Masturbation and too much Confession?

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mjs1987 said:
When dealing with masturbation, it is so prevalent today that the exceptions are the rule. The temptations make for it to be easier to acquire the habit and many that do it do it habitually. It is the acquisition of habit with the culture of sex that we are in that are the extenuating circumstances that the catechism mentions that make masturbation for most people to not be a grave sin.
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No! Those are not the extenuating circumstances being referred to. Temptation, no matter how massive, is not synonymous with extenuating circumstances. And “the- culture-of-sex”-made-me-do-it" is just as non-theological as “the devil made me do it.” This is not the sense of the document whatsoever. Otherwise, thousands of current, contemporary examinations of conscience would dismiss the act, would not mention the act, would classify it as venial, or would go into a long dissertation about it. But virtually every Catholic examination of conscience out there specifically mentions masturbation as mortal sin.

You have it exactly opposite, and what troubles me once again is that these M discussions on CAF always, always devolve into giant rationalizations about what one poster here, with rare honesty in these discussions, called one of the sins we have great affection for. Thus, the OP ends up being led down the garden path (you know, the Eden one), devil happily accompanying the exquisite manipulation of words & abstractions in place of truth, and many others come on board (or lurk), and similarly become confirmed in their sin.

The entire point about pornography is not that it reduces the culpability. Quite the opposite. I can see that there are some posters here who apparently never listen, ever, to a single priest, formally or informally. You can barely read any Catholic material, listen to a priest on the radio, etc., and not encounter the common observation among priests that “pornography [with male masturbation in particular] is the most frequently confessed sin today.” Notice they didn’t say that pornography is the most frequently confessed temptation. Strictly speaking, we don’t confess, or need to, temptation. We confess activity or consent. Not a single person who views pornography in print or online was forced to do so. You booted that computer (and unless your computer is infected with pop-up porn), navigated to a particular site, feasted your eyes, and then blamed the computer or “the culture.” Those are activities involving the will. Those are seeking out what all catechisms have always called “the near occasions of sin.” Pornography with masturbation is sinning twice. It is compounding sin upon sin, because the third factor (sin) is that in doing so “you” are opening yourself up to a cycle. But don’t you dare call the addiction out of your control, because you created the addictive circumstances, and you reinforce that addiction every time you choose the temptation. So the sinner has put himself in a triply grave cycle of sin. Not “the culture.”

Or, if you have neither the opportunity nor the brazenness to seek it on a computer, your pornography of choice is men’s sleazy magazines.

The culture does not excuse; the culture requires vigilance. You are not children. Most adults, if they have cable TV, similarly have to be vigilant about channel surfing. I block virtually all channels (I have a password requiring me to (name removed by moderator)ut it every time I change the channel). If you have a Cable subscription, you can virtually have free soft or hard core porn on your TV set, unless you’re careful. So I don’t (name removed by moderator)ut my password unless I know the channel is harmless. Usually there’s a menu indicator at the base of the screen showing the channel, such as an HBO “adult entertainment” (or some other descriptor). If it has the adult descriptor I don’t click on it. I don’t want to be tempted or disgusted. I don’t want garbage in my home, so I don’t invite it in. And if I didn’t have the password, nobody would be forcing me to turn on the TV in the first place, or go to particular channels. There are also threads on CAF which are more explicit than others (for example, an indication in the title), and I specifically avoid those. Everybody knows what are occasions of sin for them. Everybody.

What some frequent posters are stating here is faulty theology, period. The CCC is partly a pastoral document as well as an intellectual one. It includes possible exceptions to rules in order to guide priests, so that priests may be in a position to use their judgment in particular cases, when those exceptions do fit. Exceptions mean minority, not majority (“60-80%”).

Sixty to eight to 100 percent of men, and women, lie, cheat, steal, sin against the 6th commandment, commit calumny or detraction, are guilty of envy, gluttony, excessive anger, profane the name of God, etc. Wow. What a news flash. Sin abounds. That’s why there was a Savior and a Passion and why we’re now observing Lent.

As to “most people going to Hell,” do you think most people die immediately after they masturbate?

Actually, at Fatima our Lady did say that more people end up in Hell over sins of the flesh than for any other category of sin. She didn’t say most people merely struggle with the temptation or the “venial” or the “extenuating circumstances” of sins of the flesh. She was acknowledging, even then, that back before media overload, the prevalence to indulge temptation instead of being vigilant and prayerful against it, was a dangerous trend. The devil loves to dwell in sins of the flesh, because of the physical comfort level these produce, and clearly he’s having a field day here. Rationalization is his high art.

Women are subject to temptation just like men. But for some reason men feel that physical urges are equivalent to commands, and that therefore that absolves them of responsibility. Wrong. Because, you see, women feel that verbal urges are also commands, and many of us fight daily against these tempting (devil-assisted) commands which are just as powerful to many women as physical urges are to many men.
 
mjs1987 said:
Where does it say “viewing pornography” is a grave offense, in those exact words? It doesnt say it in those exact words. Pornography is a mortal sin, there should be no doubt left at all to whether it is or not mortal. The definition is very vague about what constitutes pornography and only mentions viewers as victims of pornography. It simply says what it is and that it is grave matter. It doesnt define in clear language when it is a sin and for who. If we are to take the mention of the word pornography to mean all instances, then it should say it, dont you think? The stakes are heaven and hell. There should be a list clearly stated of which sins are mortal and which are not. No complicated theological justifications or exceptions that are unclearly worded and explained like the culpability part of masturbation. If the church actually posted a list of which sins are mortal and which are venial instead of using criteria for mortal and venial it would make it a lot simpler and would leave priests that are in error out of leading people into error. Why does the church not spell it out in clear language? It would seem that with souls at stake this would be a high priority.
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It does cover all the bases “actors, vendors, the public”.

Actors - it is sinful to those who act or pose in the porn.

Vendors - this covers those involved in the business end, writers, producers, lighting techs, storekeepers.

The Public - that includes, well, everyone.

It is a grave offense to everyone. Pornography is so grave that it harms even those who do not make it, profit from it or view it. It damages the very fabric of society.
 
[This is mostly cut-and-pasted from my post on another thread. Apologies to those who have seen it before. Feel free to skip over.]

I was a victim of this and other impure behaviors for many years. I was able to justify it to myself on so many grounds: medical issues, problems in my marriage (including my wife not being willing or medically able for most of our married years, including the first seven and the last seven or more), and resentment against and criticism of the Church.

As I read more and more on the subject, I began to realize that my behavior had many negative consequences. Even though I was able to get most of my impure material for free, I began to accept that my consumption of pornography was not victimless – it violated the 9th Commandment and many other calls to purity in the Bible, degraded the women portrayed and added profits and popularity to evil people, websites, and magazines. So I stopped buying or viewing porn.

Next, I realized that my remaining level of impure activities was still poisoning my relationship with God and my relationship with my wife. I thought I would NEVER be able to eliminate this behavior until I decided to follow the advice in the book “Every Man’s Battle.” One of their principal points is that yes, there are physical needs and pressures, but we also CREATE psychological needs and pressures by the images we let into our heads. After I made a commitment to turn away from the culturally-approved sources of sensuality (suggestive TV shows, sexy magazine ads, catalogs, and even taking second looks at women on the street), I found that what I thought were “irresistible physical pressures” decreased. Although it is a temptation I still have to resist, I actually am enjoying the benefits and freedom of having a better relationship with God and not having to hide my impure behaviors.

So, although I might still have some lingering intellectual doubts about the absolute authority of the Church in this area of morals, I have no doubt that for most people, masturbation interferes with having a holy and peaceful life, so calling it “sin” is fine by me. I even was willing to accept some persistent level of this sin in my life for a long time, until I found that I was able to eliminate this supposedly irresistible temptation.

If anyone wants to find a community of men who have kicked this habit and are happier for it, check out the link to the Impurity Addiction Support Group in my sig.

Praying for us all,
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The Catechism tells us what is grave matter. It does not tell us what is mortal sin. It is reasonable to conclude that if you know something is grave matter and still choose to do it that you are in a state of mortal sin. However, there are situations that can alter your culpability, and that is precisely why we have the Church and why we have priests who will not only provide us with absolution in confession, but who will offer us counsel with regards to our own personal and unique situation. If you are constantly going to the same priest for confession, you can ask him if you need to seek confession each and every time or if there is some circumstance in your particular situation which lessens your culpability. A forum really is not the place to learn whether you are or are not in mortal sin. Your regular confessor is the person in a position to assess this.
 
copeland45 said:
Because I struggle with masturbation (like most healthy men) I find myself needing to go to Confession every three to five days.

Question: am I mistaken in thinking that this is a mortal sin? Am I being overly scrupulous?

Everyone’s response is usually “talk to your priest and ask him” Problem is, I’ve had two priests tell me it’s not mortal, and two tell me it is. Do I go for best of five?

I wish the Church would remove the nebulous language from the Catechism on this topic, and the Magisterium would make a definitive statement for all time on whether masturbation is a mortal sin (once you’ve reached the age of sexual/emotional maturity…probably around 18 yrs of age).

As to the details of my own situation, I don’t use pornography, only imagine my wife (she currently cannot have sex), and I’m actively trying to decrease the frequency with which I do this. I’ve tried praying to God to remove ALL urge to do this, but my body is telling me physically --not even sexually-- that it’s bad for me not to do this at least once a week. Science seems to agree. Am I really committing a mortal sin? Whenever I go for days at a time without masturbating, I’m so distracted by the urge that I can’t even pray or read scripture effectively.
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Masturbation is a sin of grave matter… so to do it willingly and with full knowledge is indeed a mortal sin. I emphasize with you on the fact that it is indeed a hard habit to break and that us men do indeed go through much trials & temptations with regard to sexual issues like this (being sexual beings with fallen natures). However the Church’s teaching on this is pretty clear… it follows therefore that we can break free from this sin with the help of God’s grace. How? By praying & discipling ourselves and by constantly admitting that we are helpless i.e. that we need the grace of God. “With men this is impossible; but with God all **things are possible” **Matthew 19:26. I will keep you in prayer friend… truly I tell you with God’s grace you will be free!

Being a science student I question your assertion that science seems to say that masturbation is not bad. Science ***does not ***have authority on moral issues because it is not concerned with moral questions.

Your brother in Christ,
Zachary
 
I have read some of the posts here, not all, because I really cannot deal with the theme.

Basically, what I see here is that there seems to be a couple of posters, including the OP, who are trying with their whole strength to rationalize their sins.

Masturbation is a mortal sin. Pornography is a mortal sin. Yes, there can be circumstances where an individual may not be fully culpable, but, IMHO, only those who lack maturity (some teenagers and adults who suffer from arrested development) can apply that to themselves.

Far too many adults like their sins so much that they seek any tiny loophole to continue in their sinfulness.

Do you really want to spend eternity in Hell just because you will not fight with all your strength through prayer and the sacraments and avoiding all those occasions of sin that have overpowered you before?

You have temptations? Go chop some wood, or fix something that is broken, or study math - anything to take your mind away from what is tempting you. But stop looking for the loopholes - they are black holes straight to mortal sin.
 
Joan, I think you’re right to say stop looking for loopholes, but wrong on some other points. If this is a struggle since adolescence (and it is for a great many men and I don’t think this is some kind of recent thing created by a world of pay per view and Internet porn, though that surely as exacerbated the problem) then surely the habitual nature at a young age prevented true maturity in this important segment of life.

Now, that being said, there’s no reason one should ever start thinking “well, since I’ve struggled for a long time, I’m not as culpable so it’s not a huge deal.” Leave that discretion up to God and treat the sin for what it is - serious matter. Whether a specific instance is a mortal sin or not is of no difference to temporal efforts to purge the sin from oneself.

So while I’d argue that beating yourself up over slipping in a habitual sin is probably counterproductive, not taking it seriously is even worse. Get to confession. Make a plan to avoid temptation. Pray often. And if you slip, admonish yourself and repeat the process. Don’t become obsessed over falling to the point where you become ashamed to go to confession or despair that you’ll never be rid of the habit, but don’t look for the loopholes either.
 
^ Correct. So, instead of spending time on a discussion forum obtaining gleeful confirmation of one’s entrenched sins as merely excusable habits with only partial responsibility, the better use of time for those afflicted is to be praying, seeking authoritative counsel, and visiting the sacraments. That’s what Joan, I, and several others are saying. The point is that when the focus is the supposed unconsciousness of it versus the deliberate nature of (any) act, the actor is orienting himself toward excuses, not orientating himself toward transformation. There’s no intellectual debate. It’s a sin. Over. Out. Objectively and on its face. Because you’ve done something for a long time does not mean that your sin is lighter; it means that your sin is chronic, toxic, and has potentially invaded your mind as well as your soul, to the point where it has become insidious enough to be an integral part of your daily, routine behavior. It’s your way of life. Not something to be proud of, frankly, whenever it began.

The reason I feel so strongly about this is that over the past few years I have begun to uncover (different) tendencies in myself that were becoming chronic, so chronic that I was not even conscious of them, let alone conscious of them being sinful. That’s what chronic sin does. It dulls our sensitivity to sin. It dulls our consciousness. It clouds our awareness. It dims our vision. And all those conditions are fertile soil for the devil to invade and become very comfortable. Then it becomes automatic for us to rationalize that particular sin, and many others.

True extreme immaturity (usually co-existent with chronological immaturity), true mental problems, true mental insufficiency (such as cognitive deficits), and true psychological compulsions (as opposed to habits – there’s an important distinction between those two) lessen and even obviate one’s culpability for particular sins. But those kinds of discernments are appropriated to a priest in a confessional, not to random lay opinions on a discussion forum, opinions which frankly are inaccurately and much too liberally interpreting passages in the CCC. The vast majority of sin, for the vast majority of sinners, including probably 99+% of CAF users, does not rise to the level of the exceptions that are being theorized here.

Lent is a time to discern and not excuse. It’s offensive to the very idea of the Passion.
 
mjs1987 said:
Very few go to confession to confess this sin yet studies have shown that 60 to as high as 80% of the general population do it regularly.
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The statistic would be higher if you were to include those who purposely or incidentally increase the urge of ejaculation in others, such as wearing certain clothes (or lack of them) or saying certain things or acting in a certain way. Yet, you see very few at the confession lines and so many taking communion. And we haven’t even started discussing gossipping, coveting, hating, lying, malicious attacks against others, etc.
 
copeland45 said:
Because I struggle with masturbation (like most healthy men) I find myself needing to go to Confession every three to five days.

Question: am I mistaken in thinking that this is a mortal sin? Am I being overly scrupulous?

Everyone’s response is usually “talk to your priest and ask him” Problem is, I’ve had two priests tell me it’s not mortal, and two tell me it is. Do I go for best of five?

I wish the Church would remove the nebulous language from the Catechism on this topic, and the Magisterium would make a definitive statement for all time on whether masturbation is a mortal sin (once you’ve reached the age of sexual/emotional maturity…probably around 18 yrs of age).

As to the details of my own situation, I don’t use pornography, only imagine my wife (she currently cannot have sex), and I’m actively trying to decrease the frequency with which I do this. I’ve tried praying to God to remove ALL urge to do this, but my body is telling me physically --not even sexually-- that it’s bad for me not to do this at least once a week. Science seems to agree. Am I really committing a mortal sin? Whenever I go for days at a time without masturbating, I’m so distracted by the urge that I can’t even pray or read scripture effectively.
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***Do you believe that “struggling with masturbation” and “most healthy men” belong in the same sentence? It seems to me that they are mutually exclusive and the “struggling” aspect instead points to “unhealthful” behavior. Catholicism is cut and dried: either quit masturbating completely and divert your sexual tensions into helping others, or indulge in masturbation with the steadfast belief that it is healthful, normal, and not sinful. Who on this forum is going to contradict that?

Limerick***
 
What your priest may be meaning to convey to you is that culpability plays a role once someone is tainted by sin that is addictive. Any kind of sexual stimulation that becomes addictive has no bearing on whether or not its grave matter. Is raping woman sinful if you can’t stop doing it? How much to you love Christ? He allowed himself to be slaughtered, skin ripped from his body, nails driven through his limbs, thorns shoved in his head. Next time you think about masturbating think about the blood pouring from the body of Jesus who loves you so much he died for you so that you might have life and have it more abundantly. You must learn to cooperate with God’s grace restored to you in confession. You need to get rid of any stimulus that causes the near occasion of sin. You must train your mind to mentally place yourself on your knees at the foot of the cross on Calvary each time you are tempted. I’d suggest wearing one of the larger scapulars and remember that the Saints and Angels also see you. One day we will all see your sin, as we will see each others sin. How embarrassing that must be even now to know who’s watching you and saddened. Don’t you realize you have a guardian angel that must be lput out with you by now, praying for you to learn, own up to your addictive behavior.

Just giving you material to think about the next time you think you’re going to carelessly…well lets say willfully sin. You have to do something to hellp yourself avoid it. Carry a rosary with you, begin daily prayer “Liturgy of the Hours”. You have to make willful steps away from sin to meet what “metanoia” to turn away. Those that know Greek know what I mean. True repentance is literally turning away from sin. If I were the priest I would be inclined to tell you not to return unless you are truly resentful. But then again, I’m not a priest and I don’t know what he knows. keep sacramentals around you constantly and on your person at ALL times. They help remind us to fight. Place yourself before Christ is the main thing. Go to Calvary with Christ and keep Him company while you join in His suffering.
 
May I offer some thoughts on this matter?

I used to do this sin regularly from my early teens until my mid thirties. I just as regularly attended confessions about the matter. It became a never ending cycle of sin then confession then - no matter how good my intentions were - I sinned again. Then I left it so that I was attending confessions once per month because in my heart I felt that somehow I was devaluing the confessional by attending every week with the same sins.

I don’t have the same urges now and I no longer fall to that temptation any more because I did three simple but powerful things. I will share them with you:
  1. Stop worrying about it. When something is an issue - it is always in your mind. If it is always in your mind it is harder to fight. When you stop worrying - the issue becomes less relevant. When it becomes less relevant - you don’t think about it so much. Believe it or not - you will stop doing this thing through its lack of importance in your life. At the moment - it is important because your mind is making you think it is important. God loves you - flaws and all.
  2. Live in the moment. Take one day at a time. Like any addiction just try to live in the moment. Live in the here and now. Don’t plan for tomorrow because that’s not here yet. You never know what will happen tomorrow that might set you back. Don’t worry about yesterday - that’s gone. It is history. Live in the present. Think in the present. What you see is what you see. What you hear is what you hear and so forth.
… Finally and most important of all:
  1. **Believe in the mercy of Jesus. ** It is a greater sin not to believe in the unfathomable mercy of Jesus Christ. Jesus will help you, my friend. He always helps me. Just ask Him and believe.
Live your life and be the fantastic person that God wants you to be because there are more important things to think about.
 
First, masturbation along with pornography are mortal sins. It all comes down to lust. Both lead us down the path of lust. “But I say to you, that whosoever shall look on a woman to lust after her, hath already committed adultery with her in his heart. And if thy right eye scandalize thee, pluck it out and cast it from thee. For it is expedient for thee that one of thy members should perish, rather than that thy whole body be cast into hell.” So masturbation & pornography lead to adultry in the heart, which according to Christ, breaks the 6th commandment.

Also, as with any sin, we can become a slave to the sin. “Let no sin therefore reign in your mortal body, so as to obey the lusts thereof.” (Romans 6:12) And when we become a slave to a sin, we tend to defend & rationalize the sin.

I know for myself, daily prayer of the Rosary along with the Divine Mercy Chaplet help tremendously. Almost like clockwork, a day I skip these prayers, the devil gets the best of me. I also believe, like a prior post, in the prayer of St. Michael the Archangel. But be ready for an onslaught from the devil. These prayers are powerful & the devil does not want to lose his grip on us. All we have to do is make a commitment to prayer & persevere in our struggle. Plus, we can never give up hope. By the grace of God, we can overcome any sin with Christ.
 
MJS,

I respectfully submit that you are losing the forest for the trees. Take a step back.

Instead of looking into the niceties of whether any given act of impurity is mortal - for you or anyone else - instead think about risk assessment.

As others have eloquently pointed out the Church says that masturbation is gravely wrong. Grave matter is the first condition for mortal sin. Attempting to find any definitive list of mortal sins will fail, because the act itself is not enough to establish that the sin is mortal. Instead you need grave matter plus knowledge and consent.

You know this, but you have concentrated on what is knowledge and consent in determining whether masturbation is a mortal sin generally or for you or for others. Concentrating on this is going to leave you confused and further might give you a potential excuse to keep doing it.

Look at it this way instead: Masturbation could be a mortal sin for you - or for anyone who engages in it. NO ONE, not you, and not not even your confessor, knows the true state of your soul prior to a valid confession - only God does.

Let’s say for the sake of argument that there is a 0.001% chance you are in a state of mortal sin after masturbating. Are you willing to risk burning in Hell for all eternity and losing eternal peace - even at such a low percentage? I’d say that its folly to think that way. Where the risk and the reward are infinite then no risk of mortal sin is worth the temporary pleasure or release you derive from masturbating.

Therefore, the safe course of action is to assume that masturbating is a mortal sin - regardless of subjective circumstances - and to proceed to confession ASAP accordingly.

And just in case you think that masturbating won’t earn a soul eternal Hell, look also at St. John Bosco’s visions. todayscatholicworld.com/bosco_hell.htm They will scare you to purity. Note that impurity and disobedience go hand in hand and are the most dangerous sins.

So, if impurity is such a dangerous sin, then why are you playing with Fire??!!?? Don’t get involved in the sophist arguments that the Devil is trying to confuse you with - just don’t take the risk; assume masturbation is a mortal sin for you, and act accordingly.

By the way, I am a recovering sex addict who used to masturbate hundreds of times a month. I know what you are dealing with. Fix the problem instead of trying to rationalize the behavior; otherwise, you will continue to suffer. And trust me, continuing to masturbate will not ease your suffering.
 
You can never ask for forgiveness enough. Sometimes it may seem as though it is doing little good but it really is. Being that I myself have this problem, I can totally tell you that prayer and exercise are huge in helping out. Remember that habit does decrease the culpability of any sin. However, with God all things are possible and habits can be overcome, even addiction.

Try the Jesus Prayer.

Lord Jesus Christ,
Son of the Living God,
Have mercy upon me,
A sinner.

Repeat that over and over again, even when you are not under the temptation of sex. It is ultimately powerful. I can tell you that I have only been a Catholic for two years. My Orthodox cousin taught me that prayer and I have used it with great success. As I said I am not over temptation. I imagine you are never over it. But I have acheived weeks of chastity using mediation. The Rosary is great too. Only I find that the Jesus prayer is like cool oxygen when one is drowning under a hot sea of lust. haha graphic huh. Well, try it.

Remember, you can never confess enough. God wants you to live, and to live free. You know how you feel after a good confession, that sparkly clean feeling. That is never wrong. Jesus loves and will grant you the grace to carry your cross. Carry it brothers!
 
Where does it say “viewing pornography” is a grave offense, in those exact words? It doesnt say it in those exact words. Pornography is a mortal sin, there should be no doubt left at all to whether it is or not mortal. The definition is very vague about what constitutes pornography and only mentions viewers as victims of pornography. It simply says what it is and that it is grave matter. It doesnt define in clear language when it is a sin and for who. If we are to take the mention of the word pornography to mean all instances, then it should say it, dont you think? The stakes are heaven and hell. There should be a list clearly stated of which sins are mortal and which are not. No complicated theological justifications or exceptions that are unclearly worded and explained like the culpability part of masturbation. If the church actually posted a list of which sins are mortal and which are venial instead of using criteria for mortal and venial it would make it a lot simpler and would leave priests that are in error out of leading people into error. Why does the church not spell it out in clear language? It would seem that with souls at stake this would be a high priority.
“Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions.”–GK Chesterton

Dude,
I’m really trying to understand where you can’t see the point :confused:. I’m going to past it one more time.
2354 Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense. Civil authorities should prevent the production and distribution of pornographic materials.

Second to last sentance says that it PORNOGRAPHY is a grave offense. Above that sentance it says,
It does grave injury to the dignity of its participants (actors, vendors, the public),… ie;
ACTORS the ones performing the PORNOGRAPHY, VENDORS, the one selling PORNOGRAPHY, and PUBLIC, the one VIEWING the PORNOGRAPHY. It is sinful, to do any of the three, make it, sell it, or view it. mortal, if the three stated conditions are met.

I can’t see your argument…:cool:
 
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