Mass. Lawmakers OK Mandatory Health Bill

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Isidore_AK:
Although it looks like I did violate the portion referring to abbreviating terms. I should have said “Communist Liberal”. Would you prefer I use Socialist liberal instead…?
You can use either of them, it still won’t be correct. There is a world of difference between each of liberalism, socialism, and communism. It’s not the case that every ideology you oppose is the same thing, any more than every religion that isn’t Catholicism is Buddhism.

Mike
 
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MikeWM:
You can use either of them, it still won’t be correct. There is a world of difference between each of liberalism, socialism, and communism. It’s not the case that every ideology you oppose is the same thing, any more than every religion that isn’t Catholicism is Buddhism.

Mike
Mike,
A lot of people don’t know the difference. At least between liberalism and socialism… and many socialism and communism.

BTW: I think a better analogy would be between Catholicism and Evangelicalism.
 
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gilliam:
Mike,
A lot of people don’t know the difference. At least between liberalism and socialism… and many socialism and communism.
:hmmm: Maybe there is not a hairs difference between them 😉
 
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gilliam:
Mike,
A lot of people don’t know the difference. At least between liberalism and socialism… and many socialism and communism.

BTW: I think a better analogy would be between Catholicism and Evangelicalism.
Well isn’t that convenient. Someone takes a liberal economic or social justice opinion then they can be socialist (because there’s really no difference according to some) and condemned because the Church condemns socialism in the Catechism.

And we wonder why this country is nearly as divided as it was before the start of the Civil War (aka the War of Northern Agression for those in the South 😉 ).
 
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LCMS_No_More:
Well isn’t that convenient. Someone takes a liberal economic or social justice opinion then they can be socialist (because there’s really no difference according to some) and condemned because the Church condemns socialism in the Catechism.
I don’t think it is condemnation. I think it is a problem of lack of edification. And I think a lot of people come here to be edified.
And we wonder why this country is nearly as divided as it was before the start of the Civil War (aka the War of Northern Agression for those in the South ).
IMHO, as a bit of a history buff, it isn’t that divided. The difference between Democrat and Republican today is a lot less than it was in 1850. Which might account for some our problems with people feeling alienated with the political process.
 
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MikeWM:
You can use either of them, it still won’t be correct. There is a world of difference between each of liberalism, socialism, and communism. It’s not the case that every ideology you oppose is the same thing, any more than every religion that isn’t Catholicism is Buddhism.

Mike
I was not saying that Liberalism = Communism.

Communism is a form of Socialism…

The healthcare plan (and the entire aim of the Liberals in this country) is Socialist in nature. As the plan reminded me of a socialist totalitarian plan, I labeled it Communism. Hence, Commie Liberals…as opposed to other forms of Liberals.
 
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gilliam:
I don’t think it is condemnation. I think it is a problem of lack of edification. And I think a lot of people come here to be edified.
I’m sure you do. I think people come to this particular section to discuss issues. I know I do. I feel alienated when some my views are called things that they are decidedly not.

Let’s bear in mind that the Church refuses to accept individualism in the pursuit of capitalism just as she condemns socialism and communism. There’s little denying that Republican ideology is certainly closer to individualistic capitalism than Democrat ideology is to socialism/communism.
 
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Isidore_AK:
And in the end, the state has absolutely no business telling me what to do in any case. I would refuse to comply with such a law if it were enforced on a national level
The state requires us to buy auto insurance, and wear seatbelts and motorcycle helmets. The reason is that people in accidents need major health care and often can’t afford it, which dumps the bill on the rest of us taxpayers. Not fair.
A car accident that disabled you would make it impossible for you to continue to earn the money to pay your bills.
Usually it doesn’t happen. But it happens enough that all of us need to have insurance.
Until something better comes along, which is bound to happen before we spend 85% of the GNP on medical bills.
 
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LCMS_No_More:
I’m sure you do. I think people come to this particular section to discuss issues. I know I do. I feel alienated when some my views are called things that they are decidedly not.

Let’s bear in mind that the Church refuses to accept individualism in the pursuit of capitalism just as she condemns socialism and communism. There’s little denying that Republican ideology is certainly closer to individualistic capitalism than Democrat ideology is to socialism/communism.
I would deny it…I think they are about equidistant. However, it depends on what end of the spectrum of both ideologies you are looking at.
 
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Isidore_AK:
I was not saying that Liberalism = Communism.

Communism is a form of Socialism…

The healthcare plan (and the entire aim of the Liberals in this country) is Socialist in nature. As the plan reminded me of a socialist totalitarian plan, I labeled it Communism. Hence, Commie Liberals…as opposed to other forms of Liberals.
Please explain how it is State owned and operated (socialist - defined as: Any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy). After reading the article, I saw nothing about a state owned and operated plan. What I saw is a requirement to have health insurance, a minor fee that employers must pay ($295 is nothing) and a subsidy for those in poverty. Nothing about the state owning the hospitals and clinics and employing the doctors.

Also, this thing about “entire aim of the Liberals in this country” seems to be violating this rule:
It is never acceptable to question the sincerity of an individual’s beliefs
It is never acceptable to assume or say you know what another person thinks or needs.
I don’t see anything about it being specific to a poster here on the board, but a general rule. By saying that the “entire aim of the Liberals in this country is socialism” is not only untrue and uncharitable, it is also an assumption that you know what another person thinks and a questioning of the sincerity of their beliefs.
 
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rlg94086:
I would deny it…I think they are about equidistant. However, it depends on what end of the spectrum of both ideologies you are looking at.
You’re going to tell me that when you have mainstream Republicans talk show hosts (Like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity) talking about “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” and “rugged individualism” that mainstream Democrat talk show hosts (like Ed Schulz and Randy Rhodes) talk about regulation so captialism can work for everyone that Republicans are just as far from “individualistic capitalism” as Democrats are from communism/socialism?

Funny measuring stick you use. Maybe it’s a mobeius strip? 😉
 
Yes, I’m telling you that…if you take out the “communism” and just leave the “socialism”. Democrats like the two you mentioned don’t just talk about regulation of capitalism - they want national health care, more welfare, etc. (Rhodes more than Schulz). That’s socialism. Rush Limbaugh and Michael Medved are okay with some regulation (I don’t listen to Sean Hannity) My measuring stick is fine - metric and english standard. 🙂
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LCMS_No_More:
You’re going to tell me that when you have mainstream Republicans talk show hosts (Like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity) talking about “pull yourself up by your bootstraps” and “rugged individualism” that mainstream Democrat talk show hosts (like Ed Schulz and Randy Rhodes) talk about regulation so captialism can work for everyone that Republicans are just as far from “individualistic capitalism” as Democrats are from communism/socialism?

Funny measuring stick you use. Maybe it’s a mobeius strip? 😉
 
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rlg94086:
Yes, I’m telling you that…if you take out the “communism” and just leave the “socialism”. Democrats like the two you mentioned don’t just talk about regulation of capitalism - they want national health care, more welfare, etc. (Rhodes more than Schulz). That’s socialism.
No it isn’t. Socialism is “any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.”

Now, if we’re talking about the government taking over all hospitals and clinics and hiring them on as civil servants, then you’d be right. I don’t think anyone is talking about that…well some may be but they’re not being taken seriously.

And granted, Rhodes is a bit more to the left than Schulz (who is moderate-left).
Rush Limbaugh and Michael Medved are okay with some regulation (I don’t listen to Sean Hannity) My measuring stick is fine - metric and english standard. 🙂
Unless Rush has moderated since his little pill popping issues came out (that’s when I stopped listening to him), he calls almost every Federal agency that deals with worker rights and consumer safety unnecessary and a burden on business. That doesn’t sound like he’s okay with some regulation but would be glad to have OSHA, DOL, CPSC, DHHS, FDA and the like eliminated and their regulations revoked.

Medved, I don’t know about.
 
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Viki59:
The state requires us to buy auto insurance, and wear seatbelts and motorcycle helmets. The reason is that people in accidents need major health care and often can’t afford it, which dumps the bill on the rest of us taxpayers. Not fair.
A car accident that disabled you would make it impossible for you to continue to earn the money to pay your bills.
Usually it doesn’t happen. But it happens enough that all of us need to have insurance.
Until something better comes along, which is bound to happen before we spend 85% of the GNP on medical bills.
Driving a car is a privilege, therefore the state can require all of the things you mention. Living is a right, so I guess you have 3 choices if you live there. Buy the overpriced insurance, move away, or die. Not very welcoming to the average everyday person.

It seems to me that this is
A. an unfunded mandate
B. a taxation on being alive
C. a way to move middle class and poorer people out of the state to create a state with nothing but wealthy people.

I doubt the law will stand up in court.
 
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LCMS_No_More:
Unless Rush has moderated since his little pill popping issues came out (that’s when I stopped listening to him), he calls almost every Federal agency that deals with worker rights and consumer safety unnecessary and a burden on business. That doesn’t sound like he’s okay with some regulation but would be glad to have OSHA, DOL, CPSC, DHHS, FDA and the like eliminated and their regulations revoked.

Medved, I don’t know about.
Actually most if not all of the Federal agencies in existance today except for the military and maybe the IRS are unconstitutional.

It’s called the 10th amendment.
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
I have yet to find any record of any vote that took place that authorized the federal government to have many of federal agencies that exist today, but then again I can’t find where it’s prohibited either so it must be ok.
 
Medved is the conservative version of Schulz…only smarter (which is why he’s conservative 😉 ). Both of them went from one side of the aisle to the other. I don’t listen to Schulz much because he’s on at the same time, and Medved has more discussions/debates with people who disagree with him.

I consider Rhodes to be a liberal version of Micheal Savage - I find both of them repugnant. I listen to her on my drive home, but I shouldn’t as it raises my blood pressure.

I’m not going to get into an argument about which party is closer to which ideology, etcetra, because it’s subjective and just plain silly.

Just as most Democrats are not for government taking over all hospitals, etc.; most Republicans don’t believe in taking away all regulation. Therefore I see both as equally representative of the extremes.

Rush Limbaugh (whom I rarely listen to anymore due to the time he is on) and the others are radio personalities. Their personal views don’t necessarily reflect the majority of their party.
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LCMS_No_More:
No it isn’t. Socialism is “any of various theories or systems of social organization in which the means of producing and distributing goods is owned collectively or by a centralized government that often plans and controls the economy.”

Now, if we’re talking about the government taking over all hospitals and clinics and hiring them on as civil servants, then you’d be right. I don’t think anyone is talking about that…well some may be but they’re not being taken seriously.

And granted, Rhodes is a bit more to the left than Schulz (who is moderate-left).

Unless Rush has moderated since his little pill popping issues came out (that’s when I stopped listening to him), he calls almost every Federal agency that deals with worker rights and consumer safety unnecessary and a burden on business. That doesn’t sound like he’s okay with some regulation but would be glad to have OSHA, DOL, CPSC, DHHS, FDA and the like eliminated and their regulations revoked.

Medved, I don’t know about.
 
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LCMS_No_More:
I don’t see anything about it being specific to a poster here on the board, but a general rule. By saying that the “entire aim of the Liberals in this country is socialism” is not only untrue and uncharitable, it is also an assumption that you know what another person thinks and a questioning of the sincerity of their beliefs.
It’s no more true to say that liberals, who want government to do more in some certain areas, want the government to do everything in a totalitarian way, than it is to say that conservatives, who want smaller government, actually want government abolished altogether and a kind of feudal anarchy to develop. If I said the latter I would be both wrong and, rightly, corrected by many here. So we shouldn’t have the same kind of blanket statement about ‘liberals’ that we see here.

Mike
 
I find it a farce to say that all have to buy insurance “if it is deemed that they are able”! who is to make that decision?

I don’t make alot of money. In the past ten years my insurance costs have gone up about 1,000%. I now pay $400.00 more per month for health insurance than I do for the mortgage on my home, and they just raised my rates by 15% so soon it will be even more!

I have the worst health insurance possible. HMO that covers almost nothing, has very high deductibles and co-pays.

My wife and I are prayerfully trying to decide if we should drop our insurance altogether and join the un-insured.

If we use our dental plan at the dentist, our co-pay is $98. If we pay cash and forget to use the insurance, we pay $65. It is getting to the same point with the health insurance.

I make enough so that “they” would probably “deem me able” and would be forced into the poor house by this “wonderful” bill!
 
Actually, I think the opposite course of action makes more sense.

All of america should drop thier health insurance, tell the insurance companies where to go, and when going to the hospital or to the doctors, simply all of America tell them the following:

“Here we are. This is what we have and what we are willing to pay. You can either accept it and do business or demand what we haven’t got and go out of business for lack of customers!”

Once they lose thier source of income, they will come to thier senses and be forced to make thier services affordable, or they can sell thier houses and cars for lack of money.

Granted, it will take a very large portion of America acting in unision to make this work. But, look what the solidarity movement acconplished in Poland. The politics are different but the methods
the same.

I say lets make it happen!
 
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rciadan:
Actually, I think the opposite course of action makes more sense.

All of america should drop thier health insurance, tell the insurance companies where to go, and when going to the hospital or to the doctors, simply all of America tell them the following:

“Here we are. This is what we have and what we are willing to pay. You can either accept it and do business or demand what we haven’t got and go out of business for lack of customers!”

Once they lose thier source of income, they will come to thier senses and be forced to make thier services affordable, or they can sell thier houses and cars for lack of money.

Granted, it will take a very large portion of America acting in unision to make this work. But, look what the solidarity movement acconplished in Poland. The politics are different but the methods
the same.

I say lets make it happen!
I love this idea!

For those who have no problem with the state forcing people to buy insurance I have a question: Where does it stop? What’s next, telling the poplulace they must follow a certain kind of diet in order to keep health costs down or they have to pay a fine?

From where I sit, this law is a moral abomination, unconstititutional and another step down the road toward the totalitarian state.
 
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