Masses celebrated properly

[laszlo]

Pope John XXIII wouldn’t have tolerated it. As he wrote just a few months before and in preparation for the council,

Practically what is your advise for the case of Babel: people has the same language as official language, but they do not understand each other?

Accepting the four official language they had to employ synchronous translators. They found such translators from and to spoken languages, but not for Latin.

The reality is the reality is the reality. Jesus gave us the hierarchy to help accommodate things.

 

[Judge_Mental]

If you want a Mass said solemnly, without much local variation, in a language that helps prevent the priest getting creative and without lay people in ordinary clothes in the sanctuary, go to a Latin Mass.

It’s part of your heritage. Enjoy it. Support it. It is great. You might even one day enjoy the privilege of a regular Sung, Sunday Latin Mass, with organ accompaniment.

 

[Contra_Mundum_1]

I wonder how many Catholics realise that the first time tables were introduced with the celebrant facing the people was back in the time of Henry VIII by the heretic Bishop Cranmer and this became the norm for Anglicanism which under Cranmer adopted the false doctrine of the Priesthood of all believers championed by Luther.

Things like this really make my blood boil. I simply can’t stand how protestant we have become, and how people are completely fine with it.

 

[JReducation]

A long string of Italian Popes probably made it that way.

Or was it the other way around?

I understand that most of the last papal election was conducted in Italian but one figures most Cardinals have to know some Italian to come and go in Italy, unlike the United Nations where everyone walks around with an interpreter.

Actually, Italian became the official language in the 20th century. The reason is because it is the dominant language. Let’s face it, if you work at the Vatican you either live in Vatican City or in Rome, but a few blocks away. You’re using Italian all day.

When you have a large gathering, be it of bishops, such as a synod or general chapter of religious, the chair will use Italian, but those who attend wear headsets for simulataneous translations. They can can speak in their own language or in Italian. Of course, anyone who can and wishes to do so may also speak in Latin.

The idea is to express the universaity of the Church by showing the proper respect for all of the Churches. Many of the international order that have religious from 30 or 50 countries will run their chapter in Italian, but their committes are broken down by language groups. When they are all together, they use the headsets. After the Oriental Catholics brought it to our attention that they felt as guests in their own Church, those of us who have had the opportunity to study or work at the Vatican or the Pontifical Universities in Rome simply dropped the Latin in daily use and adopted Italian for work purposes. You still read the ancient documents in their original language. You simply don’t talk in Latin. If you’re very good at it, you have to be patient, because if you go to quickly, people like me will get lost. I can understand spoken Latin when its spoken slowly

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[LCMS_No_More]

I agree that there are many abuses but there are a couple of aspects of the OF which are problematic in and of themselves. The replacement of the altar with a table with the priest standing behind the table facing the people, and the concurrent removal of the tabernacle in many churches from the center of the altar and placement off to the side, or even taken out of the sanctuary completely. These changes have replaced the focus of the priest + people all facing the same way toward Jesus in the tabernacle, with a community gathered around a table with Jesus symbolically off to the side out of the picture, so that the focus is now on the priest and we now form a closed circle. In other words it becomes more about us and less about God.

It is no wonder that this change coincided with a loss of reverence as seen at many OF masses, people no longer stay to pray after mass but gather in loud conversation as soon as the recessional hymn ends, many no longer genuflect, etc.

I didn’t know that the OF required any of this.

AFAIK, the OF can be said at a traditional altar ad orientem. In fact, I was once at a regularly scheduled EF where the priest couldn’t make it, so the local priests offered the OF mostly in latin and ad orientem. It was fine, but unfortunately a lot of people walked out (and with no additional opportunity to go to a traditional mass, probably committed mortal sin by intentionally missing mass on a Sunday, but I don’t know for certain). Those who stayed and received communion did so at the rail, kneeling and on the tongue.

 

[ProVobis]

Things like this really make my blood boil. I simply can’t stand** how protestant we have become**, and how people are completely fine with it.

Even more so when you consider we’ve accepted a lot of the Cranmer translations in our English liturgy like it’s the gospel truth.

 

[ProVobis]

When you have a large gathering, be it of bishops, such as a synod or general chapter of religious, the chair will use Italian, but those who attend wear headsets for simulataneous translations.

I always wondered about who does the actual translations on those headsets. I hope it’s not the ICEL or Google.

 

[JReducation]

I always wondered about who does the actual translations on those headsets. I hope it’s not the ICEL or Google.

 

[corsair]

I agree 100% with you Contra Mundum. And then this argument that you have to learn Italian. So why noy just learn LATIN. Good grief. This argument is just like a wheel; it just goes round and round and round.

There; thats my opinion.

 

[ProVobis]

I agree 100% with you Contra Mundum. And then this argument that you have to learn Italian. So why noy just learn LATIN.

Makes too much sense. Especially when Latin is the basis for the ROMANce languages, such as Italian, French, Spanish, etc.

 

[JReducation]

I agree 100% with you Contra Mundum. And then this argument that you have to learn Italian. So why noy just learn LATIN. Good grief. This argument is just like a wheel; it just goes round and round and round.

There; thats my opinion.

Makes too much sense. Especially when Latin is the basis for the ROMANce languages, such as Italian, French, Spanish, etc.

But you have to think as the Oriental Catholics think. Italian is not the language of any of the Catholic Churches. It is the language of the Vatican.

Latin, on the other hand, is the language of the Latin Church. It offends them that the universal Church should do business in the language of one Church, why not in one of the other Catholic languages? This is a legitimate question.

It makes much better sense to go with the national language, than the language of any sui iuris Church. Once upon a time, when Latin was the language of the Empire, it was not offensive to the Byzantines to learn it. Today, that’s not the case. Latin is the language of the Roman Catholics. An Oriental Catholic would rather be shot a dawn than be confused with a Roman Catholic. (Just my way of stressing how important this is to our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters). Remember, they have much more afinity withe the Orthodox Christians than they do with the Roman Catholics. What unites us to each other is the Pontiff. As far as culture, language, liturgical rites, apostolic origins, history, and national heritage, they have much more in common with the Orthodox Christians. For example, there are 22 Oriental Catholic Churches and four rites. These same Churches have Orthodox counterparts, because they share the same rites withe Orthodox and not with the Roman Catholics.

It is not in the best interest of the Catholic Church to push the Latin on the Oriental Catholics. It is much more prudent to use the national language of Vatican City, since the Pontiff is the visible sign of unity between us. The official language of the Pontiff is always Italian.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ProVobis]

It makes much better sense to go with the national language, than the language of any sui iuris Church. Once upon a time, when Latin was the language of the Empire, it was not offensive to the Byzantines to learn it.

Yes, but I’m sure there were a few Greeks who didn’t particularly care for their Roman conquerors or turning over their philosphy, science, math, etc. to them either. In fact we still use Greek symbols to represent mathematical and physical truths (alpha, beta, gamma rays, for example.) And most scientists and mathematics stilll use them and wouldn’t dare suggest an alternative. On the other hand, Latin is used as the legal basis of most Western countries, anatomy, and of course, the Latin Rite liturgy. There are things that transcend national borders. And as far as I know no one has suggested we rename all our body parts and animal species, although we may have a vernacular which we know them better by. An Italian may not know what an arm is but he would know what a bracchium is, especially if he graduated with a biology degree from the University of Rome. And let’s not forget the fact that the Latin alphabet is used by more than half the world, making a lot of other languages, especially in the West, that much easier to learn. While we respect our national and secular world, we do need a universal language (or a limited number of them) to unite us in the Church. Though many Popes and Cardinals and priests are muti-lingual, I don’t know anyone (outside of malphono perhaps ) who knows all 7000 languages in the world. Ok, the U.S. Post Office too.

 

[JReducation]

Yes, but I’m sure there were a few Greeks who didn’t particularly care for their Roman conquerors or turning over their philosphy, science, math, etc. to them either. In fact we still use Greek symbols to represent mathematical and physical truths (alpha, beta, gamma rays, for example.) And most scientists and mathematics stilll use them and wouldn’t dare suggest an alternative. On the other hand, Latin is used as the legal basis of most Western countries, anatomy, and of course, the Latin Rite liturgy. There are things that transcend national borders. And as far as I know no one has suggested we rename all our body parts and animal species, although we may have a vernacular which we know them better by. An Italian may not know what an arm is but he would know what a bracchium is, especially if he graduated with a biology degree from the University of Rome. And let’s not forget the fact that the Latin alphabet is used by more than half the world, making a lot of other languages, especially in the West, that much easier to learn. While we respect our national and secular world, we do need a universal language (or a limited number of them) to unite us in the Church. Though many Popes and Cardinals and priests are muti-lingual, I don’t know anyone (outside of malphono perhaps ) who knows all 7000 languages in the world. Ok, the U.S. Post Office too.

I understand what you’re saying, but it’s not something that I would even discuss with the Oriental Catholics. The Oriental Catholics are not going to bend on this one. My suggestion to anyone who brings this up is to drop it. We can use translators and keep the peace between the 23 Churches. So far, we’re doing fine.

The difference between the examples that you’re offering and the Catholic Church is a matter of ownership. No one denies that certain words, sciences and disciplines have their origins in specific cultures and language groups. But Catholicism has a much broader base than anatomy or math. Catholicism has its roots in many Churches that were founded simultaneously and their daughter Churches. You can’t say to a Greek Catholic that Catholicism is Roman, because it’s not true. It’s as Roman as it is Greek, Syriac, and Chaldean, etc. Romans just happen to be the largest of the Catholic Churches.

I went to the Franciscan Chapter of Mats in 2009. There were 1400 delegates from 141 countries and four Churches. We used Italian and simultaneous translators. Everyone was happy. The Roman Catholic Friars were happy and the Eastern Catholic Friars were happy. In the past, there were always complaints about the Roman Catholics monopolizing Catholicism as if we owned it. The same concerns come up when the bishops, metropolitans and patriarchs gather. The year before that we had a regularly scheduled general chapter. It was in Budapest. The language of the chapter was Hungarian. You always use the language of the host nation. This way Catholicism is no one’s exclusive property.

It’s really not an inconvenience to the Catholic in the pew to have synods, general chapters, congresses and other official church gatherings in the language of the host nation with simultaneous translations. As I said before, the official language of Vatican City State is Italian. When you walk down the halls of their office buildings, everyone is speaking Italian or if there are two who are from the same country, they speak in their native language. For example, when you enter the papal apartment, it’s as if you crossed the border. Everyone on the staff speaks German, from the cook to the houseboy, before now, it was Polish. You only hear Latin in liturgy.

When I was Rome in 2009, they had a Latin chanel for those who did not speak: Italian, English, Spanish, German, Chinese, Greek, Portugues or Arabic.

The Vatican is getting very proficient at this too. I’ve noticed that every year they add more languages to the list of available chanels.

My philosophy is very simple.

When the bishops are upset with each other, then I get concerned.
As long as the bishops are happy, I’m happy.

When there is unhappiness, you’re not going to get much work done.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[hartleymartin]

Just a side note here (I didn’t intend this to be a language debate!)

I spent a couple of days at a monastery where one of the visiting priests was from Germany and spoke no English, and I only spoke a few fragments of German. During the mass, when making the sign of peace, we both reverted to Latin (V. Pax tecum, R. Et cum spiritu tuo), which was rather handy.

I also used my limited knowledge of German to show him that I knew how to ask for a big beer, to tell someone that I am a foreigner and to ask them if they speak English.

I firmly believe that in schools, one should learn a foreign language. I am only sad that I didn’t continue with French beyond 8th Grade. But at least I have picked up fragments of Italian, Polish, German, French, Spanish, Japanese and Vietnamese along the way. The European languages have been greatly supported with an elementary knowledge of Latin.

One way to encourage Latin into the Ordinary Form of the mass is to use Latin Hymns or sing parts of the mass in Latin.

Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi…
Sanctus, Sanctus, Santus Dominus Deus Sabaoth…

And I particularly love the Christmas Hymn:
Gaudete, Gaudete, Christus est Natus, ex Maria Virgine, Gaudete!

I would like to get a good translation of “Christ be Our Light” into Latin. I’d be prepared to sing it!

 

[ProVobis]

I would like to get a good translation of “Christ be Our Light” into Latin. I’d be prepared to sing it!

Just don’t let Monty Python or Google do the translation.

 

[Padraig1972]

Translation is an important factor, a TLM ministrant showed the difference between the pre 1962 and the new translation that are used today. So much is cut away and some of the translations are horrible or worse…it is not even a correct translation.

 

[JReducation]

My guess is that translating hymns must be quite a job. I have translated ecclesial documents, which don’t have metre or cadence and that is hard, because you have to preserve the meaning and make it flow. I can imagine the work that would go into translating something like “Christ Be My Light”. I really like that hymn too.

I say this about translations of hymns, because I’ve seen over 10 translations of the Canticle of the Creatures by St. Francis. The closest one is the Spanish translation. Even though it was originally written in Italian, many of the modern Italian translations sound clunky. Unfortunately, we don’t have the notes for it. Francis never wrote the music, even though he did give it a melody. No one thought about writing it. It has disappeared.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Padraig1972]

My last post migt sounded harsh…honestly…im a bit worried and confused, so my question is: does it make me a bad catholic to stick to the prayers i have learned at mass and using them in my prayers too, but at the same time - know to appreciate and enjoy the TLM mass and realize that they are to different kind of masses from each their time eras?

 

[ProVobis]

Translation is an important factor, a TLM ministrant showed the difference between the pre 1962 and the new translation that are used today. So much is cut away and some of the translations are horrible or worse…it is not even a correct translation.

But there must have been something wrong with those old TLM translations (I call them the Cranmer translations) if the ICEL chose not to use them in the English liturgies. This itself is interesting since some of the Anglican and Lutheran liturgies now use the same ICEL translations today yet we’re retranslating again.

However the EF (or the Latin OF for that matter) will be the same regardless of the translation used in the handmissals. There are no translations in the 1962 altar missals.

 

[CB_Catholic]

My last post migt sounded harsh…honestly…im a bit worried and confused, so my question is: does it make me a bad catholic to stick to the prayers i have learned at mass and using them in my prayers too, but at the same time - know to appreciate and enjoy the TLM mass and realize that they are to different kind of masses from each their time eras?

I get upset when some of the discussions in this forum between those who favor the EF and those who favor the OF lead to the type of question above from someone who is fairly new to the faith, or returning. It cannot be denied that some of the discussions here can lead to the impression that one might not be as “Catholic” as the other. There have been many complaints about this expressed on these forums. We need to pay attention to this, and not try to deny that it happens. It is very bad example. Many people do not realize the impression they may be giving and how it can affect other’s perceptions, esp. those new to the faith, or returning, or considering Catholicism–many of whom are not forum members and are just visitors.

To Padrig–you are not a “bad” Catholic if you stick to the prayers you have learned, prayers that are dear to you and in which you express your love of God. You are not a “bad” Catholic if you prefer the OF over the EF or the EF over the OF. One form is not more “Catholic” than the other, despite the impression you may be getting. The Church has given us the Liturgy and both forms are equally valid. What is expressed here is opinions, you are not bound by the opinions of people on a message board. You are bound by what the Church teaches. People have their reasons for preferring one form over the other, but that is their own personal decision, and there should be no attempt to try to impose it on others. They can express their opinions, but you are not obliged to agree with them. Listen to the Church and it’s Magesterium, and do the will of God in your life. God knows your heart, we don’t. How you pray is between you and Our Lord.