I think you will get a better response if you start your own thread titled something like “Non-religious reasons why masturbation is wrong”. Your discussion does not fit the original purpose of this thread, so some people are put off by the thread being “high-jacked”, they don’t see why you have a right to arbitrarily restrict the discussion. Others who might have (name removed by moderator)ut never even read the thread, because the title doesn’t match.I don’t like being played for a fool. I asked specifically for arguments other than “because the Church says so”, and that’s basically the argument you gave us; so one assumes that you didn’t read correctly either.
Masturbation is nothing that should be encouraged, but the notion that it is some sort of serious sin is foolish. It is a normal act stemming from our nature, and to treat it like a big transgression is a disservice to those who engage in it. It loads them down with guilt and can leave them with the false impression that sex is somehow bad.
I suggest that this is one of the key reason why Catholicism is deeply resented among many people, including many Catholics. Over the centuries the Church seems to have exhibited a negative attitude toward sex, one of the great God-given pleasures of life. Mary had to be born without original sin. What was/is that sin? The Church has glorified virginity, for example. There is nothing wrong with virginity, but it certainly is not to be 'sanctified'. Is there anything more normal or beautiful than a loving intimate relationship between a husband and wife?
Masturbation stems from our human nature. Again, it is not to be recommended, but it can be a safety valve when other forms of sexual relief are inappropriate. Why load down teenagers and the unmarried or the widowed with guilt over such a natural act? Many people see this as innate hostility toward sex, and this strikes them as strange and small potatoes, especially in light of the sexual sins of predatory priests that have come to light.
God bless all people of faith and may they have happiness - yes, even in their victimless and natural carnal expressions that indicate their God-given desire for intimacy and love.Thread drift? I don’t think so. The OP asked if he committed a mortal sin. So that is the question.I think you will get a better response if you start your own thread titled something like “Non-religious reasons why masturbation is wrong”. Your discussion does not fit the original purpose of this thread, so some people are put off by the thread being “high-jacked”, they don’t see why you have a right to arbitrarily restrict the discussion. Others who might have (name removed by moderator)ut never even read the thread, because the title doesn’t match.
Look I’m trying to be helpful, if you want a good discussion on that topic with more (name removed by moderator)ut start a new thread. If your looking for a small number of responses keep doing what your doing.Thread drift? I don’t think so. The OP asked if he committed a mortal sin. So that is the question.
It’s not unreasonable to ask, in the context, why the Church considers it to be a grave sin. Nor unreasonable to ask under which conditions it becomes mortal. And not unreasonable to say that simply saying “because the Church says so” is a singularly unsatisfying answer.
That hardly constitutes thread drift. It poses a question, to which, since it was posed, no satisfactory answer was given.
I’m not looking for non-religious reasons, because basically there are none. I am asking why the church came to that conclusion.
St. Paul clearly considers virginity a higher state/calling than married life. Please read 1 Corth 7 in its entirety, because he mentions it 2 or 3 times.Masturbation normal, church is not
Code:I suggest that this is one of the key reason why Catholicism is deeply resented among many people, including many Catholics. Over the centuries the Church seems to have exhibited a negative attitude toward sex, one of the great God-given pleasures of life. Mary had to be born without original sin. What was/is that sin? The Church has glorified virginity, for example. There is nothing wrong with virginity, but it certainly is not to be 'sanctified'. Is there anything more normal or beautiful than a loving intimate relationship between a husband and wife?
Your argument leads nowhere. And here’s why. You’re assuming that the Church is wrong. But if the Church is wrong about masturbation being immoral, then you’re points don’t matter at all. On the other hand, if the Church is correct, and Christ Himself has declared masturbation to be immoral, none of your points hold any water whatsoever.Masturbation normal, church is not
Code:Masturbation is nothing that should be encouraged, but the notion that it is some sort of serious sin is foolish. It is a normal act stemming from our nature, and to treat it like a big transgression is a disservice to those who engage in it. It loads them down with guilt and can leave them with the false impression that sex is somehow bad. I suggest that this is one of the key reason why Catholicism is deeply resented among many people, including many Catholics. Over the centuries the Church seems to have exhibited a negative attitude toward sex, one of the great God-given pleasures of life. Mary had to be born without original sin. What was/is that sin? The Church has glorified virginity, for example. There is nothing wrong with virginity, but it certainly is not to be 'sanctified'. Is there anything more normal or beautiful than a loving intimate relationship between a husband and wife? Masturbation stems from our human nature. Again, it is not to be recommended, but it can be a safety valve when other forms of sexual relief are inappropriate. Why load down teenagers and the unmarried or the widowed with guilt over such a natural act? Many people see this as innate hostility toward sex, and this strikes them as strange and small potatoes, especially in light of the sexual sins of predatory priests that have come to light. God bless all people of faith and may they have happiness - yes, even in their **victimless **and natural carnal expressions that indicate their God-given desire for intimacy and love.
So commit a lessor sin to correct a bigger sin. I don’t like that logic. Is that really your church’s teaching or is that your spin on it?Hi! I am going to put a wrench here and you may or may not want to crucify me. I am Greek Orthodox and I find alot of statements regarding masturbation here only in line to Catholic teaching with no regards to the teachings of the Eastern Church from her own Saints and the teachings of her Church Fathers and Mothers. Please do not judge me yet because as I love the teachings of the Catholic Church but I find her in disagreement in some matters that the Eastern Church may help correct her. First of all to put it simply masturbation in the Catechism has a second part where hardly anyone of you qoute. It refers to psychological or social factors that can lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum , moral culpability. The Eastern Church does not hold mastubation as a mortal sin as some as qouted here. It makes sense because as a Priest I will have more of a problem with a fellow sleeping with alot of women than I will with one masturbating. It is not a big deal with God. Now I know some of you will like to say I am wrong and will liken me to one who approves of mortal sin. Well what I am saying is not of my accord but the teaching of the Eastern Church. You want to correct me than what you are saying is the whole Eastern Church is wrong. She is not and I will explain. In the OT when King David’s son wanted his half-sister what would have been worse. Masturbating or taking the girl and then raping her. Now come on. There is quite a difference and had his son did masturbate there will not have been all that terrible spillover. It is not a mortal sin. It is in the eyes of the Eastern Church more close to venial ( using catholic language ) and all that is required is for you to repent is to pray to God for forgiveness. All venial sin is automatically forgiven at Communion but of course you need to pray and talk to God about it. You do not need to go to Confession everytime you commit it. If you go to confession let us say once a month than make a point to do so. You do not need to bother the Priest everytime you commit it. Take it to the Priest during your regular time. You interpreret what you do not know. At one time the whole Catholic Church did acknowledge it as a mortal sin but today she is more inclined towards the teaching of the Eastern Church. The wasting of the seed was considered mortal but today the Church does not think the same way. There is alot of pressure today and the Church is understanding more to that pressure. God too understands and if masturbation can relieve alot of pressure that is building inside a person why will the Church condemn such a person masturbating when masturbation which is venial can correct a more serious problem of premarital sex which of course is always mortal. Now many of you will disagree because that is alright. It is how you were brought up but try to be openminded to the truth the Eastern Church teaches. Her Saints did not approve of Augustine’s view on original sin and therefore Her teachings reflect more compassion and less judgemental on those things that the West were very hard on. The seperation of the 2 Churches 1000 years ago has prevented us to share our great teachings and now that we can do that today hopefully we will have a more balanced approach to the teaching we receive especially in the Cathechism. God Bless!
You may have accurately expressed the views of the Eastern Orthodox Church, but there is a reason it says “Catholic” in our Religion status. As with the other poster above, you ask us to reject the Catholic Church. For that is exactly what we do when agree with you that masturbation is not a grave (i.e. potentially mortal) sin. For those of us who list that we are Catholic, without any qualifiers, this will never happen.Hi! I am going to put a wrench here and you may or may not want to crucify me. I am Greek Orthodox and I find alot of statements regarding masturbation here only in line to Catholic teaching with no regards to the teachings of the Eastern Church from her own Saints and the teachings of her Church Fathers and Mothers. . . . The Eastern Church does not hold mastubation as a mortal sin as some as qouted here. It makes sense because as a Priest I will have more of a problem with a fellow sleeping with alot of women than I will with one masturbating. . . .** It is not a big deal with God.** Now I know some of you will like to say I am wrong and will liken me to one who approves of mortal sin. Well what I am saying is not of my accord but the teaching of the Eastern Church. You want to correct me than what you are saying is the whole Eastern Church is wrong. She is not and I will explain. In the OT when King David’s son wanted his half-sister what would have been worse. Masturbating or taking the girl and then raping her. Now come on. There is quite a difference and had his son did masturbate there will not have been all that terrible spillover. It is not a mortal sin. It is in the eyes of the Eastern Church more close to venial ( using catholic language ) and all that is required is for you to repent is to pray to God for forgiveness. All venial sin is automatically forgiven at Communion but of course you need to pray and talk to God about it. You do not need to go to Confession everytime you commit it. If you go to confession let us say once a month than make a point to do so. You do not need to bother the Priest everytime you commit it. . . . . At one time the whole Catholic Church did acknowledge it as a mortal sin but today she is more inclined towards the teaching of the Eastern Church. . . . .God too understands and if masturbation can relieve alot of pressure that is building inside a person why will the Church condemn such a person masturbating when masturbation which is venial can correct a more serious problem of premarital sex which of course is always mortal. Now many of you will disagree because that is alright. It is how you were brought up but try to be openminded to the truth the Eastern Church teaches. Her Saints did not approve of Augustine’s view on original sin and therefore Her teachings reflect more compassion and less judgemental on those things that the West were very hard on. . . .
This is off the thread, but when you suggest that the Church can never be wrong, and therefore masturbation is a sin, then we have to respond.
God is always right, but neither the Church nor the scriptures may always be right. When I think back over history, and the way the Church blessed the wholesale murder of Albigensians, Hussites, Waldensians and others - forgive me if I suggest that the Church was very wrong. Human beings misinterpreted the will of God. In recent years, as I recall, the Vatican even admitted that it had condemned Galileo unfairly. Have you read "Sic et Non" by Abelard, showing how the Papacy had taken one position, then another? As I recall the Church accepted the evil notion that witches should be slaughtered, and thousands were. Heretics, too, of course. Even that brilliant St. Thomas Aquinas urged the execution of heretics.
If you want to find sexual corruption, I would suggest tackling some of the heroes of the Old Testament. How, for example, Abraham wanted to pass off his wife as his sister. How about that noble King David who sent Uriah to be killed so that he could have Bathsheba. How about Solomon, that wisest of all men, who had 1000 wives and 600 concubines!
By the way, check out Exodus 21, Lev. 20 and Deut. 22-23. For Catholics and Protestants who take the 'word of the Lord' literally, what do you think of such punishments for sexual transgressions?
As for 'wasting one's seed', isn't that the actual goal of the Catholic version of birth control. Try to avoid conception. The same goal as artificial birth control which is so sharply assailed. Like annulments. The Church seems to want to control too many aspects of our personal lives. A civil divorce is wrong. A 'church divorce' is okay because the marriage shouldn'e have taken place initially. Humbug. People change. Situations change. Love can become alienation and worse. Sad, but true. In most cases more a sadness than a sin..
Which is worse? Masturbation by some teenager or single adult or widower? Or, priests who preyed on altar boys and their bishops who transferred them to other parishes? No comparison. I say, addictive masturbation is not a good idea, like other addictions are not a good idea, either. But occasional masturbation can be a normal, healthy sexual release and to paint it as a grievous sin and cause guilt and fear is foolish. When will the Catholic Church adopt a realistic view of sexuality and stop alienating people who have such a view?
God bless the whole world - no exceptions.It makes sense because** as a Priest** I will have more of a problem with a fellow sleeping with alot of women than I will with one masturbating. It is not a big deal with God. Now I know some of you will like to say I am wrong and will liken me to one who approves of mortal sin. Well what I am saying is not of my accord but the teaching of the Eastern Church. You want to correct me than what you are saying is the whole Eastern Church is wrong. She is not and I will explain. In the OT when King David’s son wanted his half-sister what would have been worse. Masturbating or taking the girl and then raping her. Now come on. There is quite a difference and had his son did masturbate there will not have been all that terrible spillover.
I’ve noticed this too. Basically the first part of the CCC quote, is God being infinitely just in Truth. That second part that so many leave out, is the part about God being infinitely merciful.First of all to put it simply masturbation in the Catechism has a second part where hardly anyone of you quote. It refers to psychological or social factors that can lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum , moral culpability.
I know a Benedictine monk of a very conservative monastery who says, and I quote “The Catholic Church’s sexual ethics weren’t designed for humans.” There are many in the Church that would agree with you, including a not insignificant number of her own clergy.When will the Catholic Church adopt a realistic view of sexuality and stop alienating people who have such a view?
Masturbation is one expression of a larger and more problematic issue - lust. The reason masturbation is suppressed is because you can’t control bigger problems by letting little ones slip by. It’s like the “harmless” fleck of food stuck between your teeth that may not be a choking hazard or anything on its own but will eventually lead to a cavity - suppressing masturbation helps keep lust in check.Which is worse? Masturbation by some teenager or single adult or widower? Or, priests who preyed on altar boys and their bishops who transferred them to other parishes? No comparison. I say, addictive masturbation is not a good idea, like other addictions are not a good idea, either. But occasional masturbation can be a normal, healthy sexual release and to paint it as a grievous sin and cause guilt and fear is foolish. When will the Catholic Church adopt a realistic view of sexuality and stop alienating people who have such a view?
Your argument leads nowhere. And here’s why. You’re assuming that the Church is wrong. But if the Church is wrong about masturbation being immoral, then you’re points don’t matter at all. On the other hand, if the Church is correct, and Christ Himself has declared masturbation to be immoral, none of your points hold any water whatsoever.
When people raise arguments like you do, I wonder if their belief structures exclude absolute truth and morality. That’s the only explanation I can come up with for why this most fundamental threshold issue–is the Church right or wrong–is so very often ignored by people arguing this issue. The better argument would be that it makes so little sense that masturbation should be immoral, that those who declare it to be such must be wrong. You don’t make that argument, and your points don’t seem to support such an argument, either. In fact, I don’t really think this argument could be made, because no one can credibly assert that masturbation is so important and inherently good that God couldn’t possibly declare it to be immoral.
Which is again, why I said, if someone knows the church teaches against it and does it anyway.Sorry I made a mistake, I meant to say you just contradicted yourself by saying it IS a mortal sin.
It isn’t, unless the other two conditions are met.
Luke 10:16; Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me."I don’t like being played for a fool. I asked specifically for arguments other than “because the Church says so”, and that’s basically the argument you gave us; so one assumes that you didn’t read correctly either.
There must be reasoning behind the Church’s affirmation. If we’re going to convince somebody that this is a serious sin, then just saying “because the Church says so” is not likely to win too many converts.
For what it’s worth I do think it’s a sin, and can be mortal in some circumstances. But none of us here are qualified to say if, when someone comes to us and says “did I commit a mortal sin?”, that it is or isn’t. That’s a determination only a confessor can make with full history of the circumstances.
The Orthodox Churches do have a lot of beauty, for sure.Listen please I am not referring to people who commit serious crimes OK. Whatever your reasons are, you are not understanding to what I was referring to. We start off in this planet as babies Ok so entertaining certain sins is alright with God as long as we are not into serious sins. Now when I refer to my last post gosh I am not thinking of pornography or pediphiles or whatever you thinking of. Gosh can you not use some common sense. I am referring to the natural growth of a person who when she or he is growing may engage in masturbation. Now if you are a pediphile or heavily engage in pornography than I believe you have a more serious problem at hand. But come on I am talking about everyday kids. Some of you have a disinterest to basic common sense which can more truthful than the logic you have expressed. Now if commiting a least serious sin is a bother to you to help you prevent a more serious sin than I may ask you how can you eliminate sin altogether. A great friend a precious blood sister quoted to me once " choose the lesser of two evils ". Now this came from a catholic sister not from me. I agree with her. You want to eliminate sin then forget about it. It will not happen. But you can gradually grow spiritually into a more mature spiritual person if you are not so hard on people struggling with sin. I believe we can be more understanding and try in time to be more patient with people. I do not say go ahead and masturbate all you want. But I try to be more understanding and compassionate to the other. If a person is struggling with masturbation, condemning them will not help. We need to exercise prudence and try to understand their own difficulties in their spiritual life before we make that judgement. I try to use prudence and we are living in very difficult times. When you make statements to me try using some prudence too instead of making statements like you do. My Church has beautiful teachings and beautiful people and I hope someday all Catholics will recognize that in us. God Bless!