Masterbation as an Alternative to Normal Sex

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No, these things are apples and oranges. The Catechism explains the difference between self defense vs murder and sex within marriage vs sex outside of marriage. Masterbation is considered a grave sin per the Catechism…and if I am supposed to take the Catechism literally (and what I hear on here constantly about grave sins), then there should be no exceptions to such a sin. The ends doesn’t justify the means, right?

Now, I am struggling with Church teaching on masterbation/sexual morality within marriage so I’m not necessarily saying that I take issue with what is being said here (re: allowing the woman to finish via masterbation). But to me that sounds like there are certain circumstances when masterbation is okay (granted, within marriage). It truly makes me wonder just how grave this sin is…or if it is a sin at all. It also doesn’t seem right to allow this exception for the woman and not the man. I can understand this thinking when way back semen was considered life itself…and therefore spilling it outside the womb was akin to murder/abortion…but not so much now in this day and age when we know that semen is not life itself.

PS. I have read the book…
Make no mistake, masturbation is most certainly a sin and it most certainly is a grave sin. With regard to pleasuring one another durring the marital embrase, well I might talk to a priest about how they understand this. But I would not take such a possible “gray area” and try extending that out to “well I guess masturbation is no big deal what so ever”. The Churches teaching is clear on the subject clear, and it’s teachings in the area of faith and morals is in fact infallible (though sure, our reading of the Catechism may or may not be…).
 
Quote from baylee

Now, I am struggling with Church teaching on masterbation/sexual morality within marriage so I’m not necessarily saying that I take issue with what is being said here (re: allowing the woman to finish via masterbation). But to me that sounds like there are certain circumstances when masterbation is okay (granted, within marriage). It truly makes me wonder just how grave this sin is…or if it is a sin at all. It also doesn’t seem right to allow this exception for the woman and not the man. I can understand this thinking when way back semen was considered life itself…and therefore spilling it outside the womb was akin to murder/abortion…but not so much now in this day and age when we know that semen is not life itself.

baylee,
It is the Church teaching that the man must climax in the woman because the semen has the possibility of giving life. Spilling it outside the womb is a can be a kind of birth control. Masturbation of the women (who has been unable to climax during foreplay or intercourse) would be okay since it would be within the completed act of intercourse. It would also be a loving self-giving act to the wife from her husband.

This book “The Good News About Sex and Marriage” has the nihil obstat and imprimatur which are official declarations that a book is free from doctrinal of moral error. However, it says that no implication is contained therein that those who grant the nihil obstat or imprimater agee with the contents, opinions, or statements expressed.

I don’t agree that the wife should be able to stimulate herself to climax since this would not be a giving act to her husband.
 
For me, this has been one of the most confusing positions of the Catholic Church. I understand the Church’s position is that sex is for the purpose of pro-creation between man and woman. I have always felt that there are at least three aspects of sex, physical, psychological, and spiritual and that the Church’s position does not always address all three. The joining of a man and woman in marriage can satisfy all three of these, but not necessarily. There is often great disparity in sexual drive between a man and women; being driven in large part by the level of hormones in both which can vary widely. The Church’s position offers no way of reconciling this disparity. Using the Church’s logic, if either the man or woman could not pro-create (sterility for instance), there would be no need for sex.

**It does. But what you are describing is more mentally problematic. **

I think this ignores the physical and psychological needs of sex for both men and women. It can also lead to problems within marriage with no solution for resolution other than abstinence and ignoring of physical and psychological needs.

Have both you and your wife ever go for marriage counseling?

The church’s position provides no solution for men or women whose partner develops some kind of problem which prohibits normal sexual function, be it physical, psychological, etc. From my reading from medical sources, many men develop prostate problems because of the buildup of testosterone which can be due to the reduced frequency or abstinence of sex. Ejaculation is the only way for excess testosterone to be reduced in the prostrate (other than special medications). I have a friend who is taking these and they can produce enlarged breasts, higher pitched voice, and increased emotional response to events. From the sources I have read, regular ejaculation is beneficial to the prostrate and can help relieve problems from BHP.

Protrate problems are part of the normal aging process in males. What you are reading is bunk. It’s hit or miss. Some do not suffer from these age-related maladies.

My wife began entering menopause more than 20 years ago and coupled with her lack of physical exercise and weight gain has resulted in her sex drive dropping to a point where we have not had sex in over 12 years. As a result, I have also developed prostrate problems and now have to take medications. I have found many of my friends have gone through similar experiences, some of which have developed prostate cancer.

Like was asked before: have you and your wife considered marriage counseling? Your wife’s lack of self-esteem may also have a lot to do with your sexual relationship as husband and wife. And what might you be doing to hurt her self-esteem?

It seems to me the Church’s position fails to address problems when normal sex between a man and a woman cannot be consummated and provides no solutions for men and women who are, for what every reason not married.

I disagree.
 
Quote from baylee

Now, I am struggling with Church teaching on masterbation/sexual morality within marriage so I’m not necessarily saying that I take issue with what is being said here (re: allowing the woman to finish via masterbation). But to me that sounds like there are certain circumstances when masterbation is okay (granted, within marriage). It truly makes me wonder just how grave this sin is…or if it is a sin at all. It also doesn’t seem right to allow this exception for the woman and not the man. I can understand this thinking when way back semen was considered life itself…and therefore spilling it outside the womb was akin to murder/abortion…but not so much now in this day and age when we know that semen is not life itself.

baylee,
It is the Church teaching that the man must climax in the woman because the semen has the possibility of giving life. Spilling it outside the womb is a can be a kind of birth control. Masturbation of the women (who has been unable to climax during foreplay or intercourse) would be okay since it would be within the completed act of intercourse. It would also be a loving self-giving act to the wife from her husband.

This book “The Good News About Sex and Marriage” has the nihil obstat and imprimatur which are official declarations that a book is free from doctrinal of moral error. However, it says that no implication is contained therein that those who grant the nihil obstat or imprimater agee with the contents, opinions, or statements expressed.

I don’t agree that the wife should be able to stimulate herself to climax since this would not be a giving act to her husband.
So this is still masterbation within marriage…and it’s okay (which the longer I’m married and see how things “work”, I tend to agree). Apparently, it is no longer a grave sin…it’s now an act of love. Call it what you will, wrap it any way you want, it still contradicts Church teaching in the CCC. As a grave sin, masterbation is wrong all the time or it’s not. If it’s not wrong all the time, then Church teaching in the CCC needs to be clarified…but how does the Church clarify something they consider a grave sin sometimes?
 
Make no mistake, masturbation is most certainly a sin and it most certainly is a grave sin. With regard to pleasuring one another durring the marital embrase, well I might talk to a priest about how they understand this. But I would not take such a possible “gray area” and try extending that out to “well I guess masturbation is no big deal what so ever”. The Churches teaching is clear on the subject clear, and it’s teachings in the area of faith and morals is in fact infallible (though sure, our reading of the Catechism may or may not be…).
I beg to differ.
 
I believe I mis-spoke then, I apologize.

What is the definition of masturbation? A person stimulating themselves for pleasure.

What the book and I was talking about was the husband stimulating the wife either before or after the marital embrace.

These are apples and oranges. I suggest you read pages 90 and 91 of the Good News about Sex and Marriage (although the entire book is great).

I hope this helps clear it up.
This is half of what we call “mutual masturbation”. It is still a form of masturbation. If we want to get technical, the CCC defines masturbation as

By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure.

This definition does not just say a person stimulating themselves. It seems quite a general definition regarding deriving sexual pleasure.
 
I beg to differ.
You certainly may if you wish, but at the very least I haven’t found any document or heard any teaching which would support your differing opinion. If you can produce some teaching (i.e. authentic teaching) which would support your position I would be delighted to read it.
 
This is half of what we call “mutual masturbation”. It is still a form of masturbation. If we want to get technical, the CCC defines masturbation as

By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure.

This definition does not just say a person stimulating themselves. It seems quite a general definition regarding deriving sexual pleasure.
At least be fair and Quote the entire CCC.

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."137 "The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose." For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."138

You have to admit that sex outside of marriage is Fornication and is a sin.

There are also other “acts” besides sex that are sinful outside of marriage.

There are also acts within a marriage that are sinful. (Stimulation without sex is a sin, whether it be masturbation, mutual masturbation, oral sex)

I know you want to claim that a sin is a sin, but this is not completely true, SO LONG AS, the couple also participates in the marital embrace (sex).

Maybe you should read Christopher West’s book again, the first chapter sets the foundation for understanding all this.
 
As I said in my last post this is one thing that I have struggled with since my protestant youth days. I have not fallen into this temptation/sin in over a week now! While I have had temptation this week, it has not nearly been as strong as it was in the past and I have not given in to it.:extrahappy: For the last half of the week I’ve been dealing with a nasty ankle sprain (see prayer forums) But even before the injury I was doing rather good! I’m excited! Though my ankle still hurts 😦
 
I know I have found this helpful: The Catechism of Trent and the Six Commandment: “Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery”.

In it, it speaks about how the commandment to avoid adultery implies a commandment to strive for purity, and that in order to protect marriage, all sexual vice must be fought and eliminated. In particular, how even entertaining lustful thoughts can and will lead to bigger sins, adultery amongst them.

I struggled with masturbation all my life. It always seemed the one sin I could not overcome. Only recently, however, has that changed; I can’t remember the last time I engaged in it and I know it has been awhile. All I know is that God must truly be at work here, as this could have never been achieved on my own.

For me, as a second-time revert to the Faith, I have tried to pull out all the stops. That included ridding my computer of a vast array of impure images and videos I collected during my fallen years, which I had the habit to collect even before I fell away from the Faith. It included truly applying different perspectives towards women, towards looking at them as human beings made in God’s image (in that sense, daughters of God) who by that virtue alone deserve to be looked upon respectfully, not with degrading lustfulness. Learning to see and to understand that to look on a woman with the expressed purpose of gratifying base desires and deriving only pleasure from it is counter to the dignity of the human person and unchivalrous as well.

Now, when I read the Trent Catechism’s entry on the Sixth Commandment, it truly makes sense to me, more than it ever did. I hope others find it helpful, too.
 
This is half of what we call “mutual masturbation”. It is still a form of masturbation. If we want to get technical, the CCC defines masturbation as

By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure.

This definition does not just say a person stimulating themselves. It seems quite a general definition regarding deriving sexual pleasure.
I think this thread is diminishing into mental masturbation. Really, this is cutting things too fine: “masturbation” implies stimulating the genitals until climax. Anything before then is really part of arousal.

Similarly, the marital act is completed with the man’s climax inside his spouse, and the woman’s climax whenever that happens (with or without her spouse’s direct stimulation).

Arousal therefore can be done in the context of masturbation, or the marital act. If the intent is to use the stimulation that you call “one half of mutual masturbation” to facilitate the marital act, then it is by no means a sin, such form arousal, often quite vigorous, being needed by many men of a certain age to obtain an erection firm enough for intercourse. Maybe you’re not old enough to understand that yet. When you are you’ll understand that what you are saying is 100% and total nonsense.

On the other hand arousing yourself for the purpose of masturbation is a sin.

I really don’t think that the Church has any business dictating foreplay to a couple engaging in the licit use of the sexual faculty. And from everything I read, it doesn’t except in the fertile imaginations of what I imagine to be some sexually repressed men who seem to feel a need to impinge the intimacy of a marital couple. It really isn’t any of your, or Mr. Conte’s, business what we do for arousal.
 
If married people can get away with anything, goes because they are married, then all single people should be able to have anything goes too. Homosexuals & single do your thing. Mr Conte has the right to express his view as well as you & everyone else on this forum, thats what its about. Mr Conte has chosen the straight & narrow path where most choose the wide path that leads to destruction.This day & age no one wants to hear about moderatrion & purity, anal sex & oral sex is just fine if your married, well Then anal & oral sex for all!
 
I am no expert, so maybe I misunderstand but…

It is not that ‘masturbation’ is evil. Just like it is not that a gun is not evil, but in how it is used.

If a person masturbates simply to pleasure themselves, outside of the marital embrace, that is a sin.

Your rational is like saying that since sex outside of marriage is a sin, then all sex is a sin. That is clearly not true.

Read the book, it is really easy to read and makes sense. $10 (used) at amazon, including shipping.
this post is misleading.

masturbation (meaning completely by yourself, no spouse) is ALWAYs a sin

those who know more about the morality of this sin and do it anyway are more culpable than, say, a teenager who wasn’t raisd Catholic… or whatever, but it is still ‘grave matter’
 
maybe all my years of abstinance has caused me to become very virgininal … but all this graphic stuf about sex is making me a little ill… so i am not reading all posts here…
:rolleyes:

whatever happened to making love?

it seems that some people just talk about the physcal act… and that, frankly, just sounds disgusting…

just my thoughts and feelings, if i am allowed…

i don’t think we need to read this. most adults know how sex is done…

and i think it is inconsiderate because there could very well be young pepole reading these posts… Do they need all that graphic stuff??? :mad:

if i am offended… I’m sure i’m not the only one… and if i were a parent of a child/teen, i would not want my child going to CAF!

that is NOT a good thing, considering all the good stuff the child would miss…:mad:
 
this post is misleading.

masturbation (meaning completely by yourself, no spouse) is ALWAYs a sin

those who know more about the morality of this sin and do it anyway are more culpable than, say, a teenager who wasn’t raisd Catholic… or whatever, but it is still ‘grave matter’
Well given that in the 13 years since I returned to the Church I never EVER heard a homily saying it was sinful, and only ONCE heard a homily that dealt with sex at all, I would say that even many Catholics can be at least partially excused… Unless our clergy are prepared to face the issue head-on and say some things that people may not like to hear in their homilies then can we be surprised that many think it’s simply OK?

Note that this is in the province of Quebec. It may be different elsewhere.
 
Masturbation is normal sex, it comes naturally for us all, to do it is no sin, God meant for it as a sublimation for those who are single & those who are not fortunate enough to find a mate to marry of which there are many. It`s better to masturbate that go around making babies all over the place who are not cared for properly , I think masturbation is a form of natural birth control God given
 
Masturbation is normal sex, it comes naturally for us all, to do it is no sin, God meant for it as a sublimation for those who are single & those who are not fortunate enough to find a mate to marry of which there are many. It`s better to masturbate that go around making babies all over the place who are not cared for properly , I think masturbation is a form of natural birth control God given
Have you even read any of the posts in this thread?

Masturbation actually makes no sense what so ever. I suggest reading the book in my signature or John Paul II’s Theology of the Body.

Also, you say you are a Catholic. Are you a practicing Catholic? Because if you are, you should not be stating things that are directly contrary to Catholic teaching. It is okay to question things, but your post is the exact opposite of the Church.
 
Have you even read any of the posts in this thread?

Masturbation actually makes no sense what so ever. I suggest reading the book in my signature or John Paul II’s Theology of the Body.

Also, you say you are a Catholic. Are you a practicing Catholic? Because if you are, you should not be stating things that are directly contrary to Catholic teaching. It is okay to question things, but your post is the exact opposite of the Church.
It most certainly does make sense, It is perfectly natural & normal . All people are sexual beings, God gave them their sexuality whether they marry or not they have needs. If married people can do anything sexually behind closed doors, why not the person who isnt lucky enough to find a life time mate & there are many many. We all have sexual needs married or not, take a look at the world, it proves it. Every 23 seconds another abortion is performed, isnt masturbation better than conceiving a child then aborting it, Masturbation is God`s natural form of birth control, & I am a practicing catholic, maybe not the best, but practicing & I pray throughout the day, so maybe I am a better catholic than I think I am
 
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