Masterbation uncertainty

[gam197]

I wish that the church never approved NFP. That if you were to make love, it better just be a go-for-it attitude and the results of the union may or may not follow.

The problem is she would not want this. It is her body that has to carry the child. It is her mind that has to trust in God.

I agree there is a major problem and the problem is trust in you and that you want what is best for her and the child and a trust in God. She has to feel that when she is using NFP God is watching out for her so she won’t get pregnant. She has to develop a confidence in that.

Next she has to learn that it is OK to submit, not only OK but commanded by Christ. Each and every time she submits, she is fulfilling a duty and in doing so, loving Christ. It’s not about her husband trying to get her involved or make it good so she will take part.Granted there are women who want that but many don’t. Others are simply trying to physically and psychologically survive.

Women do not understand men and that men love with their bodies. There is nothing wrong with that.

 

[blessedtoo]

This is getting me all worked up, but really, there is a bigger picture here. Why is everyone blind to this???

Then tell us what the bigger picture is. Based on all the posts you’ve made on CAF, the picture consistenty revolves around the fact that you feel your sexual needs are not being met and that there has to, must be, should be a way for the Church, and all us meany Catholics to understand this. If I am wrong, than I apologize. If I am wrong, then what is the big picture?

 

[PennitentMan]

then what is the big picture?

The bigger picture is that I have stumbled on a big problem withing catholic marraiges.
My problems shows me that there are many men who feel the same way I do, who love their wives, but their wives are not reciprocating in the marital embrace.
Confirmed to me here, on other boards and also by priests, many men have uninterested wifes, and as one priest said, the wives need to be educated to their duties and responsibilities as married women.

That is the big picture.
It’s not something that can be made to go away by telling the men to just accept it.
Yes, communication is the key, but what if they do not listen?

Honestly, I do not have the answers to this question.

 

[ForwardProgress]

That’s the big question…how do you ‘educate your wife’ on such matters without getting slapped in the face? In this day and age, if you try that, you come off as some kind of crazy person…my wife was talking about that just the other nite…

A friend of hers said her husband wanted relations often, and that she didn’t want to tell him no. My wife was like ‘you need to tell him no. if you don’t want to, you don’t have to. You do it only when you are ready to do it.’

This is the attitude of the majority of women today. Us men have to do everything at their beck and call…rub my feet, cut the grass, pressure wash the house, clean this, fix that, etc…but when it comes to expressing love physically in lovemaking, which is the ultimate expression of the marital union and what men so desire, they don’t return the favor.

My wife knows I love her by the things I do for her and her family and the sacrifices of my own free time. I know my wife’s love by the affection I get, which, like PM, is always a strain and full of rejection.

 

[blessedtoo]

The bigger picture is that I have stumbled on a big problem withing catholic marraiges.

This is not just a problem in Catholic marriages. All marriages suffer periods of lack of desire or flux in the frequency of marital relationships.

What problem? A lack of sexual desire is no stranger among us. It is the most common sexual condition in America—some 25 percent of us suffer from it. findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1175/is_5_35/ai_92136178

Confirmed to me here, on other boards and also by priests, many men have uninterested wifes, and as one priest said, the wives need to be educated to their duties and responsibilities as married women.

Rather than turn your frustration and anger at the Church for not allowing masturbation, you could be grateful that the Catholic Church may be the only one who truly understands that the spouses are obligated to give themselves to eachother with at least a modicum of frequency. Based on Forward’s post below, the evil of radical feminism has infiltrated and affected a wife’s view of the purpose of sex to the point where women advise eachother to “only do it when they feel like it.” I agree with both of you that this is selfish and very destructive to relationships. I am not saying a woman should be expected to drop everything the moment her husband says he is ready, but a truer understanding of the beauty of self-giving is needed here.

Yes, communication is the key, but what if they do not listen?

I’ve asked you several times, and you still won’t respond, if you have made it crystal clear to your wife that either something must change or you must both get some therapy. Have you told her this and if so, what’s the response? Have you done any research on the types of counseling available for Christian couples? Have you presented her with these options and told her plainly and clearly that her refusal to engage in discussion is making you extremely unhappy?

 

[blessedtoo]

This is the attitude of the majority of women today. Us men have to do everything at their beck and call…rub my feet, cut the grass, pressure wash the house, clean this, fix that, etc…but when it comes to expressing love physically in lovemaking, **which is the ultimate expression of the marital union and what men so desire, they don’t return the favor. **
My wife knows I love her by the things I do for her and her family and the sacrifices of my own free time. I know my wife’s love by the affection I get, which, like PM, is always a strain and full of rejection.

I agree that most women today are completely brainwashed into thinking their needs should come first. No argument here. However, is this a complete surprise to you? Had you no indication that your wife had so little understanding of her role as a spouse?

I would gently suggest that you may be overstating the importance of sex as the “ultimate expression of the marital union”. While it is important, I can think of a few expressions that may be more important. As Catholics, we are obligated to assist our spouses in attaining eternal life in heaven. We are obligated to work together for that good. We express our union in our parenting, in the ways we support eachother through each day. If you look at the hours in a day, you spend more time (and hopefully your wife does as well) working, taking care of household chores, cooking, cleaning, tending to children, talking to eachother, enjoying outside activities, etc. Engaging in sexual relations adds up to maybe 1% of the activities you do each day. Why would you place so much less emphasis on the things you spend more time, energy, and thought on?

 

[PennitentMan]

I’ve asked you several times, and you still won’t respond, if you have made it crystal clear to your wife that either something must change or you must both get some therapy. Have you told her this and if so, what’s the response?

Yes I have.
Many times. Her response varied, depending on when we have these discussions. Sometimes its: There is no problem, it’s perfectly normal to feel like I do,
Other times she agreet o go to councelling, but thgen backed down again.
We had yet another talk last night and I dare say that this talk was a bit better.
she agreed that it’s a problem and we have put a few beginner steps in place to get make things better. She was more suseptible last night than other nights.
I’m going to be trying my best to keep this momentum up and see if this gets better.

We have spoken about it so many times, but last night was more promising.

PM

 

[gam197]

originally posted by** blessedtoo**
I am not saying a woman should be expected to drop everything the moment her husband says he is ready,

Sometimes that is the time when kids aren’t around. If you don’t cook the supper as well, do you think he really cares?

I am not saying men are not failing in many aspects and it can throw the woman for a loop.

Where would women get the idea that you don’t have to if you don’t feel like it? I believe that is why the word submission was put in the marriage vows?

I believe Christ calls women to submission.That not to submit is a sin. I have never read “Theology of the body” so I am unaware of what they teach on this.

 

[Delphinus85]

wow, that was moderately offensive…

Women aren’t here to serve men sexually, I rather think that is the whole point of NFP!!!

Men should respect their wives. Sometimes they really AREN’T in the mood. They are sick, they are tired, they are really not feeling up to it. Men feel like that from time to time too!!

Now scripture DOES say not to deprive one another, unless for prayer and by MUTUAL consent to commit yourselves to prayer, but you have to come together again after that time. Men NEED to respect women and not expect her to put out whenever he wants it, but women also need to realize men have higher sex drives and want it a little more than she might. He can also do more to get her in the mood. Be romantic, MAKE HER FEEL SEXY. There isn’t a woman in the world I know of who would turn down sex if her man is making her feel like the most gorgeous babe on the planet.

However, there are times when the woman may be feeling REALLY not in the mood, and she has been for a while and sexual lives aren’t meshing. Sex should NEVER be a chore. If someone isn’t in the mood, there is a reason. Think of newlyweds (which is what I am soon to be) they are ALWAYS in the mood. Try to find that and recapture it, rather than saying your woman isn’t being “submissive to my sexual needs”

 

[ForwardProgress]

wow, that was moderately offensive…

Women aren’t here to serve men sexually, I rather think that is the whole point of NFP!!!

Men should respect their wives. Sometimes they really AREN’T in the mood. They are sick, they are tired, they are really not feeling up to it. Men feel like that from time to time too!!

Now scripture DOES say not to deprive one another, unless for prayer and by MUTUAL consent to commit yourselves to prayer, but you have to come together again after that time. Men NEED to respect women and not expect her to put out whenever he wants it, but women also need to realize men have higher sex drives and want it a little more than she might. He can also do more to get her in the mood. Be romantic, MAKE HER FEEL SEXY. There isn’t a woman in the world I know of who would turn down sex if her man is making her feel like the most gorgeous babe on the planet.

However, there are times when the woman may be feeling REALLY not in the mood, and she has been for a while and sexual lives aren’t meshing. Sex should NEVER be a chore. If someone isn’t in the mood, there is a reason. Think of newlyweds (which is what I am soon to be) they are ALWAYS in the mood. Try to find that and recapture it, rather than saying your woman isn’t being “submissive to my sexual needs”

Sorry! Thanks for playing! You have no idea…you have not been married and you do not have kids. Do not speak as if you know this subject from experience!! I truly wish the best for you in your upcoming marriage, however!

‘Make her feel sexy…there isn’t a woman in the world that would turn down sex’…works for you, maybe but not for everyone!
Definately not for us! My wife wants no part in nice underthings, sexy music, sexy comments (she thinks I am just saying them, not that they are the truth) etc…

I think I need to stay off these forums. I am starting to realize how much I talk about, and I should deal with things myself. I know this is all anonymous and all, but my wife probably would not like me discussing this stuff with strangers. I have nowhere else to turn to vent.

 

[PennitentMan]

He can also do more to get her in the mood. Be romantic, MAKE HER FEEL SEXY. There isn’t a woman in the world I know of who would turn down sex if her man is making her feel like the most gorgeous babe on the planet.

However, there are times when the woman may be feeling REALLY not in the mood, and she has been for a while and sexual lives aren’t meshing. Sex should NEVER be a chore. If someone isn’t in the mood, there is a reason. Think of newlyweds (which is what I am soon to be) they are ALWAYS in the mood. Try to find that and recapture it, rather than saying your woman isn’t being “submissive to my sexual needs”

We are way beyond that in this thread.

This thread is at the point where the husbands are doing everything they can and the wifes are not interested. Romantic, making her feel sexy, loved, wanted, needed has all been tried.

Sure, men should not force themselves on their wifes, we should respect them, of course, but there comes a point when a wife has to realise that she *is *neglecting her husband and her marital duties.

PM

 

[PennitentMan]

I know this is all anonymous and all, but my wife probably would not like me discussing this stuff with strangers. I have nowhere else to turn to vent.

I feel exactly the same as you do, and I had this same thought last night.

I should cut back here…

 

[gam197]

Sex should NEVER be a chore.

I think I’ve said enough too.

I think you are misinterpreting submissive.

Submissive implies that the female loves her husband. It is not a chore.It is not about serving someone else’s sexual needs… It is not about putting out.
It is about loving that person and in doing so bending or suppressing your feelings to accommodate his.

 

[litllulu]

That’s right. Jesus said to pick up your cross and follow Him.

C’mon guys. Shouldn’t we try to salvage our marriages when they are on the rocks? Does Jesus really want us to suck it up? OR maybe He really wants us to fix what is broken.

 

[blessedtoo]

I think I need to stay off these forums.

I should cut back here…

Wait, Wait! PM and Forward, don’t get discouraged about this:

Women aren’t here to serve men sexually

That’s not where I am coming from and I’ll address that silliness in another post. But I’m terribly encouraged by this:

she agreed that it’s a problem and we have put a few beginner steps in place to get make things better. She was more suseptible last night than other nights.
I’m going to be trying my best to keep this momentum up and see if this gets better.

We have spoken about it so many times, but last night was more promising.

PM, I think that’s wonderful news! May I suggest you “strike while the iron is hot” and just go ahead and make an appointment to speak to a counselor. Perhaps if you make a plan, present it as something that’s already a done deal, she will be less tempted to rationalize her way out of it. And if you do all the leg work to get a counselor in place, it may illustrate to her how serious the situation is. I am going to keep you and your wife in my prayers tonight.

And you too, Forward!

 

[blessedtoo]

Women aren’t here to serve men sexually, I rather think that is the whole point of NFP!!!

Maybe you should go back to post one and start reading from there.

Men should respect their wives.

This discussion has nothing to do with respect. In fact, I would venture a guess that the husbands on this thread not only respect their wives, but acquiesce a little too much to them

Sometimes they really AREN’T in the mood.

And sometimes it’s not about your “mood”, or your “feelings” or your exhaustion or your everything else. Sometimes, in marriage, it is about the other - it is about self-giving. It is about the joy of loving when you don’t necessarily “feel” like it.

He can also do more to get her in the mood. Be romantic, MAKE HER FEEL SEXY. There isn’t a woman in the world I know of who would turn down sex if her man is making her feel like the most gorgeous babe on the planet.

Since I doubt you know all the women in the world, I think that’s a gross generalization. There are many women who, despite the loving overtures of their husbands, do not understand that it’s not always all about them and their needs. If you take a quick glance back at this thread, you will see that romancing the wife isn’t cutting it in these cases. Your theory falls flat for a variety of reasons.

Sex should NEVER be a chore.

Wow! That line comes right from Feminism 101! The word “chore” shouldn’t even be used within the context of Catholic sexuality in marriage. How about self-giving? Selflessness? Responsibility? Any woman who would associate the word “chore” with sex has clearly been indoctrinated by feminist rhetoric.

If someone isn’t in the mood, there is a reason.

What if there is no end to the reasons? What if the primary reason is selfishness? What is a spouse to do about that?

Think of newlyweds (which is what I am soon to be) they are ALWAYS in the mood. Try to find that and recapture it, rather than saying your woman isn’t being “submissive to my sexual needs”

Come back and visit us in three years! Looking forward to your posts then!

 

[wornwheel]

I like to think of marriage as a relationship of Devotion. When people are truly devoted to each other there really is very little that they won’t do for their partner (not just sexually). They are each giving 100% to each other. It is sad when one is devoted and there is not devotion in return. It is sad when neither party is devoted. It is absolutely beautiful when two people are fully devoted to each other. That is a rare thing.

The point I wanted to make is that I believe a lack of sex in marriage and the resulting struggles with masturbation are frequently symptoms of a deeper issue, a lack of devotion from one or both partners. I do not mean to imply that the partner who is refusing sex is the one who is not devoted. It can be that the one seeking sex does not see, listen or really hear their spouse. I think these deeper issues should really be the priority.

I see many stiff, barren relationships, people keeping score 50 / 50, men demanding sex, women withholding sex, etc… My judgment is that there isn’t devotion when this happens. None of this is to say that the struggles around the issue of masturbation are not important or can be dismissed. It’s just that sometimes it would seem there are bigger fish to fry.

Sadly, I think the Churches’ teachings on masturbation, when interpreted in strict form, can lead to a misunderstanding of the sacrament of marriage. How so? If a young person has too much pent up sexual energy, they may be lead into marriage for the wrong reasons and with the wrong partner. Unhealthy levels of sexual energy can lead one to turn the desired marriage partner into an object, a “thing” to obtain so that one can have someplace for “legitimate” sexual relief.

I do not believe marriage should be about our personal sexual relief. If that is what drives us into marriage then I think few will find a truly devoted relationship.

 

[wornwheel]

I’m grateful for my exposure to this forum as it has led me to study the Catechism on a deeper level. After praying about this issue of masturbation, studying the Catechism, reading these forums, talking to priests, my view is that Masturbation is a subjectively sinful act. That’s not the teaching of the Church, which says it is an objectively sinful act. Many would claim that my conclusion is a sign of a lack of obedience, or a sign of an addiction to masturbation, or a result of the cultural trend toward situational ethics. What ever the reason, it is what my moral conscience and life experience tells me is correct.

The Catechism says: (1782)

Man has the right to act in conscience and in freedom so as personally to make moral decisions. ‘He must not be forced to act contrary to his conscience. Nor must he be prevented from acting according to his conscience, especially in religious matters.’

Of course, the Catechism also says (2039)

Personal conscience and reason should not be set in opposition to the moral law or the Magisterium of the Church.

So the Church is telling me that I must not be prevented from acting according to my personal conscience and at the same time that I must not place my personal conscience in opposition to the Magisterium. This presents a moral dilemma for me.

I do endeavor to follow the Magisterium of the Church. However, at this point in time I can not reconcile my moral conscience with the Magisterium of the Church and choose to remain true to what I believe is right.

I had a dream last week. The night before I had that dream, I had asked Pope John Paul II to come to me in my sleep and explain how this moral teaching of the church can be valid in light of the suffering that I see created in the world through this teaching. The Pope did appear to me. He instructed me to not be concerned with these questions of sin. Rather, I should put my focus on living in union with God. He seemed to pull a Gold shaped paper ring off of a scapular and placed it on his finger. He said that through his practice and devotion to a life a prayer his ring was changed from paper to Gold and suggested I could do the same. He showed me the ring again and it had been transformed.

I do remain open to the possibility that I am misguided in my beliefs. I believe the Church may also be misguided in some of its moral theology. And, so I pray for my understanding and I pray for the Church as well. Following the directive from my dream I think it is time for me to leave behind these issues of whether masturbation is sinful and how sinful. I will follow my conscience with my eyes turned toward God. I can walk toward heaven face forward toward the light, or I can walk facing behind, staring back at sin. I’ll take the light and love.

Peace,
WornWheel

 

[blessedrosary]

I think the answer to the question about the sin of masturbation lies in our hearts. Why do people try to battle such things by attempting to satiate their intellectual understanding of certain matters?

You compare the (-false-) fulfillment of your sexual desire with other natural desires. For example, do you feel guilt after you eat food or drink water or breathe ‘air’? I suppose you do not considering that you have not made a thread about it. Do you feel guilt after masturbation, or do you ask because you know the Church’s teaching on the issue? Regardless, i would also assume that even if guilt does not arise from your heart, it comes from your belief that the Church has some authority- or no? If you feel no guilt do not ask about the issue- but PRAY and form your conscience. I would say do not ask why, but what. You know what the Church teaches, if you do not believe than follow your conscience. However, if your conscience has told you authoritatively that masturbation is not wrong and you have no qualms with it, then i do not understand why you would inquire about this. Attempt to follow what the Church teaches, and you will find joy in Christ. Develop a love for our Lady and you will develop a love for purity. Develop a love for our Lord’s suffering and you will develop an acceptance that you do not need to satisfy your sexual cravings illicitly. Overall follow your conscience so that you will be lead to peace. Do not ask questions such as this so that you can intellectually overrule your conscience and hopefully form it in falsehood.

By the way, even if you believe it to be a sin and continue… say through ‘addiction’ you can at least repent and ask for forgiveness. If you refuse to admit that it is sinful than you also cannot repent, because it would be asanine to ask for mercy for doing something that is just and legitimate. Therefore, if it IS wrong and you acknowledge that, you can be fogiven, provided you are contrite. If it is not wrong and and you think it is… what do you lose? Not much really if you continue to indulge in it. If it is wrong and you think it not to be then the obstinate ways may not be beneficial for you.

 

[CatholicMC]

I was told by a priest long ago (when I was about your age):

“Masturbation is like picking your nose. Just don’t do it in public.”

Of course, there are many others who will tell you it is a disordered practice and hence, a sin. I don’t agree - but then, I’m no longer Catholic either.

With advice like that I can see why.