Masterbation uncertainty

  • Thread starter Thread starter mellon00collie
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
davidv said:
As a Catholic, you have another choice. It is the sacrament of reconciliation. Through it you can be freed from the bondage of sin throught the grace that is available from it.
Click to expand...
PM which is it a rock or a hard place?
Sorry, I could not resist. This sounds sexual in nature, especially with what you are referring to.
 
SteakNPotatoes said:
There is nothing, nothing physically unhealthy about occasional masturbation.

If you wish to make a case that it is unhealthy spiritually, then by all means go ahead, but don’t even try to suggest that spanking the monkey causes physical harm. It is simply not true.
Click to expand...
It shows weak faith that such stories have to be made up, as well.
 
originally posted by hopeful mom
Anyway, almost ten years in, with my sixth baby on the way, I’ve realized it is the marathon, not the skip in the park I thought it was going to be. I’m not saying marriage and family isn’t a blessing. I just wish I had spent more of my single life in proper preparation. I may have been a better wife and mother over the past ten years if I had.
Click to expand...
This is sooooooo true.I am not sure how we can prepare girls for this, homeschool the girls maybe. Girls are more prone to problems with this then the men. Sometimes it just you’ve got the football and have to run with it. Feminism is hurting the boys.

Father Harvey has written a number of books. NARTH has published articles on gender narcissism. I am not sure if this has anything to do with this or with feminism but it does speak to a younger age and the psychological struggles we all face.

narth.com/docs/1996papers/schoenwolf.html
It’s not like I’m an addict trying to find excuses for his addiction. I am not addicted to masturbation.
Click to expand...
I would differ. I once was on a medication for a short period of time. I spoke to my friend and she asked why the doctor was changing the medication. I totally annoyed at the doctor said “I don’t know, I feel good. He says it’s addictive.”

She said “you’re already addicted.”
 
gam197 said:
**Quote:
It’s not like I’m an addict trying to find excuses for his addiction. I am not addicted to masturbation. **
I would differ. I once was on a medication for a short period of time. I spoke to my friend and she asked why the doctor was changing the medication. I totally annoyed at the doctor said “I don’t know, I feel good. He says it’s addictive.”

She said “you’re already addicted.”
Click to expand...
Then, by right every male should be addicited to Masturbation. Every person should be addicted to Chocolate, or rollercoaster rides even.
Addiction is someone who cannot stop his addiciotn even though he wishes (My very lay definition).
I cannot even remember the last time I masturbated, that’s how long ago it was.

I’m saying that there are definite benefits to it though.

It’s like saying:
“I like Whiskey.”
“Oh then, you must be addicted.”
“No, I just like the tase. and it thins the blood helping Cholesterol. In moderation Whiskey is good for you and tastes good.”

PM
 
PennitentMan said:
Then, by right every male should be addicited to Masturbation. Every person should be addicted to Chocolate, or rollercoaster rides even.
Addiction is someone who cannot stop his addiciotn even though he wishes (My very lay definition).
I cannot even remember the last time I masturbated, that’s how long ago it was.

I’m saying that there are definite benefits to it though.

It’s like saying:
“I like Whiskey.”
“Oh then, you must be addicted.”
“No, I just like the tase. and it thins the blood helping Cholesterol. In moderation Whiskey is good for you and tastes good.”

PM
Click to expand...
PM, your whiskey analogy may point out that whiskey is not always addictive much like masturbation however; it can not be analogous in terms of morality. Whiskey is not forbidden by the church, but masturbation is. It teaches that Alcohol in moderation can be ok, but masturbation is completely forbidden.
 
litllulu said:
PM, your whiskey analogy may point out that whiskey is not always addictive much like masturbation however; it can not be analogous in terms of morality. Whiskey is not forbidden by the church, but masturbation is. It teaches that Alcohol in moderation can be ok, but masturbation is completely forbidden.
Click to expand...
That is very true 🙂

I was just poiting out that not everything that feels good is automatically addictive from the first time you try it.

But you are right there.

And can I just add that even though on this thread I express some pretty un-catholic views, I do respect the Church’s teachigns on this topic.
So, even if I do not understand them, I abide by them.

PM
 
blessedtoo said:
May I take a crack at it?
Since you keep referring to teens, are you saying that in the case of the youngin’/adolescent whose spirituality is just being formed, simply reiterating that masturbation is wrong, and a sin, will not be helpful. If this is your position, I agree completely. I need only reflect back to my childhood to remember how painful it was to fall again and again into this sin and feel the tremendous guilt and isolation. My mother’s constant reminder of my sin was no help and niether was Father’s admonition in the Confessional to stop the dirty thoughts. But I think Church teaching can be presented in it’s fullness without allowing kids to think there might be a loophole through which they can slip.

However, when one reaches adulthood the spirituality and conscience should be formed enough to understand that this activity is selfish and harmful and that, with God’s grace, can be overcome.
Click to expand...
In many cultures it is unknown or at least very rare. In the West we have a sort of protracted adolescence where young people are exposed to the world but not sufficiently independent to have stable relationships open to life. That’s why we have all these sexual problems.
 
PennitentMan said:
Addiction is someone who cannot stop his addiciotn even though he wishes (My very lay definition).
I cannot even remember the last time I masturbated, that’s how long ago it was.

I’m saying that there are definite benefits to it though.

It’s like saying:
“I like Whiskey.”
“Oh then, you must be addicted.”
“No, I just like the tase. and it thins the blood helping Cholesterol. In moderation Whiskey is good for you and tastes good.”

PM
Click to expand...
No. It’s like saying “I can’t stop thinking about whiskey, imagining whiskey, fantasizing about how fabulous whiskey will make me feel, how it will solve all my problems.”
It’s the reason why addicts are still addicts even when they put down the drug. As long as you are addicted to the “idea” of something, anything being the solution to all your problems, than you have something to be concerned about.
 
I like what John Martignoni, a Catholic apologist on EWTN and on his website www.biblecatholicsociety.com has said about any form of sex outside of a VALID MARRIAGE. He lists three guidelines (as referenced in scripture) about licit sexual activity:
  1. The couple has left their parents behind for a life together.
  2. The couple makes the decision to cling to one another for life.
  3. The couple consumates the relationship (becomes one flesh).
Any sexual activity that does not include all three is a lie.
 
blessedtoo said:
No. It’s like saying “I can’t stop thinking about whiskey, imagining whiskey, fantasizing about how fabulous whiskey will make me feel, how it will solve all my problems.”
It’s the reason why addicts are still addicts even when they put down the drug. As long as you are addicted to the “idea” of something, anything being the solution to all your problems, than you have something to be concerned about.
Click to expand...
I don’t think anyone is saying that about masturbation.

The thread is about finding out the reasons why the Church teaches what she teaches on the subject, but we are not chomping at the bit to be able to do it.
It’s just to understand the teachings.
 
The line from article…
The choice is towards a narcissistic object which is readier at hand and easier to put into effect than movement towards the opposite sex" (1923, p. 233).
Click to expand...
I know little of this subject. I would add from personal experience that some of the things said to me such as “sex is good for you” “sex keeps you healthier”. I had a difficult time with these types of statements. Maybe if you write down what you are telling yourself.
 
fix said:
Great post.

2352 By *masturbation *is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. "Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action."138 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

As others have pointed out it is clear that it is an objective mortal sin always. Subjective culpability varies as is true with all sin. Why all the nuancing here? I think you stated it clearly. Our culture is preoccupied with things like this.
Click to expand...
Is this the correct quote from the catechism word for word?
 
wjp984 said:
Is this the correct quote from the catechism word for word?
Click to expand...
From scborromeo.org/ccc/para/2352.htm

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. *“Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.” *“The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of “the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved.”
To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

Why do you ask?

PS: as a sidenote, from this website:
religioustolerance.org/masturba10.htm

I found the following quite interesting:

A study by Giovanni Cappelli of the church’s stance on masturbation during the first millennium CE shows that:
  • The Bible is silent on the topic.
  • None of the Apostolic Fathers wrote about masturbation.
  • The first mention of masturbation within the Catholic Church is found in sixth century CE penitentials.
    These were books or a set of church rules concerning the sacrament of penance. They were first developed by priests as unofficial handbooks that gave standard penances for the most commonly confessed sins.
 
PennitentMan said:
PS: as a sidenote, from this website:
religioustolerance.org/masturba10.htm

I found the following quite interesting:

A study by Giovanni Cappelli of the church’s stance on masturbation during the first millennium CE shows that:
  • The Bible is silent on the topic.
  • None of the Apostolic Fathers wrote about masturbation.
  • The first mention of masturbation within the Catholic Church is found in sixth century CE penitentials.
    These were books or a set of church rules concerning the sacrament of penance. They were first developed by priests as unofficial handbooks that gave standard penances for the most commonly confessed sins.
Click to expand...
I would not accept their version of things. They have a left leaning agenda.
 
fix said:
I would not accept their version of things. They have a left leaning agenda.
Click to expand...
What we want to know is the absolute…seems like it just depends on whom you talk or confess to. CCC says disordered and grave in itself…but it’s that 3rd bullet point that puts the wrinkle in it…what makes one not have the ‘full intent’ that lessens or eliminates the severity? We need some examples from the Vat to help interpret this better. I think they do provide age and force of habit, but how does that apply to somebody? I’m guessing if a young teen happens upon it, it’s not sinful…how does one describe ‘force of habit?’ I was addicted to it years ago, but since I was, and I slip up, does ‘force of habit’ apply? I kind of have an issue similar to the Pen. Man, and it’s been very tough. I’ve been pure in that regard for a couple of years now. It can be done, but man…the temptation drives me insane…I know, eliminate all sources of temptation, but I can’t remove my wife!
 
ForwardProgress said:
What we want to know is the absolute…seems like it just depends on whom you talk or confess to. CCC says disordered and grave in itself…but it’s that 3rd bullet point that puts the wrinkle in it…what makes one not have the ‘full intent’ that lessens or eliminates the severity? We need some examples from the Vat to help interpret this better. I think they do provide age and force of habit, but how does that apply to somebody? I’m guessing if a young teen happens upon it, it’s not sinful…how does one describe ‘force of habit?’ I was addicted to it years ago, but since I was, and I slip up, does ‘force of habit’ apply? I kind of have an issue similar to the Pen. Man, and it’s been very tough. I’ve been pure in that regard for a couple of years now. It can be done, but man…the temptation drives me insane…I know, eliminate all sources of temptation, but I can’t remove my wife!
Click to expand...
Exactly, well said.

I’m meeting with another priest tonight, to discuss this exact topic.

There seems to be a lot of “grey area” in this particular teaching, and that is why I quoted that other website.

No matter if it’s left leaning or not, they are still the facts.

I get the feeling that most people (lay people and clergy) just want to ignore the topic without even addressing this, or if they do it’s “No, it’s always the worst of the worst sin”, with no thought of that grey area…hence so many of us on here…

I have been communicating with another priest a little while ago and he thanked me for my honestly when I explained the situation to him. He admitted that I showed him a side of marriage that he has never heard of before.
I think this is true for a lot of priests.

Now, let me add:
I have nothing but respect for all preists. The sacrifices they make and the work they do is amazing, may our Lord bless them all! I really love priests.
I think they should get more training on marriage councelling though. It seems to be an area where they lack knowledge or experience.
Lord bless 'em for the amazing work they do so tirelessly!

PM
 
I’m guessing if a young teen happens upon it, it’s not sinful…how does one describe ‘force of habit?’ I was addicted to it years ago, but since I was, and I slip up, does ‘force of habit’ apply? I kind of have an issue similar to the Pen. Man, and it’s been very tough. I’ve been pure in that regard for a couple of years now. It can be done, but man…the temptation drives me insane…I know, eliminate all sources of temptation, but I can’t remove my wife!
Click to expand...
In the case of teens who just “happen upon it”, I would question whether they fully understand the conditions that must be met for a mortal sin to occur and if they can comprehend the gravity of the offense. I also think it might be difficult for teens to fully understand the purpose of their sexuality when they are overwhelmed by hormones and cultural influences.

For adults who have formed their conciences and understand the purpose of our sexual faculties, I think it would be very difficult to minimize the culpability of engaging in this behavior. How could one embark on this practice with this knowledge and not be held accountable? The guilt factor alone would be a huge tip-off for me. I can’t imagine myself 'accidentally" or “automatically” slipping into this sin, knowing all that I know, without first assenting to it’s inherent sinfullness.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top