what is called the Miracle of the Sun. The sun dulled in color and became like a silver disc that was soothing to the eye. It spun on its axis and wrenched itself from the sky in irregular movements before tumbling toward earth. The crowd yelled and screamed in horror for a moment before the miracle was over. All of this is multiply attested in every first-hand account we have. In particular, it is attested from every single one of those aforementioned journalists. It is also reported form witnesses very far away from the crowds (among, them, interestingly enough, an American on a business trip). Incidentally, the New York Times reported on the miracle but was buried beneath coverage on the Chicago and New York world series!

-Now, I think this is all very persuasive historical evidence for the miraculous. If you start from the premise that it was all impossible but then examine the evidence above to find an adequate natural explanation, you will not find any. In a previous post, I examined and debunked all possible natural explanations.

-Remember, the miracle was predicted months prior and with an exact accuracy by three very young children who claimed to see the Virgin Mary. The rains ceased and the clouds parted at the exact moment and the miracle happened. If you truly stop and ponder this, it is incredible.

Shalom
God bless

 

[aragonjohn1]

Since the planetary motion, among othe things, were not affected; Also because this event was only alleged to be seen locally, when the sun is visible over about one half of the planet; Also, because geologic disturbances; Also no severe tidal events or flooding… Whatever is alleged to happen was delusional.

I also have a possible theory thatthe actual sun did not really move from the sky. If that would happen all the planets in our solar system would go out of orbit resulting in a massive cataclsym. If you study the reports you will see that the desciptions imply that there was some kind of spinning disk in the sky which was brightly flaring and changing colors while the real sun was hidden behind clouds. So yes the people at Fatima did experience something spectacular a vison of sorts which no human could reproduce at the time and although it was not the actual sun they were witnessing, I think it is still a wonderous sign from God just the same.

Shalom
God bless

 

[joe370]

I also have a possible theory thatthe actual sun did not really move from the sky. If that would happen all the planets in our solar system would go out of orbit resulting in a massive cataclsym. If you study the reports you will see that the desciptions imply that there was some kind of spinning disk in the sky which was brightly flaring and changing colors while the real sun was hidden behind clouds. So yes the people at Fatima did experience something spectacular a vison of sorts which no human could reproduce at the time and although it was not the actual sun they were witnessing, I think it is still a wonderous sign from God just the same.

Shalom
God bless

Seems reasonable…How God did it, I suppose we will never know…What an awesome miracle on the part of God in spite of the fact that we will never know with certainty…

 

[Candide_West]

No, an amazing miracle…

Righto, an amazing, miraculous illusion. No worries.

If you say so…

Ok, so you’ve understood then?

Exactly…So many people were converted because of the miracle…Pretty cool…

If you think God deceiving people is pretty cool then fair enough. But how do you marry this belief with the rest of Christian doctrine?

It was a miracle by God…I don’t pretend to know how God did it… Have a little faith friend…

I didn’t ask how he did it. That would be silly. I asked what you believe and you didn’t answer the question. Lets try again. Do you believe that the sun was both dancing and NOT dancing at the same time?

 

[Candide_West]

Personally, I think that if God can manage to be a Trinity AND that His Son can be both fully God and fully human, then God could CERTAINLY manage to make a rather insignificant star in the solar system appear to both ‘move and not move’ on a given day for a given number of people.

I’m beginning to think the real miracle would be that people reading or studying the event would stop trying to limit God to their own conceptions of reality, miracles, ability etc and simply consider that after all God just MIGHT be capable of doing this particular miracle this particular way. . .

Yes, if the Christian God exists then he can certainly make a star appear to be moving and appear to be not moving at the same time. But unless you forget about the law of non-contradiction (and thus throw all reason and logic in the bin) both things cannot be happening at the same time. Thus the only way the appearance could be created is if at least one appearance of the sun was an illusion.

Let me know if you can see an alternative.

 

[flyinghouse]

What makes you think that nobody else here BUT YOU lives in ‘reality’, rejects euphemisms, can reason and spot ‘fakes’, and wil not be caught up in mob hysteria?

Those poor people. They didn’t have YOU there to admonish them that all they were seeing was a ‘natural event’.

lol This pretty much sums it up.

But, but, those thousands of atheists there weren’t REAL atheists like ME! They’re not special like I am!

 

[atheistgirl]

lol This pretty much sums it up.

But, but, those thousands of atheists there weren’t REAL atheists like ME! They’re not special like I am!

Thank you for recognizing it

Yes.

I am special :curtsey:

Sarah x

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Yes, if the Christian God exists then he can certainly make a star appear to be moving and appear to be not moving at the same time. But unless you forget about the law of non-contradiction (and thus throw all reason and logic in the bin) both things cannot be happening at the same time. Thus the only way the appearance could be created is if at least one appearance of the sun was an illusion.

Let me know if you can see an alternative.

I already addressed this. We are ‘temporal’ beings who exist in certain temporal dimensions. But certainly further dimensions are possible.

Look at a point. It’s a one dimensional concept. It couldn’t even begin to imagine (were it sentient) a two dimensional line. And the line couldn’t imagine a cube. But the CUBE could imagine a point or line. To the cube, those things (point and line) would make perfect sense–for their dimension–but would lack the ‘completeness’ of the cube’s third dimension.

God doesn’t exist ‘in’ time. He created it. We’re only aware of what we can see, and to an extent what we can postulate; He of course knows all of it and beyond.

So why couldn’t God’s actions in revealing to people a further spatial dimension cause exactly what we have reported? People seeing something that was beyond what they knew trying to fit it into a concept of what they knew? If you existed in a two dimensional world, how would YOU describe a cube if you happened to miraculously be able to look ‘into’ a three dimensional world while remaining in your two dimensional one?

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Thank you for recognizing it

Yes.

I am special :curtsey:

Sarah x

LOL. Actually, you are. The more posts of yours I read, the more I like you. I don’t agree with you too often but you know what? That’s OK. You’re respectful and you’re interested in people, not in just throwing arguments back and forth. I am GLAD you’ve come to these forums!

 

[kompaz]

-What ensued next is what is called the Miracle of the Sun. The sun dulled in color and became like a silver disc that was soothing to the eye. It spun on its axis and wrenched itself from the sky in irregular movements before tumbling toward earth.

And here you are overinterpreting the eyewitness testimony.

The Sun did NOT move, because people elsewhere on Earth did not notice this. The eyewitnesses saw something which they perceived as the Sun moving. What exactly the saw is unclear. In other words, I grant that the miracle happened, but it’s impossible to maintain that the miracle actually involved moving Sun with respect to Earth.

The critical part of the evidence is that the event was localized. The logical conclusion is that something appeared in the line between the observers and the Sun, distorting their view, and that something was actually pretty close to the observers (kilometers). It’s actually pretty easy to calculate from parallax; one just needs to know how far away from the central point the event was observed, which I believe is documented.

The nature, origin and purpose of that something is the real mystery here.

Catholics have their interpretation of all that happened (God-did-it!), but it’s just that: their interpretation. It may be objectively true, but does not have to.

The atheists’ take at Fatima, though, is a complete failure. Instead of trying to find out what actually happened, they are desperately trying to prove that the event didn’t take place at all. Good luck with that. Because if there’s one thing I can say about that whole thing is for sure is that – something happened. Who (or what) did it, why, and how, we don’t really know.

 

[kompaz]

If you existed in a two dimensional world, how would YOU describe a cube if you happened to miraculously be able to look ‘into’ a three dimensional world while remaining in your two dimensional one?

The same way, I (living in a 3D world) can describe a tesseract (a 4D cube). I can draw a projection or write down the equations. And math students actually learn how to visualize spaces which have more than 3 dimensions.

Fatima is an embarassment to atheists not because they cannot explain it, but because they are refusing to investigate it – wrongly claiming that it didn’t happen.

 

[atheistgirl]

The atheists’ take at Fatima, though, is a complete failure. Instead of trying to find out what actually happened, they are desperately trying to prove that the event didn’t take place at all. Good luck with that. Because if there’s one thing I can say about that whole thing is for sure is that – something happened. Who (or what) did it, why, and how, we don’t really know.

Fatima is an embarassment to atheists not because they cannot explain it, but because they are refusing to investigate it – wrongly claiming that it didn’t happen.

You obviously read different sites and papers to me.

I’ve not read one report from an atheist or skeptic that says nothing happened.

They all acknowledge something happened.

Something that has a natural explanation.

In fact, on just about everything I’ve read from non religious sources, they open with saying there’s just no way to deny the shared experience of some 30000 (or 70000 or 100000 depending on your source) people on that day.

Just whatever it was, it had a natural, not a supernatural, origin.

Sarah x