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Contarini
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No, that would be standard, traditional Catholic teaching, as opposed to the silly Protestant innovation that all sins are equal.
And it was the view of medieval theologians and canon lawyers that fornication was less sinful than unnatural sexual acts such as masturbation.
Fornication at least unites you to another person; masturbation doesn’t. The consequences of fornication may be worse in certain ways, but intrinsically it’s closer to the true purpose of sexual intercourse.
Edwin
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Lucky7
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I’m not trying to give you a hard time Methodi, but here’s a link that should help clarify things:
blueletterbible.org/faq/sayings.cfm
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Roy5
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MY POSTING CENSORED?
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Golly, I posted what I hoped was an interesting opinion on this subject a couple days ago, but it seems to have been erased. I wonder why. My guess is that I mentioned the sex scandal in the Church and recommended the end of required celibacy among the clergy. Perhaps these are thoughts that cannot be expressed here??? It will be interesting to see whether this posting survives.
Personally, I don't regard masturbation as a sin if it is occasional and doesn't become an addiction. Years ago, in one of those father-son chats, my dad said that 90% of boys admit to masturbation and the other 10% are liars. Perhaps that's an exaggerationm but not by much. It certainly is better than fornication and often quells the temptation to fornicate. I would let God be the judge and not judge others. Didn't Jesus say something about judging?
Catholicism has struggled with its attitude toward sex over the centuries. I still find it unfortunate that it seems to place virginity above sexual relations in marriage. Frankly, I think this is the main reason Catholic teaching has been ignored and even displaced by so many millions who were raised Catholic.
Pope Benedict's recent condemnation of condoms in Africa is the latest example. Condoms certainly aren't ideal - we know that. But if we really believe in life, saving lives, is it wise to condemn without exception one of the principal methods of saving lives in countries where AIDs has killed millions? Yes, abstinence should be the ideal, but how many of us live ideal lives? It seems that Jesus had something to say about 'casting the first stone'.
Keep smiling through all the problems and pitfalls of life. Christ lives and forgives. May God bless the whole world - no exceptions!
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CWBetts
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If your post was percieved as an attack against Catholicism, which i don’t doubt, given your smug attitude, then yes, it could have been deleted. As far as your attitudes, you are upside down. Culpability for sin (though not the seriousness) can be reduced if it is addictive behaviour, becaused of reduced control over your actions. The “sex scandal.” though abhorrent, is not limited to Catholic clergy. If you poke around on the internet for at least five minuites or so, you can find it is just as problematic among Protestants. The difference is The CAtholic Church is one big target, and not 30.000 little ones.
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MnklyMRPD
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For the red colored statement - Yes, it unites us to another person alright, but without LOVE, its as simple as lust, if not base animal instinct. And Christ said, “It is better for a man to marry if he or she lusts…” so, since, fornication
sex outside marriage or without marriage, then I think, based on Christ’s rule, fornication is basically a sin, Even if “unity” happens between the two sex-doers, if there is no love but only lusts, it can perfectly qualify as a sin.Just my own simple logic…
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distracted
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are you not Catholic? I believe (know) the pope is infallible when teaching waht is to be believed universally in the Church on faith/morals… Yet it is actually Christ working through the pope who is infallible… and if we cannot believe Jesus does this through the Church… then we have NO true Church on Earth… and no fool-proof way of finding absolute Truth… That is NOT something God would allow… He of all “persons” knows how fallible and prone to error (weak, frail-minded) human beings are… He HAD to establish an infallible church on Earth… or accept the alternative… that people would be clue-less about Him forever…
i thought a woman who was “loose” sexually was also called harlot… but then again… who knows? all i know is that the wording of this statement is not good and very hard to get anythign out of…
I tend to believe both he AND Aquinas felt this way… and maybe a lot of men I’ve been attracted to in the past (didn’t stick around long enough to find out, thank God)
not to me… but i will re-read the story about Tamar. What book is it in?
***all i know is that impure acts with self or others is mortal sin & probably costs a soul something like 100 yrs in Purgatory, assuming the soul even makes it to Purg… ***
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baylee
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This seems to suggest that the sin of masturbation has nothing to do with wasting seed. Wouldn’t this affect other teachings regarding matters of sex?
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CatholicKing08
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No. The teachings are that sex must always be open to life. Since masturbation by definition cannot be open to life, what is your point? Most of this stuff is just common sense when you think about it.This seems to suggest that the sin of masturbation has nothing to do with wasting seed. Wouldn’t this affect other teachings regarding matters of sex?
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MnklyMRPD
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I cannot subscribe to the idea that fornication is less sinful than masturbation just because there is unity in fornication. If one feels united with the person he/she is having sex with, there must be the element of LOVE in it. I cannot imagine myself or anybody else feeling united with a person during and after sex, without LOVE.
Lust towards another person is sexual arousal mostly due to extreme physical and sexual attraction towards that person. I think that lust even acts at times as a presursor to LOVE… thus eventually, the person who initially have lust for a person, ends in marrying that person, not only because of lust but also because of LOVE which was developed in the process. This usually happens to men who are mostly “external appearance” oriented.
In marriage, there is lust but also LOVE. In fornication, is their LOVE? Even if fornication fulfills the true purpose of sexual intercourse (as you say, which I think is not the only true purpose…) which is “unity”, if such “unity” is simply to relieve the lust, but no LOVE… then it is a sin.
But then again, some prostitutes, harlots, women fornicators pride themselves is saying that at least, they serviced themselves to men for comfort, relief and even for love at times… Really? I don’t understand this logic at all. If so, then they are just like those other sex devices then…and not human beings anymore, supposed to be made in the image and likeness of God…
Again, I don’t “buy” these prostitutes’, harlots’ and fornicators’ (women or men) rationalizations and/or justifications… Its not Christ’s rule, nor is it God’s. If we believe we are Christians, then, we should not subscribe to this…
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baylee
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I guess my point is: It appears that the wasting of Onan’s seed was not the issue, so what is the basis for the Church’s teaching that every sex act must be open to life?
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CatholicKing08
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The basis is Christian love, which is sacrificing yourself 100% for someone else. Sex is not just a physical act in which two people are united; it has a symbolic meaning where two spirits become one, united by love. Using contraception or withdrawing like Onan did takes the love out of sex. It’s like saying “I don’t love you enough to give all of myself to you, so I’ll just give you a little bit.” That was the issue in Onan’s case, it had more to due with the impurity of his heart than just simply his wasting seed. If his heart was in the right place he wouldn’t have done that.
The self-giving love in sex is comparable to the way Jesus gave all of himself to us by dying on the cross, and the way in which a priest devotes himself to the Church by making it his bride. Check out the Theology of the Body for more information.
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dan1el
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Thank you for posting this, guys, I am also struggling with this, but ESPECIALLY now that I am taking these pills - I’ve never been so tempted by masturbation in my life except B.C. (before I believed in Christ) ! It is ridiculous… I totally forgot about it, and now that I am thinking about it, I remember that the last time I felt so tempted to masturbate was the first time I took these pills, and now the first day I upped the dosage. It makes me feel angry, man, because I hate pills to begin with but since I want help with my life, I agreed to take them, but they are backfiring on me, man, the devil is a LIAR!!! It is NOT the will of God to masturbate!! GOD IS HOLY!!! I AM SUPPOSED TO IMITATE THE HOLINESS OF GOD; NOT THE LUSTFUL DESIRES OF THIS PHYSICAL BODY!! GOD IS THE SAME TODAY AS HE WAS YESTERDAY, JUST BECAUSE I WANT TO MASTURBATE DOESN’T MAKE IT GOD’S WILL, I’M NOT GOD!! YOU ARE A LIAR, DEVIL! I HATE YOU! YOU CONFUSER!! AHH! PRAY 4 ME I don’t want to sin! And the devil is a liar, because I will NOT use this as an excuse to say, “well, its not my fault, its out of my hands”, God help me, I will submit and resist the devil and that coward will flee ! The devil is defeated! The pill is called “abilify”
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Crumpy
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The Church has reversed itself a number of times, at least
Usury was wrong and then somebody pencil-whipped it and then it was OK.
Gambling was wrong for at least 16 centuries, through the Council of Trent, but then later some theologians pencil-whipped that and now gambling is OK. see the entry on gambling at www.newadvent.org.
The Church was anti-Semitic and now it’s not anti-Semitic.
Popes were anti-science, and now they’re pro-science.
In many areas, even in the U.S., the church was racist, and it was hard to change.
The Church was male dominated and still is, but it is trying to involve women more.
I love Benedict XVI but he messed up and has recanted his handling of the matter of lifting the excommunication of that renegade bishop Williamson, who denied the Holocaust.
Nobody wants to talk about a subject like masturbation because it’s so personal. It’s “too much information.”
The church condemns birth control, but it supports and advocates “rhythm” which is birth control — a little intellectual honesty here, please.
And, maybe a little bit more honesty about annulments, too? An annulment is just part of a divorce process.
I am Catholic and I love it, but I don’t think anybody should be lied to, like the Church has at times in the past.
Whipping out the cliches about every act of sexuality being open to conception is just too much of a stretch, to be an honest one.
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Snerticus
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You are in my prayers - may God give you the strength to fight the evil one as well as your temptations.
God Bless,
Snert
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CWBetts
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You really need to educate yourself on Church History if you believe this.
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Snerticus
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I think people take what they want out of Church history and leave the rest to someone else. I can see space aliens in Church history if I really set my mind to it. Also in the Bible too…
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Crumpy
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I said a lot of things. Pick something that I said was wrong. I got to this point precisely by educating myself.
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Crumpy
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I’m pushing 60 and I’ve lived through a bit of Church history myself.I think people take what they want out of Church history and leave the rest to someone else. I can see space aliens in Church history if I really set my mind to it. Also in the Bible too…
Oh, I get surprised. Take when I read the Catechism entry on gambling, and it says that cheating is OK, too. That was a big surprise.
I hesitate to throw down a charge of “Catholic fundamentalism” but we all do need to be aware of that problem. The Church has reversed itself in the past, as I stated in my previous post.
With respect to this thread, I don’t believe that the Church has honestly dealt with all the various circumstances in which masturbation occurs. Avoidance of masturbation might be a great spiritual goal to achieve, like never drinking alcohol or never doing x, y, or z.
I’ll quote directly from the first edition of the 1990 Catechism:
paragraph 2352: “To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety, or other psychological or social factors that can lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.”
I’m not saying that masturbation is not a sin, but the catechism gives sufficient testimony that it is not necessarily a mortal sin, and, from other teaching for sure, that no one has the right to judge other’s actions.
I agree a lot with Fr. Corapi, but he’s given talks where he bellows that masturbation is a mortal sin. He is wrong. The Catholic Church says otherwise.
Threads like these just go ON and ON, and nobody looks at the books. Give me a break. Be honest with the world, please.
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Roy5
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CRUMPY - GOOD POSTS
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Yes, I enjoyed reading your posts. I haven't checked everything out, but certainly the Church has changed its position on a number of major issues. Recall how Abelard wrote Sic et Non centuries ago in which he said Popes had contradicted one another.
Sadly, there are some Catholic traditionalists who simply refuse to face up to the truth, who are 'more Catholic than the Pope' and go to great lengths to claim that the Church has never been 'officially' wrong on anything. For example, they even defend the Inquisition and think it was fine that the Pope called for a special Te Deum when as many as 50,000 French Protestants were slaughtered when they were gathering to celebrate a wedding on St. Bartholomew's Day. They don't seem to want to leave behind the psyche of the Middle Ages when the punishment for 'heresy' was execution.
But I find that it may not be useful to question them, They probably are decent folks, but emotionally invested in their position. Fine with me - a free country - but I do become annoyed when some of them are so self-righteous in their rejoinders and accusations.
God bless the whole world - no exceptions.- Status