Masterbation as an Alternative to Normal Sex

[chessmane4e5]

"chessmane4e5:

I am no expert, so maybe I misunderstand but…

It is not that ‘masturbation’ is evil. Just like it is not that a gun is not evil, but in how it is used.

If a person masturbates simply to pleasure themselves, outside of the marital embrace, that is a sin.

Your rational is like saying that since sex outside of marriage is a sin, then all sex is a sin. That is clearly not true.

Read the book, it is really easy to read and makes sense. $10 (used) at amazon, including shipping.

this post is misleading.

masturbation (meaning completely by yourself, no spouse) is ALWAYs a sin

those who know more about the morality of this sin and do it anyway are more culpable than, say, a teenager who wasn’t raisd Catholic… or whatever, but it is still ‘grave matter’

My post was misleading, by itself, but if you read what was before it, and if you read post #168, you will see what I was trying to say. Sorry if any of my posts were too graphic. If you have not read the book in my signature, I think you should, it is not graphic and I plan on having my children read it when they are old enough (or when the schools start to push sex ed on them).

 

[chessmane4e5]

It most certainly does make sense, It is perfectly natural & normal . All people are sexual beings, God gave them their sexuality whether they marry or not they have needs. If married people can do anything sexually behind closed doors, why not the person who isn`t lucky enough to find a life time mate & there are many many. We all have sexual needs married or not, take a look at the world, it proves it

That is just it, married people are not supposed to do anything they want behind closed doors. The main stream media has portrayed this, and I am sure some couples do things they are not supposed to, but that is not what God wants.

He did not create us to be sexual beings. Sex is a part of who we are, but it actually expresses an amazing mystery. You have heard it said, “when the two flesh become one”, this is what God had intended. He created Eve as the perfect complement to Adam. Male and Female are meant to be together. To separate them, simply for pleasure, is anything but natural.

There is more to life than just sex. You post is trying to pull at the emotional heartstrings and cause us to have pity on those that “can’t” marry. While I may want them to find happiness, I do not want them to sin.

Have you read through the posts in this forum? I quoted a few pages from the book in my signature just recently. Go back and read them and see if you still feel the same way. I think once you understand why God created us, it will make more sense.

 

[Lauds]

That is just it, married people are not supposed to do anything they want behind closed doors. The main stream media has portrayed this, and I am sure some couples do things they are not supposed to, but that is not what God wants.

He did not create us to be sexual beings. Sex is a part of who we are, but it actually expresses an amazing mystery. You have heard it said, “when the two flesh become one”, this is what God had intended. He created Eve as the perfect complement to Adam. Male and Female are meant to be together. To separate them, simply for pleasure, is anything but natural.

There is more to life than just sex. You post is trying to pull at the emotional heartstrings and cause us to have pity on those that “can’t” marry. While I may want them to find happiness, I do not want them to sin.

Have you read through the posts in this forum? I quoted a few pages from the book in my signature just recently. Go back and read them and see if you still feel the same way. I think once you understand why God created us, it will make more sense.

An unmarried adult, who through no fault of his own cannot find a mate has sexual needs too, yes there is more to life than just sex, but sometimes the sex urge justs gets the best of the most Holy well intentioned persons, even our priests & consecrated religious are not immune from this. Masturbation begins young a natural normal thing to do, young people & all people who masturbate are made to feel dirty & its not so, its a normal almost necessary function

 

[baylee]

I think this thread is diminishing into mental masturbation. Really, this is cutting things too fine: “masturbation” implies stimulating the genitals until climax. Anything before then is really part of arousal.

Similarly, the marital act is completed with the man’s climax inside his spouse, and the woman’s climax whenever that happens (with or without her spouse’s direct stimulation).

Arousal therefore can be done in the context of masturbation, or the marital act. If the intent is to use the stimulation that you call “one half of mutual masturbation” to facilitate the marital act, then it is by no means a sin, such form arousal, often quite vigorous, being needed by many men of a certain age to obtain an erection firm enough for intercourse. Maybe you’re not old enough to understand that yet. When you are you’ll understand that what you are saying is 100% and total nonsense.

On the other hand arousing yourself for the purpose of masturbation is a sin.

I really don’t think that the Church has any business dictating foreplay to a couple engaging in the licit use of the sexual faculty. And from everything I read, it doesn’t except in the fertile imaginations of what I imagine to be some sexually repressed men who seem to feel a need to impinge the intimacy of a marital couple. It really isn’t any of your, or Mr. Conte’s, business what we do for arousal.

Are you always this condescending? I think you need to re-read my posts because you have incorrectly interpreted my posts, my intention and how mature/knowledgeable I might be on this topic, thank you very much.

 

[chessmane4e5]

An unmarried adult, who through no fault of his own cannot find a mate has sexual needs too, yes there is more to life than just sex, but sometimes the sex urge justs gets the best of the most Holy well intentioned persons, even our priests & consecrated religious are not immune from this. Masturbation begins young a natural normal thing to do, young people & all people who masturbate are made to feel dirty & its not so, **its a normal almost necessary function**

You can believe what you will, and I will believe what the Church teaches.

It is not normal. It is the opposite of necessary. It is necessary to breathe air and drink water and eat food. These things are necessary.

As for normal, I can think of almost nothing as far from normal as masturbation. As human beings, we are meant to love. Sex is an expression of that love. Having “sex” with yourself is the opposite of love. It is selfish and done only for self-gratification.

I do not have the time to type out Christopher West’s reply to masturbation, but even if I did, you might not understand it without having read the first chapter of the book. It is fairly short book, and very easy to read. I strongly suggest you buy and read it.

 

[Lauds]

Chessman, I do think You are a very good man. Your very nice disposition comes through with your posts, unlike some of these others. I am a practicing catholic, I just have some of my own ideas about some of the Church teachings, & I think maybe we all do in some area, even Priests & Consecrated religious, I think its natural, we are natural beings, God & everything about him is supernatural, so there are many whys among us all. However I am Glad that You are a Fine Catholic & hope that you never waver. My Catholic Faith means a Great deal to me, even tho I am not perfect. Just want to thank You for being what appears, a DEVOUT Catholic, of which we need more of:thumbsup:

 

[Lauds]

Respectfully I still say it`s normal & in a lot of cases necessary

 

[OraLabora]

Are you always this condescending? I think you need to re-read my posts because you have incorrectly interpreted my posts, my intention and how mature/knowledgeable I might be on this topic, thank you very much.

You originally said:

This is half of what we call “mutual masturbation”. It is still a form of masturbation. If we want to get technical, the CCC defines masturbation as

By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure.

This definition does not just say a person stimulating themselves. It seems quite a general definition regarding deriving sexual pleasure.

It sounds to me like you said that manual stimulation is not allowed because it is 1/2 of mutual masturbation. If I misinterpreted you, I apologize, it’s possible, my first language is French, not English.

If I did correctly interpret you, then I vehemently disagree that this is a form of “masturbation” when in the context of the licit marital act. It is a form of arousal.

Nothing in what I can see in Church documents says it is illicit to arouse your spouse in order to have sex. A certain Karol Wojtyla said, in fact, the opposite.

Sex between spouses is a very private affair. The Church has no business in dictating sexual tastes (other than requiring that the sex act be open to procreation) any more than she has dictating culinary tastes, provided that both spouses are in agreement and the act doesn’t degrade the other spouse, objectify him/her, hurt him/her, or make him/her uncomfortable.

 

[chessmane4e5]

Chessman, I do think You are a very good man. Your very nice disposition comes through with your posts, unlike some of these others. I am a practicing catholic, I just have some of my own ideas about some of the Church teachings, & I think maybe we all do in some area, even Priests & Consecrated religious, I think its natural, we are natural beings, God & everything about him is supernatural, so there are many whys among us all. However I am Glad that You are a Fine Catholic & hope that you never waver. My Catholic Faith means a Great deal to me, even tho I am not perfect. Just want to thank You for being what appears, a DEVOUT Catholic, of which we need more of:thumbsup:

Thanks

As I stated in previous posts, I used to masturbate. I did it before I was a Catholic (mostly because sex ed in school said it was normal). I did it after I became a Catholic (I knew I wasn’t supposed to, but that was it. Sort of like “Don’t push the red button” but I had no idea why not. So I just kept doing what I always did.) I did it even after I was married. (Especially those 6 weeks after my wife had a kid).

I only stopped after reading the book in my signature. It literally changed my perspective and my life. It has been months (I don’t even want to count, but I suppose I could look back and see when I actually purchased the book). Are their times I still get the “urge”? Yes, but I fight them off the same way I fight off other sexual sins (lust, checking woman out in public, lewd images on t.v.) by saying a Hail Mary It works wonders.

I do not think I am special or even stronger willed than anyone else. I just made a decision when I realized how disordered it really was. I completely understand how addictive it is (and I am willing to bet that 99% of the people that masturbate also look at some form of pornography). But all things are possible with God. Ask and you will receive, knock and the door will be opened for you.

 

[OraLabora]

Respectfully I still say it`s normal & in a lot of cases necessary

You raise a very interesting point when you mention priests and consecrated religious. I know a Benedictine monk and priest, in his 60s, who says that the Church’s sexual morality was not designed for humans.

For some, avoiding masturbation is easy. For others it requires heroic effort. For others, it it requires effort but it turns them into uptight and miserable people to be around. The problem I have with these posts is that a lot of them seem to imply “since I was able to do it, you should be able to as well”.

That is plain wrong, and sort of negates the redemptive work of Christ who came indeed to offer hope to those who struggle with their own sin. Some of us will never overcome this sin. The person who struggles valiantly but fails repeatedly, probably gains more favour in Christ’s eyes for the one time he does succeed, than the person who finds avoiding this sin easy.

We all are slaves to our different temptations. Some we manage to fight off, others dog us until our grave.

That’s why Christ died for us. And it’s why I would wish to see a more pastoral and less legalistic approach to the issue.

 

[baylee]

You originally said:

It sounds to me like you said that manual stimulation is not allowed because it is 1/2 of mutual masturbation. If I misinterpreted you, I apologize, it’s possible, my first language is French, not English.

If I did correctly interpret you, then I vehemently disagree that this is a form of “masturbation” when in the context of the licit marital act. It is a form of arousal.

Nothing in what I can see in Church documents says it is illicit to arouse your spouse in order to have sex. A certain Karol Wojtyla said, in fact, the opposite.

Sex between spouses is a very private affair. The Church has no business in dictating sexual tastes (other than requiring that the sex act be open to procreation) any more than she has dictating culinary tastes, provided that both spouses are in agreement and the act doesn’t degrade the other spouse, objectify him/her, hurt him/her, or make him/her uncomfortable.

Actually, I’m saying that if the wife is stimulated* to completion* after his climax, then that is essentially masturbation (in this example, the husband is masturbating his wife to completion…not just arousing her; in another example, she could be masturbating herself). I’m saying that it makes no sense that this is allowed when masturbation is a grave sin. There is no exception for this in the CCC. How did a grave sin all of a sudden become okay?

Just to be clear, I don’t agree with Ron, but at least he’s consistent: no masturbation allowed (in marriage or out).

Added: Also, I don’t take issue with it being allowed. I’m glad to see there is wiggle room on the teaching of masturbation within marriage. I happen to think what a husband and wife do together is very different than what happens outside of marriage…and shouldn’t be taught in a pharisaical way.

 

[chessmane4e5]

Actually, I’m saying that if the wife is stimulated* to completion* after his climax, then that is essentially masturbation (in this example, the husband is masturbating his wife to completion…not just arousing her; in another example, she could be masturbating herself). I’m saying that it makes no sense that this is allowed when masturbation is a grave sin. There is no exception for this in the CCC. How did a grave sin all of a sudden become okay?

Just to be clear, I don’t agree with Ron, but at least he’s consistent: no masturbation allowed (in marriage or out).

Although, when the wife climaxes after the husband, their is a greater chance of pregnancy. Not sure how much time can elapse.

I suppose it is all in how you view the marital embrace. If it is a truly loving and life giving act, then it is not a sin.

If when the guy is done though, and he just simply rolls over and says “sorry honey”, that is not very loving.

 

[baylee]

Although, when the wife climaxes after the husband, their is a greater chance of pregnancy. Not sure how much time can elapse.

I suppose it is all in how you view the marital embrace. If it is a truly loving and life giving act, then it is not a sin.

If when the guy is done though, and he just simply rolls over and says “sorry honey”, that is not very loving.

Likewise, it’s not very loving if the husband has trouble climaxing vaginally (maybe he’s too tired or whatever) and the wife rolls over and says, “sorry honey”.

 

[Lauds]

You raise a very interesting point when you mention priests and consecrated religious. I know a Benedictine monk and priest, in his 60s, who says that the Church’s sexual morality was not designed for humans.

For some, avoiding masturbation is easy. For others it requires heroic effort. For others, it it requires effort but it turns them into uptight and miserable people to be around. The problem I have with these posts is that a lot of them seem to imply “since I was able to do it, you should be able to as well”.

That is plain wrong, and sort of negates the redemptive work of Christ who came indeed to offer hope to those who struggle with their own sin. Some of us will never overcome this sin. The person who struggles valiantly but fails repeatedly, probably gains more favour in Christ’s eyes for the one time he does succeed, than the person who finds avoiding this sin easy.

We all are slaves to our different temptations. Some we manage to fight off, others dog us until our grave.

That’s why Christ died for us. And it’s why I would wish to see a more pastoral and less legalistic approach to the issue.

WEll written & very truthful, I was in a monastery at one time & the temptation to masturbate was overwhelming for me & I am sure for a lot of others. There was also evidence of Homosexuality going on there. I am in complete asgreement with your post:thumbsup:

 

[carinapir]

This is half of what we call “mutual masturbation”. It is still a form of masturbation. If we want to get technical, the CCC defines masturbation as

By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure.

This definition does not just say a person stimulating themselves. It seems quite a general definition regarding deriving sexual pleasure.

By the definition above, the marital act is also a form of masturbation. It is deliberate, it is stimulation, and it gives sexual pleasure. Now we’re in real trouble!

 

[baylee]

By the definition above, the marital act is also a form of masturbation. It is deliberate, it is stimulation, and it gives sexual pleasure.

Go back and read my other posts…you’re off the mark here.

 

[OraLabora]

Actually, I’m saying that if the wife is stimulated* to completion* after his climax, then that is essentially masturbation (in this example, the husband is masturbating his wife to completion…not just arousing her; in another example, she could be masturbating herself). I’m saying that it makes no sense that this is allowed when masturbation is a grave sin. There is no exception for this in the CCC. How did a grave sin all of a sudden become okay?

Just to be clear, I don’t agree with Ron, but at least he’s consistent: no masturbation allowed (in marriage or out).

OK I see your point. FWIW, I think the true gentleman looks after his wife’s needs before satisfying his own.

But at this stage we get into the gritty detail about what works and what doesn’t for each couple. If they get down to that level of legalism I suspect a couple will do their union more harm than good, and at least one of the pair-most often the wife- will end up finding sex frustrating and unpleasant, which will cause discord.

It’s the danger of a legalistic rather than pastoral approach, that is one that demands that we be perfect rather than one that recognizes that we all have flaws and demands that we do our best with the hand that was dealt to us. I am pretty sure that hurting couples isn’t the intent of the Church’s teachings which is probably why Fr. Wojtyla, before he became John Paul II, was sensitive to the feminine need for pleasure in the marital act.

It was in fact a very scrupulous Church in Quebec (some say even Jansenist) that ultimately was its undoing. Now the local Church has swung too far towards a laissez-faire attitude that is just as effective in emptying pews of people seeking some semblance of Truth.

I believe it is possible to reconcile Truth, that is an absolute vision of Godly perfection, with pastoral care for a wounded flock who will never be able to attain it. Avoiding Truth, or ignoring the difficulties of the penitent in the pew, both serve to undermine the Church.

 

[baylee]

OK I see your point. FWIW, I think the true gentleman looks after his wife’s needs before satisfying his own.

But at this stage we get into the gritty detail about what works and what doesn’t for each couple. If they get down to that level of legalism I suspect a couple will do their union more harm than good, and at least one of the pair-most often the wife- will end up finding sex frustrating and unpleasant, which will cause discord.

It’s the danger of a legalistic rather than pastoral approach, that is one that demands that we be perfect rather than one that recognizes that we all have flaws and demands that we do our best with the hand that was dealt to us. I am pretty sure that hurting couples isn’t the intent of the Church’s teachings which is probably why Fr. Wojtyla, before he became John Paul II, was sensitive to the feminine need for pleasure in the marital act.

It was in fact a very scrupulous Church in Quebec (some say even Jansenist) that ultimately was its undoing. Now the local Church has swung too far towards a laissez-faire attitude that is just as effective in emptying pews of people seeking some semblance of Truth.

I believe it is possible to reconcile Truth, that is an absolute vision of Godly perfection, with pastoral care for a wounded flock who will never be able to attain it. Avoiding Truth, or ignoring the difficulties of the penitent in the pew, both serve to undermine the Church.

Bingo.

 

[carinapir]

Go back and read my other posts…you’re off the mark here.

Sorry, I’ve been reading too many of Ron Conte’s posts. However, my actual point was that the wording in the Catechism that you quoted is complex and did not make sense as quoted. If you actually add the rest of the text it includes:

"The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.’ For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of ‘the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."

Here we can see that the Church is referring to an act outside of marriage or without one’s spouse. It says that “here” the pleasure is sought outside of the mutual self-giving sexual relationship, implying that such pleasure is to be reserved for the marital embrace and this is why it should not be done alone. I cannot find any support here for a woman to be to be denied assistance within the overall context of the marital act.

 

[curl]

That’s why Christ died for us. And it’s why I would wish to see a more pastoral and less legalistic approach to the issue.

Amen!
Thank you for this perspective!