Masturbation: natural law and a sudden lack of faith in the Church

[Think_About_It]

I am not trying to manipulate anything here, I am just trying to explain to you what I believe. From what I could tell, I saw your presence on this board as a way to discredit Catholics as mind numbed robots, and I wanted to show you that we aren’t. If you think masturbating is fine, go right on ahead. I don’t see what your problem is if you aren’t a member of the Church and no one is threatening your right to do so. I haven’t met a “proud worshipper of God,” within my Catholic community, that tells me or anyone else not to masturbate “because God said so.”

It is a huge fallacy to believe that we have anything all figured out. We can base our decisions on the best information we have, but we will always make most of our decisions based on some sort of higher moral code we adhere to. I said what I said about science to try to illustrate that point, not manipulate. I have no reason to manipulate anything here.

Yes, I do know people report that masturbation enhances their sexual relationships. I know that many people report that watching pornography, “swinging,” and other things enhances their relationships. I do not doubt that they really feel that way.

I can accept that.

If you really start reasoning, can’t you reason your way through just about everything?

You can reason about a lot, but certainly not beyond your means. Certainly, we can reason about the things we experience in everyday life.

 

[Abu]

Bleh_confused
how can i be sure that the Holy Spirit is so involved [in] the Catholic Church, that they wouldn’t make a mistake regarding morals.
hellopeople
how do we KNOW the church is the GPS? How do we know that Luther didn’t get it right? How do we know that Muhammad didn’t get it right…or the Buddha, or Krishna, or Yahweh.

Do you not listen, learn and love? In knowing that masturbation is unnatural and inhuman, there is no error.

To His apostles:
“However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak, and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.” (Jn 16:13,14).

1. Jesus of Nazareth is the only person who seriously claimed to be God and proved it by His resurrection. Neither Buddha, nor Confucius, nor Mohammed even claimed to be God.
2. Could Jesus as God “make a mistake”? He gave His authority to His Vicar and His Church.

All four promises to Peter alone:
“You are Peter and on this rock I will build My Church.” (Mt 16:18)
“The gates of hell will not prevail against it.”(Mt 16:18)
I will give you the keys of the Kingdom of heaven." ( Mt 16:19)
“Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven.” (Mt 16:19)

Sole authority:
“Strengthen your brethren.” (Lk 22:32)
“Feed My sheep.”(Jn 21:17).

Having commissioned Peter as His first Vicar, Jesus instructed the eleven and proclaimed: “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations….teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you…” (Mt 28:18-20)

One of the foremost theologians at Vatican I, Giovanni Perrone, expresses what we have seen well for he “was on most biblical grounds when he pointed out that Christians must adhere to the pope not because he is infallible; but since they must, on divine command, adhere to the pope, he has to be infallible.” (The Keys of the Kingdom, Franciscan Herald Press, 1986, p 170).

 

[mary1173]

Dear OP:
The problem is that mortal sin temporarily blinds us to our depravity and our failings. (That’s why I highlighted the above portion of your words.) It desensitizes us to our sin and leaves us more in the grip of the Devil, who is the King of rationalization. ('Can’t be wrong because it feels good, it’s “natural,” “it’s difficult to resist such a bodily temptation,” “It’s not hurting anyone,” etc.) And the more one becomes habituated to any sin, it becomes increasingly easy to rationalize it.

Masturbation isolates us from the natural order of sexuality, which is paired, not solo. It also unnaturaly focuses us our ourselves, turning the sexual act inward rather than outward. In doing this, it perverts sex and distorts its purpose. It also makes two idols (which is against the First Commandment, of course): we idolize ourselves by it, and we idolize pleasure for its own sake – as opposed to pleasure as a gift & as a product of holy union with the human object of our love. In pleasuring ourselves, we seize this gift out of impatience and false entitlement, therefore devaluing the gift itself.

Sin wounds us, leaving scars. Our relationship with God and His Son are healed through the sacrament of penance, but we may still battle with our previous inclinations, if we have become habituated. We also, though made whole by the sacrament, may have feelings of remorse, shame, regret – as we can with any sin of any category, committed recently or long ago.

I wish you would read Jason Evert: that is the advice I leave with you. Both he and his wife Cristalina (sp?) have “pasts.” He and she have mentioned this on EWTN several times. He was addicted to pornography, she to premarital sex and lying about it to her parents. Both of them still carry the after-effects of that, to some extent, and are up-front about that, for which I respect them. They don’t try to spin themselves as perfect or as without temptation or a fallen nature. Therefore, their attempt to live purely since their conversion is all the more credible. Jason’s books are advertised here on the CAF home web page. I think you would relate well to them. He is not a condemning person; he is an honest person who tells it like it is, unflinchingly. You might start with Jason’s book, “Theology of His Body/Theology of Her Body.”

We are all wounded. Some people are less aware of it and less honest about it. I know for a fact – I have experienced this – that there have been ingrained tendencies in my past that now make it more difficult for me to extricate myself from these bad habits, some of which are grievously sinful but which I used to be unaware I was engaging in so often out of force of habit. They key to losing any habit is first, to gain awareness of your actions and motivations, and second, to pray about it. The more tempting the habit, and/or the more ingrained the habit (which is another reason to conquer it a.s.a.p), the more personal prayer we need to battle it. Thirdly, frequent confession.

I don’t want to go into more specifics at this time about remedies, because those have been discussed often on other threads to which I have already contributed, and I’m sure you can find such discussions here. I’m merely trying to answer the specific questions you asked on this thread.

You took the words right out of my mouth!

 

[bleh_confused]

ok people, i see one of my main points has been raised. “is the pleasure in and of itself wrong?” now i agree that lusting after women is wrong, thats obvious, but what if masturbation is totally auto-erotic. in other words, its done simply for the pleasure, and no fanticizing is done. you all say that the pleasure from sex is sacred, but where do you derive this teaching? i do lots of things for the sake of pleasure, does that make me a bad person? i doubt it, because getting pleasure is not a bad thing

let me pose this example:
i derive pleasure by getting a massage. my senses are stimulated, but im not degrading anything.
i masturbate without thinking about a woman or anything, i just do it for the pleasure. my senses are stimulated and im not degrading anyone.

the only way masturbation, in that since, can be a sin is if sexual pleasure is divine pleasure. however, no where in scripture is this stated, it is simply inferred. there’s no situation, to the best of my knowledge, where God has stated sexual pleasure is divine. to me, its just the stimulation of senses, just like a massage or smoking hookah.

 

[Abu]

bleh_confused
you all say that the pleasure from sex is sacred, but where do you derive this teaching?

NO! It is not the pleasure that is sacred; it is the purpose built into our human nature by God that sex be used only in marriage between a man and a woman, for BOTH unitive and procreative purposes FROM which He has enabled us to derive great pleasure. This is knowable through reason. It is therefore also an infallible teaching of Christ through His Church.

When you eat a big meal and purposely make yourself vomit so that you can stuff again to continue enjoying the pleasure of eating again, you’re placing the pupose of pleasure above the purpose of eating which is to nourish the body.

Much graver is thwarting completely the procreative purpose of the climax of sexual intercourse by foolishly trying to get that pleasure without intercourse, as well as evading the unifying purpose of intercourse in a marriage. Even unaided reason can see that the purpose of intercourse is unifying the married couple and opening them to procreation.

 

[Abu]

Think About It
TELL me how it is wrong empirically. Otherwise, you’ll have to give me a REASON why it’s wrong.
Can you understand that masturbation does not detract, but can even enhance, other sexual relationships?

There is no excuse for promoting masturbation – it is unnatural and inhuman, but could well encourage other unnatural “sexual relationships”. There are multitudinous ways of reducing tension which are natural and normal.

It is helpful to understand that the concept of “person” is unknown before the Judeo-Christian lineage: Plato and Aristotle dealt only with statisms, and the individual has no significance in Stoic and Hindu thought – despite the awareness of some kind of human spirituality and immortality.

However, man is capable by his own activity of acquiring what is lacking and developing what is already possessed to fulfill his nature. So man can know his incompleteness; he can see what he is now and discover the direction of fulfillment by scrutiny of his own nature in body, mind and spirit – to achieve himself fully. As a free agent, he has an obligation to achieve himself fully, and this bond of obligation is the natural law. All that is knowable about man through psychology, history or any of the sciences is relevant to the natural law, is part of the natural law. The natural law is outside of man’s control because created by God in man’s nature.
[See Fr Paul M Quay, S.J., in *Why Humanae Vitae Was Right, Ignatius 1993, p 21-4]

Dr William Kraft asserts that the habit of masturbation carries the message that the person has not integrated his social, spiritual, emotional and physical life.” (A Psychospiritual View, 39-45).
Members of the opposite sex become sex objects, not persons with lives and personalities of their own. They are used for selfish purposes, and this detracts from having a healthy relationship. The purpose of genital activity between husband and wife is to give love and to give life, not to get pleasure. Not that there is anything wrong with sexual pleasure. However, the pleasure is naturally expressive of self-GIVING between husband and wife, not self-GETTING. For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of the sexual relationship which is demanded by the natural order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved. Real love means making the total gift of yourself to another, with no conditions or reservations.

“His is a nature, that is, endowed with intelligence and free will. As such he has rights and duties, which together flow as a direct consequence from his nature. These rights and duties are universal and inviolable, and therefore altogether inalienable. [John XXIII, *Pacem in Terris, 1963].
CCC 2352 … “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.”

 

[Elizabeth502]

the only way masturbation, in that since, can be a sin is if sexual pleasure is divine pleasure. however, no where in scripture is this stated, it is simply inferred. there’s no situation, to the best of my knowledge, where God has stated sexual pleasure is divine. to me, its just the stimulation of senses, just like a massage or smoking hookah.

Obviously if you really believed that, you would have no need to come on a discussion forum and ask for other people’s opinions. So just keep doing what you’re doing, since you’ve rationalized to yourself that you’re “not doing anything wrong.” That’s despite the fact that you have received dozens of responses to the contrary, cogent arguments, and rational, logical explanations of why and how being in a state of sin blinds you to the distinctions between The Good and merely The Pleasaurable.

Please stop playing games with the sincere posters on CAF, in that case.

Your question has been answered. You just don’t like the answers, so you keep asking it over and over.

Odd for a Catholic. You should know much better than that. Either you were never catechized properly, or you are conveniently denying your catechesis, or some habitual state of sin clouds the truth when it is in front of your face.

 

[Think_About_It]

ok people, i see one of my main points has been raised. “is the pleasure in and of itself wrong?” now i agree that lusting after women is wrong, thats obvious, but what if masturbation is totally auto-erotic. in other words, its done simply for the pleasure, and no fanticizing is done. you all say that the pleasure from sex is sacred, but where do you derive this teaching? i do lots of things for the sake of pleasure, does that make me a bad person? i doubt it, because getting pleasure is not a bad thing

let me pose this example:
i derive pleasure by getting a massage. my senses are stimulated, but im not degrading anything.
i masturbate without thinking about a woman or anything, i just do it for the pleasure. my senses are stimulated and im not degrading anyone.

the only way masturbation, in that since, can be a sin is if sexual pleasure is divine pleasure. however, no where in scripture is this stated, it is simply inferred. there’s no situation, to the best of my knowledge, where God has stated sexual pleasure is divine. to me, its just the stimulation of senses, just like a massage or smoking hookah.

Careful BC, you’re starting to use reason. I don’t even want to imagine what you would believe if you applied that to other concepts in Christianity.

That is to say, good on you for believing what reason suggests!

Obviously if you really believed that, you would have no need to come on a discussion forum and ask for other people’s opinions. So just keep doing what you’re doing, since you’ve rationalized to yourself that you’re “not doing anything wrong.” That’s despite the fact that you have received dozens of responses to the contrary, cogent arguments, and rational, logical explanations of why and how being in a state of sin blinds you to the distinctions between The Good and merely The Pleasaurable.

Please stop playing games with the sincere posters on CAF, in that case.

Your question has been answered. You just don’t like the answers, so you keep asking it over and over.

Odd for a Catholic. You should know much better than that. Either you were never catechized properly, or you are conveniently denying your catechesis, or some habitual state of sin clouds the truth when it is in front of your face.

Manipulation, bullying, and blaming in red-bold. Typical Christian response.

 

[OraLabora]

There is no excuse for promoting masturbation – it is unnatural and inhuman, but could well encourage other unnatural “sexual relationships”.

Actually you’re quite wrong. It is natural and it is human. Left to our own devices without any spiritual counsel, we will discover and practice this regularly, just as animals do, quite naturally. And it’s why even many otherwise faithful Catholics, struggle so hard with this.

Moreover it is wrong to oppose it on the basis that 'it could encourage other unnatural sexual relationships". Alcohol can encourage alcoholism in those predisposed to it. But we don’t ban alcohol, quite the opposite we base our most precious sacrament on the transubstantiation of an alcoholic beverage, wine. Masturbation may cause those with disordered sexual tendencies to sin, or it may offer a safety valve to prevent worse sins. We don’t know for sure, but it certainly is not the cause of sexual disorder.

However, we are called to rise above our nature, and to follow a superhuman example, Christ. Therein lies the challenge. That is the sole reason for banning masturbation, the Natural Law, which is something that is God-given to us and above our “nature” as biped mammals. It is a call to recognize that we are moral, rational, thinking beings who are capable of a choice between a higher calling, God, or merely feasting on the concupiscence of our biological nature. It is a means of entering into communion with God in recognizing His purpose for us.

 

[TedDC]

Careful BC, you’re starting to use reason. I don’t even want to imagine what you would believe if you applied that to other concepts in Christianity.

That is to say, good on you for believing what reason suggests!

Manipulation, bullying, and blaming in red-bold. Typical Christian response.

I wouldn’t go so far as to call it a “typical” Christian - or even Catholic - response. It does, however, exemplify some of the less-than-profound lines of thought which appear again and again on this forum. The first being: “If you don’t accept the Church’s position on XXX, it’s because you’re a libertine who’s merely seeking justification to continue your sinful ways.” And another is: “This has been discussed over and over, so it has been resolved and there’s no point in bringing it up again”.

And then there’s the sure-fire clincher: “The Holy Spirit will never permit the Church to err!!!”, to be followed up by “The gates of Hell shall not prevail!!!”, which I think you’re supposed to interpret as “I’m right, God is on my side side, you’re wrong - and will burn in Hell forever”.

 

[Elizabeth502]

Manipulation, bullying, and blaming in red-bold. Typical Christian response.

Quite the opposite. Rather, I surrendered to the OP’s own wish for self-confirmation. That’s all he wants: self-confirmation. He’s not interested in serious debate (nor are you), because I, along with a few others, have provided rational arguments as opposed to dogmatic or arbitrary ones. It seems it is yours, rather, that is a rageful response, bolded in red as it is, complete with angry face, etc. There was nothing manipulative or bullying in my post, yet there have been plenty of bullying responses (yours and others) and plenty of manipulative responses (the OP’s and others). So I repeat: If you, and the OP, and his other supporters, truly “knew” that there is nothing wrong with masturbation, there would be no argument and no need to come onto this discussion forum and browbeat others into accepting the New-Theory-of-the-Minute every few days. Just go and do what you want to do. But do not expect to be confirmed in your sin, because those who know for a fact it is sinful are not interested in lying to anyone who continues this charade.

 

[TedDC]

Much graver is thwarting completely the procreative purpose of the climax of sexual intercourse by foolishly trying to get that pleasure without intercourse, as well as evading the unifying purpose of intercourse in a marriage. Even unaided reason can see that the purpose of intercourse is unifying the married couple and opening them to procreation.

But how does reason prove that unification and procreation are the sole purposes, to the exclusion of any other purpose?

 

[Abu]

OraLabora
Actually you’re quite wrong. It is natural and it is human
Moreover it is wrong to oppose it on the basis that 'it could encourage other unnatural sexual relationships".

Really? Another unfortunate example of misinformed prejudices. It is obvious that when you disconnect the purpose of the act (unitive and procreative) from marriage then you open the door to anything goes – the act with the self, the act while frustrating the purpose with barriers, bestiality, homosexuality.

As well as the reasons in post #86, et al, we have the affirmation of Dr John Finnis, one of the most prominent living legal philosophers. His work, Natural Law and Natural Rights, is regarded as one of the definitive works of natural law philosophy: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Finnis

He writes: “…homosexual acts have a special similarity to solitary masturbation, and both types of radically non-marital act are manifestly unworthy of the human being and immoral.” (Referenced and quoted by Fr John A Harvey O.S.F.S., The Truth About Homosexuality, Ignatius 1996, p 215-6).

All people of good will can easily obtain the facts also at the EWTN Q&A and know that they have the right answers.

Re masturbation
Answer by Fr.Stephen F. Torraco on May-17-2007:
“It is not anyone’s invention but God’s that genital activity has as its inherent twofold purpose both love-giving and life-giving between husband and wife. Any other “purposes” are not God’s invention, but man’s, and contradict God’s created design.”

**Answer by Fr.Stephen F. Torraco on May-26-2006: **
Masturbation is knowable as a serious evil on the basis of the natural law and apart from any divinely revealed teaching. It clearly goes against the design of nature itself, according to which marital genital activity between husband and wife is by design both life-giving and love-giving. In light of this design that is knowable by reason alone, one can clearly understand why masturbation is a serious evil every bit as much as contraception - why both are opposed to the natural law. The attempt to morally justify either masturbation or contraception is the beginning of the end of civilization. Logically, it would follow that genital activity can be with anyone (including with oneself) or anything for any purpose whatsoever.

**CCC 2352 (EWTN)
Answer by Fr.Stephen F. Torraco on JUne-17-2008: **
In the part of the Catechism to which you refer, there is a list of things that can lessen or even eliminate moral culpability for engaging in the objectively evil act of masturbation. If any one or more of those things listed are present, it is possible that the person has not sinned mortally. It is best for that person to discuss this matter with his confessor.

 

[Think_About_It]

I wouldn’t go so far as to call it a “typical” Christian - or even Catholic - response. It does, however, exemplify some of the less-than-profound lines of thought which appear again and again on this forum. The first being: “If you don’t accept the Church’s position on XXX, it’s because you’re a libertine who’s merely seeking justification to continue your sinful ways.” And another is: “This has been discussed over and over, so it has been resolved and there’s no point in bringing it up again”.

And then there’s the sure-fire clincher: “The Holy Spirit will never permit the Church to err!!!”, to be followed up by “The gates of Hell shall not prevail!!!”, which I think you’re supposed to interpret as “I’m right, God is on my side side, you’re wrong - and will burn in Hell forever”.

Hmm, typical may be a bit strong. But it is a distinctive class of argumentation that I’ve seen replicated by Christians dozens of times in last-resort attempts to bully people into their position. It’s not the response you’ll get most of the time, but it’s not an unsual one either. You’ve listed a couple of your favorites too, I see

I must ask out of sheer curiosity, how long have you been a fallen-away Catholic?

 

[Think_About_It]

the purpose of the act (unitive and procreative)

And here is the begging of the question that slips by so many people. You cannot prove by reason alone the purpose of this act as you see it. (*See all my previous posts for context)

 

[OraLabora]

Really? Another unfortunate example of misinformed prejudices. It is obvious that when you disconnect the purpose of the act (unitive and procreative) from marriage then you open the door to anything goes – the act with the self, the act while frustrating the purpose with barriers, bestiality, homosexuality.

My point is that masturbation is natural in the biological sense. I agree with you in the Natural Law sense, and it’s where we are to rise above our biological natures to a God-ordered divine Nature.

But because it is natural in biology makes it tough to overcome.

But it does not naturally lead to the disorders you mentioned or open the door to them any more than alcohol naturally leads to alcoholism. It leads to alcoholism in the predisposed. Some of the acts you mention, can come from profound psychological disorders. A man who is heterosexual will not naturally regularly engage in same-sex activity, and a man who is homosexual will not regularly engage in opposite-sex activity, but I’ll bet dollars to donuts that most homosexual and heterosexual men have masturbated at one time or another.

You also misread that I am not suggesting that the door be opened. I am suggesting that we clearly call it for what it is: overcoming masturbation is about rising above our biological nature to a higher, God-driven divine Nature. It confuses the matter to think of it otherwise. It is along the lines saying “having sex is natural, and if two people are horny they should get it on”. That is indeed our biological nature, our “animal” side if you will but it is wrong. Why is it wrong? Because we are called to much greater than that by the Divine image imprinted on our souls. That is why adultery is a sin.

Many serious sexual disorders have nothing to do with masturbation leading to it. Many are rooted in sexual abuse for instance.

 

[Think_About_It]

He’s not interested in serious debate (nor are you)

You assume that we’re not interested in serious debate because we don’t buy your poorly defended position? That seems a bit rediculous.

I, along with a few others, have provided rational arguments as opposed to dogmatic or arbitrary ones.

Haha, you don’t see your views as dogmatic, even as they are written into the dogma of the church? Do you know what dogma is?

It seems it is yours, rather, that is a rageful response, bolded in red as it is, complete with angry face, etc.

Indeed I’m outraged. I’m outraged that final attempts to convert people to your position result in bullying.

There was nothing manipulative or bullying in my post

No, no, you were just doing your Catholic-duty. I understand.

yet there have been plenty of bullying responses (yours and others)

I bully bullies, not people looking to examine the facts.

If you, and the OP, and his other supporters, truly “knew” that there is nothing wrong with masturbation, there would be no argument and no need to come onto this discussion forum and browbeat others into accepting the New-Theory-of-the-Minute every few days.

The OP was probably almost certain, but undecided (I am not undecided; I have a strong stance based in reason and empiricism, which is why I shared my views). I provided my reason-claims, you provided your church’s apologetic-claims, and reason was the victor, as it always is.

Just go and do what you want to do. But do not expect to be confirmed in your sin

Confirmed how?

because those who know for a fact it is sinful are not interested in lying to anyone who continues this charade.

What charade? And people who know that it is sinful, don’t know it by fact (by reason); they only “know” it because they were told to believe it, like most everything else in religion.

 

[ManOnFire]

The brain craves pleasure. The more you feed it, the more it wants. It can be fed by sex, drugs, food, gambling, materialism, etc. or holiness.

My 2 cents: start weaning yourself by denying yourself “the happy ending.” The less pleasureful it is, the less you’ll crave it, and the more you can control it. Pat yourself on the back for progress. It will be positive reinforcement. Remember, Love is ultimately all about what’s in the heart and soul, not the physical pleasure.

If one chooses a life of selfish indulgence of the basic instincts, one will walk around like a person with a teaspoon and a sugar bowl: dipping the teaspoon into the sugar bowl frequently, taking a sweet lick that doesn’t last, constantly searching for the next temporary high via sex, drugs, materialism, extreme vanity, gambling, food, pursuit of trying to invent something artificially different for the few seconds of shallow amusement it provides, to no long term satisfaction. Once the temporary high wears off, the search for the next high continues indefinitely.

If one chooses to give one’s life to the Church’s way of sacrificial, true love for spouse and kids, one can experience the True love that makes one’s heart sing and will rock you to the depths of your bones. Deep, romantic, sacrificial, True Love via God’s Covenant for man and woman is The Way, The Truth, and The Life that BOTH of you will eventually need to commit to if you desire long term success.

EVERYONE needs to make a choice of which of the 2 lifestyles to PRIMARILY pursue. There’s no other way. Pop culture is a giant wedge that will force passionate people to decide, one path or the other. The Soul can be free and made clean again through Reconciliation. Forgive self and each other. We are only human. Forget the past. This is the chance for a new beginning. That’s what I love most about the Catholic Church: the Soul can be free and clean and new if you forgive and are forgiven. True Love is always possible for anyone with a clean soul, regardless of the past. If being influenced by pop culture causes sin, then it is our duty to minimize it’s influence on our lives by DECREASING our exposure to it.

Imagine if you actually really nailed 25 of the hottest women that you could possibly conjure up, every which way imaginable. Then what would you do next? What can you do for an encore? Nothing. You would have scratched that itch. You’d be bored in knowing that you can’t top yourself with that current set of values and priorities. There’s no future in it. THAT’S when you look to the depth of the Church for Soul food and the Way to Live! You came to the right place.

 

[Abu]

OraLabora
That masturbation is "natural in biology’ is irrelevant to a human being because, for a human person, we have the natural law built into our nature by God, and can know, by reason, what is right from wrong in the sexual sphere. As a free agent, he has an obligation to achieve himself fully, and this bond of obligation is the natural law. All that is knowable about man through psychology, history or any of the sciences is relevant to the natural law, is part of the natural law. The natural law is outside of man’s control because created by God in man’s nature.

The problem is Original Sin which we have inherited and which has harmed our nature. The remedy is proper formation in the family, school, and society. This formation is fully available when the infallible teaching of Christ’s Church complements the natural law.

Once again, no one has assumed that everyone is led to other unnatural disorders through masturbation or contraception – the fact is that the way is open as a way of thought to every other such disorder mentioned when the false assumption is made that sexual climax may be utilised for selfist pleasure outside of the natural law purposes. This is precisely the assumption in all such disordered acts, including sexual abuse of children.

I accept that, due to utilitarianism, modernism, and rationalism some, as we have seen, try to deny that the natural law can be known through reason alone, usually because they want to, or do, break it. Christ has given us His Church to proclaim His truth and enable us to overcome the effects of Original Sin.

 

[TedDC]

Hmm, typical may be a bit strong. But it is a distinctive class of argumentation that I’ve seen replicated by Christians dozens of times in last-resort attempts to bully people into their position. It’s not the response you’ll get most of the time, but it’s not an unsual one either. You’ve listed a couple of your favorites too, I see

I must ask out of sheer curiosity, how long have you been a fallen-away Catholic?

Ironically, my real “falling away” began after I joined this forum. I was a “cradle Catholic” but was, as they say around these parts, “poorly catechised”. I had always felt pretty comfortable in the faith, even though I hadn’t practiced it (i.e. didn’t attend mass or receive the sacraments) since my early teens, and was in fact quite ignorant of many of its important tenets.

I recently became more interested in the faith and hoped to renew my practice of it, and this forum is one of the places I found to learn more about it. But I was so taken aback by what I saw in so many postings here - the uncharitable judgmentalism, the “one true church” triumphalism, the intense legalism, the traditionalist rants about Vatican II - that it actually drove me further from the faith. In addition, I found that some of the harsher Church doctrines, which I assumed had moderated over the years, were still in full force. In the end, I just couldn’t call myself a Catholic any longer - a fact that was pointed out to me by a forum member, ever enthusiastic to fulfill his duty of “defending the faith”.