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chessmane4e5
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Not sure why you are upset by this?\
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=416018&page=15
You can read my post here, which quotes Christopher’s West Book on this issue.
Edited to add the link
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forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=416018&page=15
You can read my post here, which quotes Christopher’s West Book on this issue.
Edited to add the link
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OraLabora
Guest
It’s true but then nothing suggests that this deprives them of companionship. They can always seek a civil or common law union. The Church won’t recognize the union as a “marriage” but it doesn’t stop them from living together. I suppose some folks here though would try to taint them with the sin of “causing scandal”.If that is really true that the Church doesnt allow impotent men to marry, then That is certainly a sorry church law, probably along with many of their sorry laws, a lot of them dont make sense. Why should a man be deprived of companionship just because thru no fault of his own he is impotent, what a sorry church law. Its no wonder that 80% of catholics dont practice at all
Again I think we need to recognize that the Church’s view of the perfect union, while theoretically and theologically correct, will bump up against human reality, and that her pastors should exercise the greatest discretion before condemning people in less than perfect situations with “mortal sin”.
My experience in the confessional is that in fact her pastors are in fact very sensitive to human condition, most of them more so than many posters here.
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OraLabora
Guest
Thing is that we’re talking about people in valid consummated marriages that become impotent, not impotent people trying to enter an invalid marriage. It’s a world of difference.Not sure why you are upset by this?\
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=416018&page=15
You can read my post here, which quotes Christopher’s West Book on this issue.
Edited to add the link
I still maintain that it would be extremely insensitive to tell a married couple, after the husband becomes impotent, that they are no longer able to enjoy any sexual pleasure at all, between them. Fini, it’s over…
At least where I live I don’t think you’d find a single priest willing to tell that to the couple. It’s one time where sensitivity would require you put legalism aside for a while, and accept that the couple are adapting as best they can to a difficult situation. Surely in such a case the the greater good is the marriage, not where the man ejaculates.
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Lauds
Guest
Yes, I find that to be true in the confessional also. I believe some of the priests believe some of the Church teachings need to be changed, in fact I know so, & some of the Church laws do. Maybe there would be a resurgence in the Church if some of the silly man made laws were changedIt’s true but then nothing suggests that this deprives them of companionship. They can always seek a civil or common law union. The Church won’t recognize the union as a “marriage” but it doesn’t stop them from living together. I suppose some folks here though would try to taint them with the sin of “causing scandal”.
Again I think we need to recognize that the Church’s view of the perfect union, while theoretically and theologically correct, will bump up against human reality, and that her pastors should exercise the greatest discretion before condemning people in less than perfect situations with “mortal sin”.
My experience in the confessional is that in fact her pastors are in fact very sensitive to human condition, most of them more so than many posters here.
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Lycorth
Guest
To paraphrase the Lord, we cannot serve two masters. We cannot serve both God and pleasure.Not sure why you are upset by this?
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chessmane4e5
Guest
AMEN!To paraphrase the Lord, we cannot serve two masters. We cannot serve both God and pleasure.
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OraLabora
Guest
God never intended that we should not enjoy pleasure, and even seek it out within reasonable boundaries. Why, for instance, should it be sinful for me to seek out taking my wife to a nice restaurant, for a pleasurable dinner and wine, and hope that the evening finish with lovemaking? If I get pleasure from music, what Catholic rule forbids me from seeking out concerts in the genre I prefer, and even getting a little excited at the prospect of getting tickets when a favorite performer is in town?To paraphrase the Lord, we cannot serve two masters. We cannot serve both God and pleasure.
A fellow oblate once related to us how he was sitting on his deck with a glass of scotch in hand, reading a book on theology, when a Calvinist friend showed up and was absolutely shocked at the sight.
Well my friend, we are not Calvinists, we are Catholics. We have feasts to celebrate several times per week except in Lent (when even then we celebrate the Paschal mystery); the notion that we cannot seek pleasure is not Catholic whatsoever. Life is a great gift. We will all inevitably suffer on this long journey, and there’s no reason to self-impose it on ourselves except in penitential seasons and then too within reasonable boundaries, so that our privations in themselves do not become a matter of sinful pride.
That we become enslaved to pleasure is another matter. But be careful you don’t give out the message that all pleasure is wrong.
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crazzeto
Guest
Correct, the seeking of pleasure is not in and of it’s self sinful. Where it becomes sinful is when it becomes disordered, the seeking of pleasure becomes disoreded when it violates the natural law.
Masturbation does just this, it does so by not placing sexuality in it’s proper context, which is the God like sharing of love between a husband and wife.
Masturbation does just this, it does so by not placing sexuality in it’s proper context, which is the God like sharing of love between a husband and wife.
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baylee
Guest
I believe that was God and money…not pleasure. That’s a bit more than “paraphrasing”.To paraphrase the Lord, we cannot serve two masters. We cannot serve both God and pleasure.
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OraLabora
Guest
And we get back to the core issue, those who don’t have a “proper context” because of being unmarried, illness of self or spouse preventing normal intercourse, etc.Correct, the seeking of pleasure is not in and of it’s self sinful. Where it becomes sinful is when it becomes disordered, the seeking of pleasure becomes disoreded when it violates the natural law.
Masturbation does just this, it does so by not placing sexuality in it’s proper context, which is the God like sharing of love between a husband and wife.
Asking them to read Christopher West’s book Good News about Sex and Marriage isn’t likely to make them feel any better or alleviate their frustration particularly if the situation isn’t temporary. Which is why I think confessors are fairly “lenient” about this sin, invoking the many factors that reduce culpability.
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crazzeto
Guest
The question becomes then, are you willing to live by the Word of God. By disregarding the Moral teaching, you are telling Christ that you are more important that his teachings, does this sounds like a fruitful attitude one should take?And we get back to the core issue, those who don’t have a “proper context” because of being unmarried, illness of self or spouse preventing normal intercourse, etc.
Asking them to read Christopher West’s book Good News about Sex and Marriage isn’t likely to make them feel any better or alleviate their frustration particularly if the situation isn’t temporary. Which is why I think confessors are fairly “lenient” about this sin, invoking the many factors that reduce culpability.
I think when one fights these urges, they will come to appriciate Christ’s teachings even more, but being blessed later with a better marriage (later on), and certainly a better spiritual state.
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OraLabora
Guest
Not everyone has the same capacity to fight it. I am by no means advocating it. It isn’t easy going from a life of regular and normal sexual activity (say 20 years) and then suddenly no longer being able to.The question becomes then, are you willing to live by the Word of God. By disregarding the Moral teaching, you are telling Christ that you are more important that his teachings, does this sounds like a fruitful attitude one should take?
I think when one fights these urges, they will come to appriciate Christ’s teachings even more, but being blessed later with a better marriage (later on), and certainly a better spiritual state.
Nobody, and I mean absolutely nobody except the very few canonized (and the few saints that aren’t that we don’t know about because they lead very private lives), can live 100% by the Word of God. We all fall short in some way or another and we shouldn’t be so quick to condemn those for whom this is the way in which they fall short.
We can approach the Truth, but we can never 100% attain it.
The Church has two main duties: teaching the Truth, and pastoral care of her flock. On the one hand she rightly teaches that this sin is grave matter. On the pastoral side, she and her pastors recognize that this is one of the most difficult habits to overcome, especially for those in less than ideal circumstances. Which is why the CCC specifically states that there are many factors that reduce or limit the culpability attached to this act.
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crazzeto
Guest
No, certainly we are all given different abilities… But to try and use that as an excuse not to try is a fallocy. Ultimatly God judges you on what is in your heart, if your heart is set to fight sin God will most certainly look favorably upon you for this.Not everyone has the same capacity to fight it. I am by no means advocating it. It isn’t easy going from a life of regular and normal sexual activity (say 20 years) and then suddenly no longer being able to.
Nobody, and I mean absolutely nobody except the very few canonized (and the few saints that aren’t that we don’t know about because they lead very private lives), can live 100% by the Word of God. We all fall short in some way or another and we shouldn’t be so quick to condemn those for whom this is the way in which they fall short.
But imagine how much less favorably he will look upon you if you say “well I know the Moral law, but it just doesn’t suite my life style very well. And lets not kid our selves, not everyone really has the same capacity to fight sin. So I think I’ll just not try, and do whatever I want to do”.
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OraLabora
Guest
I agree we have to try. I’m just saying it is not easy, and we here should not condemn those in this struggle:No, certainly we are all given different abilities… But to try and use that as an excuse not to try is a fallocy. Ultimatly God judges you on what is in your heart, if your heart is set to fight sin God will most certainly look favorably upon you for this.
But imagine how much less favorably he will look upon you if you say “well I know the Moral law, but it just doesn’t suite my life style very well. And lets not kid our selves, not everyone really has the same capacity to fight sin. So I think I’ll just not try, and do whatever I want to do”.
CCC: “To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that lessen or even extenuate moral culpability.”
I believe the statement is deliberately vague, to allow pastors discretion in the confessional and to avoid falling into scrupulosity.
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crazzeto
Guest
My posting in this thread (previously and currently) as well as those supporting my position that I have read are not about passing judgment upon our fellow Christians. This, simply put, is not something we can do.I agree we have to try. I’m just saying it is not easy, and we here should not condemn those in this struggle:
CCC: “To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that lessen or even extenuate moral culpability.”
I believe the statement is deliberately vague, to allow pastors discretion in the confessional and to avoid falling into scrupulosity.
Rather, it’s to counter the opinion being posted here that "it just doesn’t matter’. I beleive one response in this very thread was something along the lines of
“If you want to masturbate, lock the door and have at it. God isn’t going to strike you dead.”
With out passing judgment upon anyone, I can objectivly say that following this advice is a bad idea. It exhorts exactly the wrong kind of attitude someone should take with the subject of sexuality. Will God strike you dead? Well probably not, that’s one thing that poster had right. But that said, it’s not in God’s interests to “smite” you for sinning. We have an immortal soul, God’s interests are to save it and offer you every oppertunity to be saved. This is why Christ died on the cross for us.
By taking the above mentioned position, you are making that task more difficult. Rather than looking at masturbation in those terms, look at it more in terms of something which should be over come. View overcoming this urge as a victory to be gained.
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OraLabora
Guest
Respectfully, I disagree. First of all I disagree that I am “encouraging” it.My posting in this thread (previously and currently) as well as those supporting my position that I have read are not about passing judgment upon our fellow Christians. This, simply put, is not something we can do.
Rather, it’s to counter the opinion being posted here that "it just doesn’t matter’. I beleive one response in this very thread was something along the lines of
“If you want to masturbate, lock the door and have at it. God isn’t going to strike you dead.”
With out passing judgment upon anyone, I can objectivly say that following this advice is a bad idea. It exhorts exactly the wrong kind of attitude someone should take with the subject of sexuality. Will God strike you dead? Well probably not, that’s one thing that poster had right. But that said, it’s not in God’s interests to “smite” you for sinning. We have an immortal soul, God’s interests are to save it and offer you every oppertunity to be saved. This is why Christ died on the cross for us.
By taking the above mentioned position, you are making that task more difficult. Rather than looking at masturbation in those terms, look at it more in terms of something which should be over come. View overcoming this urge as a victory to be gained.
Secondly, I believe that this board seems to have an almost unhealthy obsession with the topic. To an extent we are are all contributing to that no matter which side of the debate one is on.
I believe that this unhealthy obsession risks creating much anxiety among young and not so young men struggling with this. Frankly knowing my own psychology, being told “I could do it, so therefore you can do it too” is not helpful. Because some of us can’t do it and being faced with more guilt and anxiety over the matter is not psychologically helpful. Therefore my responses are nuanced by the fact that I don’t want to inadvertently pile on an extra load of guilt on someone already feeling really bad about this on the one hand, but don’t want to encourage it on the other.
What would be helpful is to tell folks that this is a very private matter, and if you’re feeling guilt or are unsure of your culpability, your best bet is to take it up with your confessor, and to rest assured that God loves you, and He will help you through your confessor. There’s nothing wrong with citing the entire CCC passage on masturbation here, and saying that if you are unsure of your own situation, please consult your confessor.
We wouldn’t, in this day and age, ask a barber to perform surgery on us. We should probably, by the same token, entrust the care of our souls to the pastors Christ appointed for us. Amateurs can really mess things up!!!
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crazzeto
Guest
Posting along the lines I used as an example is in fact, encouraging it. It’s an attempt to downplay the consequences of masturbation which have been talked over at length in this thread.Respectfully, I disagree. First of all I disagree that I am “encouraging” it.
It is in no way unhealthy to aid in someone forming their contience better, to make them better formed to Christ.Secondly, I believe that this board seems to have an almost unhealthy obsession with the topic. To an extent we are are all contributing to that no matter which side of the debate one is on.
Again, there’s nothing unhealthy about informing someone about the moral law, and forming them to Christ. It’s expected that one will struggle in life against sin, we know this to be true and no one can change that. Telling someone “it’s ok, go for it” in order to “avoid this anxioty” is what is not healthy. As explained at length, this is an intregle part of this so called “sexual revolution” which has had such a detramental effect on our culture.I believe that this unhealthy obsession risks creating much anxiety among young and not so young men struggling with this. Frankly knowing my own psychology, being told “I could do it, so therefore you can do it too” is not helpful. Because some of us can’t do it and being faced with more guilt and anxiety over the matter is not psychologically helpful. Therefore my responses are nuanced by the fact that I don’t want to inadvertently pile on an extra load of guilt on someone already feeling really bad about this on the one hand, but don’t want to encourage it on the other.
This is terrible advice to give someone here looking for advice and support. Christianity is not now, nor has it ever been a “private religion”. It is, always has been and always will be about the community. The community coming together for mutal support, lifting one another up so that we can all run the race, and receive the incorruptible crown of victory.What would be helpful is to tell folks that this is a very private matter, and if you’re feeling guilt or are unsure of your culpability, your best bet is to take it up with your confessor, and to rest assured that God loves you, and He will help you through your confessor. There’s nothing wrong with citing the entire CCC passage on masturbation here, and saying that if you are unsure of your own situation, please consult your confessor.
The truth of God never changes, it doesn’t evolve.We wouldn’t, in this day and age, ask a barber to perform surgery on us. We should probably, by the same token, entrust the care of our souls to the pastors Christ appointed for us. Amateurs can really mess things up!!!
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davidv
Guest
I beg to differ. We are all offered sufficient grace to overcome any evil that attempts to come into our lives.Not everyone has the same capacity to fight it.
This false. See above. The only reason we don’t is that we choose not to.I am by no means advocating it. It isn’t easy going from a life of regular and normal sexual activity (say 20 years) and then suddenly no longer being able to.
Nobody, and I mean absolutely nobody except the very few canonized (and the few saints that aren’t that we don’t know about because they lead very private lives), can live 100% by the Word of God.
No one is condemning those that fall. the reason for their fall is being condemned.We all fall short in some way or another and we shouldn’t be so quick to condemn those for whom this is the way in which they fall short.
If this were true, none of us will be heaven. Those in heaven have attain 100% truth, face-to-face with Jesus (Truth)We can approach the Truth, but we can never 100% attain it.
But none of this ever delares it not a sin.The Church has two main duties: teaching the Truth, and pastoral care of her flock. On the one hand she rightly teaches that this sin is grave matter. On the pastoral side, she and her pastors recognize that this is one of the most difficult habits to overcome, especially for those in less than ideal circumstances. Which is why the CCC specifically states that there are many factors that reduce or limit the culpability attached to this act.
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OraLabora
Guest
The reality that faithful Catholics can and do repeatedly fail would tend to counter this. If this wasn’t the case we wouldn’t need Christ’s redemptive work on the Cross. It was reality that human imperfection made it impossible for man to follow God’s law 100% that lead to the need for such redemption.I beg to differ. We are all offered sufficient grace to overcome any evil that attempts to come into our lives.
The reason that we don’t is because of the Fall. To think that we can is Utopian, and not at all aligned to the reality of life.This false. See above. The only reason we don’t is that we choose not to.
By saying “we all have the grace to do it, so shut up and do it” we are doing just that: condemning those who fall. Or at least laying a king-sized guilt trip on them.No one is condemning those that fall. the reason for their fall is being condemned.
We get to attain that 100% truth in heaven, not before it, after passing through purgatory, except for those very few who are saints and martyrs.If this were true, none of us will be heaven. Those in heaven have attain 100% truth, face-to-face with Jesus (Truth)
Nor did I declare that it wasn’t a sin.But none of this ever declares it not a sin.
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onmyknees
Guest
OraLabora,Not everyone has the same capacity to fight it. I am by no means advocating it. It isn’t easy going from a life of regular and normal sexual activity (say 20 years) and then suddenly no longer being able to.
Nobody, and I mean absolutely nobody except the very few canonized (and the few saints that aren’t that we don’t know about because they lead very private lives), can live 100% by the Word of God. We all fall short in some way or another and we shouldn’t be so quick to condemn those for whom this is the way in which they fall short.
We can approach the Truth, but we can never 100% attain it.
The Church has two main duties: teaching the Truth, and pastoral care of her flock. On the one hand she rightly teaches that this sin is grave matter. On the pastoral side, she and her pastors recognize that this is one of the most difficult habits to overcome, especially for those in less than ideal circumstances. Which is why the CCC specifically states that there are many factors that reduce or limit the culpability attached to this act.
I know that there are posters here who have health issues that make normal intercourse impossible. When some of us posters here give examples of how we have been able to conquer this habit of many many years, we are not saying that we can do it, so you can too. We are not trying to impose a quilt trip on these people. It is very difficult to kick this habit and even harder for some. We just want to give the correct advice to them so that they don’t give up. Here is and example of why you cannot always count on the orthodox teaching in the confessional.
I went to my pastor when my dh and I could not have intercourse for many months due to a health issue that I had. His advice was that it was ok to still have sex without intercourse. I wanted a second opinion. So I went to my confessor who I knew was a very holy priest and always gave advice that matched the teachings of the Church.
When I told him that I did not know if we could abstain for this long. He did not hesitate and he said, You CAN do this! And be assured that my prayers are with you." I don’t know about you but I was happy to hear this. It makes me cry when I get unorthodox teaching from priests. They have to get to heaven too. And look at all the souls they are misdirecting. My dh and I did not get through this time on our own account but only with trusting in God’s grace and many prayers.
The thing that bothers me the most about the posters here (that keep saying that it should be ok to masturbate under these circumstances) is that they don’t even seem to want to try and do it God’s way. If they did they would not be here saying that the Church should change it’s teachings. The teachings on faith and morals cannot change. The teachings have been guided by the Holy Spirit.
I agree that it will be a long hard battle for some of us, maybe until the end of our life. And thank God when we fall we have confession and God’s mercy. I think Jesus gave some of us harder crosses to bear because He loves us so much and wants us to share in His Passion. When we suffer for Christ we receive great rewards. Did you ever notice that people who suffer the most seem to be the most humble and giving people?
We all need to strive for holiness and suffering is the fastest way to get there. My dad died this last year and he was an excellent example of selfless giving, love, and bearing his sufferings patiently. I often think of him meeting Jesus and Jesus saying, “Well done my good and faithful servant.” And I read this to inspire me to bear my sufferings.
Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw a holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband, and I heard a great voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them; he will wipe away every tear form their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away.”
I’m so glad we are Catholic!
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