Masturbation while deployed to Iraq.

[searching06]

It seems like you think there is no authentic way to know what the Church actually teaches?

Of course there’s a way to know what it teaches. But it is in no way as simple as you present it - “pull out the book and read it” or “here’s a quote”. And it cannot be “opinion” (where I took your words literally) if it is a “teaching”.

 

[setter]

Raider05x,

The direction of this thread, which started with your honest question, is what I meant about being cautious with all of this. It’s great for a bunch of armchair Catechists, and maybe even those with a great deal of knowledge, but it doesn’t take the place of seeking human guidance (which no one has claimed; quite the opposite).

Take everything with a grain of salt, so to speak, me included - pray, go see a priest, fight the good fight, don’t be discouraged, “keep your head down and your powder dry”.

God bless.

I trust that the OP is man and mature enough to sort the chaff from the wheat.

I am curious, what exactly do you mean by “a bunch of armchair Catechists, …but it doesn’t take the place of seeking human guidance”. Somewhow, I am less than human?

One last point: Who do you include in your ‘band of brothers’?

 

[fix]

Of course there’s a way to know what it teaches. But it is in no way as simple as you present it - “pull out the book and read it” or “here’s a quote”. And it cannot be “opinion” (where I took your words literally) if it is a “teaching”.

I have no idea of your point? Look to the OP example.

He mentions the act he commits. Says it does not feel like a mortal sin. He gets replies that tell him to seek out a priest and that the act is wrong, but his culpability may be great, lessened, or non at all, but the act is still wrong and he should try his best not to do it.

I agree each concrete case is different and many complexities may be involved that should be parsed out with a priest. But, the teaching is clear. It seems you want to minimize this sin because the Church says culpability may be reduced in certain situations.

First, that culpability may be reduced sometimes does not mean the act is good and one should keep doing it. Secondly, it is not some great burden to grasp what the CCC actually says.

 

[Siena]

I’ll be praying for you and your family.

 

[searching06]

I trust that the OP is man and mature enough to sort the chaff from the wheat.

I’m quite sure he is.

I am curious, what exactly do you mean by “a bunch of armchair Catechists, …but it doesn’t take the place of seeking human guidance”. Somewhow, I am less than human?

One last point: Who do you include in your ‘band of brothers’?

“Armchair generals” were defined as folks sitting in the rear without knowing what is going on out front. Maybe a bad analogy or use of terms; I’ll take the hit on that. “Armchair Catechists” not a whole lot different - easy to sit *on line *and dispense what passes as knowledge or even is knowledge or quotes from Church teachings without fully knowing what is going on with our OP. Not knocking the intent; it is the approach I differ with or the lack of empathy - see below.

Are you really going to go there with the “somehow I’m less than human” or are you just offended? I’ll restate “human guidance” as face-to-face, on-the-ground guidance, which lends to empathy and clear communication.

Please define your last question. I sense a set up.

 

[searching06]

I have no idea of your point? Look to the OP example.

He mentions the act he commits. Says it does not feel like a mortal sin. He gets replies that tell him to seek out a priest and that the act is wrong, but his culpability may be great, lessened, or non at all, but the act is still wrong and he should try his best not to do it.

I agree each concrete case is different and many complexities may be involved that should be parsed out with a priest. But, the teaching is clear. It seems you want to minimize this sin because the Church says culpability may be reduced in certain situations.

First, that culpability may be reduced sometimes does not mean the act is good and one should keep doing it. Secondly, it is not some great burden to grasp what the CCC actually says.

I agree with everything you said here, except for my wanting to minimize it…

 

[setter]

“Armchair generals” were defined as folks sitting in the rear without knowing what is going on out front. Maybe a bad analogy or use of terms; I’ll take the hit on that. “Armchair Catechists” not a whole lot different - easy to sit *on line *and dispense what passes as knowledge or even is knowledge or quotes from Church teachings without fully knowing what is going on with our OP. Not knocking the intent; it is the approach I differ with or the lack of empathy - see below.

Are you really going to go there with the “somehow I’m less than human” or are you just offended? I’ll restate “human guidance” as face-to-face, on-the-ground guidance, which lends to empathy and clear communication.

I see that you limit combat experience to the temporal realm.

“For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.” Ehpesians 6: 12

Please define your last question. I sense a set up.

No set up …The first lines of combatants in any theatre of warfare are spiritual warriors.

 

[Greg27]

I think this is a delicate issue and many men have problems with it. The Church clearly teaches that masturbation (along with other sex acts outside of marriage) are ‘gravely disordered’, but a mortal sin is a grave and total break with God, and in truth, the best way to judge this is with your conscience. I think in any case, masturbation should be avoided because it is really only a form of selfish gratification, and the reason the Church’s moral theology rules out masturbation is that it doesn’t seem to help develop the marital bond positively in any way, in its unitive or reproductive functions. It is better to resist temptation and spend one’s time and energy (whatever one’s vocation) on more useful and holy things, and save sexual enjoyment for where it properly belongs, with our spouse.

In terms of gravity, masturbating is clearly nowhere in the same league as abortion or adultery, let alone murder, torture or rape. To murder or rape someone is infintely worse than to masturbate because one loses control of one’s lust.

Yet our sex drive is extremely powerful, and unless carefully controlled and regulated, it can control us and become an idol and soon lead into really deadly sin. What might start out as routine masturbation may soon get ‘boring’ and one may be tempted to find more pleasure in combining it with porn, or perhaps some sexual acts outside of marriage. St Augustine warns even being careless with venial sins can soon lead to a deadly sin, and if temptations in the heart aren’t watched and controlled carefully, they can soon dominate us.

The sacrament of confession is fairly good with dealing with this and it is surprisingly easy to resist, when one has a little patience and effort.

 

[setter]

Maybe i’m just looking for an easy way out but i found this.

Father John Ruffo, “What is church’s stance on masturbation? Mortal sin in what circumstances?,” Catholic Q and A, 2002-MAR-11, at: catholicqanda.org/

It is always prudent to check the reliability, as in orthodoxy, as in views expressed are with the same mind of the Church, of one’s sources. I would say that Fr. John Ruffo does speak for what the Church teaches:

ABOUT MASTURBATION:
Diversity of teachings within
the Roman Catholic Church

The second factor might lessen the severity of the sin so that it not a mortal sin. Here, Catholic theologians have a range of interpretations:

Father John Ruffo takes a much more liberal position:

religioustolerance.org/masturba10.htm

 

[searching06]

I see that you limit combat experience to the temporal realm.

“For we are not contending against flesh and blood, but against the principalities, against the powers, against the world rulers of this present darkness, against the spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places.” Ehpesians 6: 12

No set up …The first lines of combatants in any theatre of warfare are spiritual warriors.

It is an insult to OP and any other soldier to insinuate or put your spiritual warfare on par with their physical one.

“I see that you limit combat experience to the temporal realm.” Are you talking a definition of “combat experience” or assuming I haven’t dealt with it outside the temporal realm? Look at the context of the OPs original question and where he is - the question is a spiritual one under the stress of physical combat. Don’t add more than there is.

I can promise that while I do know how hard and dark spiritual warfare is, a soldier deals *in both *24/7. You cannot necessarily equate the two. You want to pray for him - awesome; think you can counsel him, maybe so. Don’t put yourself as equal at that physical level, unless you’ve been there.

And at the same time, your Eph 6 quote above is absolutely true - been there too and fight it every single day. Depending on what is happening, the spiritual fight is no less horrific at times, and somehow maybe even worse - depends on the nature of the fight. I don’t know what you’re going through - an actual spritual fight against those evil principalities in your personal life, or a general one every day against what we face in this world. Nothing reduces or lessens *your *fight or struggle or anyone elses, or all of the efforts you put forth in prayer; no one knows that but God and you. Lord knows all those who are saints went through worse than we, and look where they are - saints.

First line of combatants are spiritual warriors? Interesting concept. Maybe it deserves its own thread instead. But from personal experience, the first line of combatants in any theater of war are soldiers; they just happen to be praying their collective butts off at the same time.

 

[setter]

In terms of gravity, masturbating is clearly nowhere in the same league as abortion or adultery, let alone murder, torture or rape. To murder or rape someone is infintely worse than to masturbate because one loses control of one’s lust.

The Church teaching disagrees with your opinion. Masturbation is in the “same league” or “gravity” of sin, i.e., serious and mortal sin, as your other cited sins.

 

[fix]

The Church teaching disagrees with your opinion. Masturbation is in the “same league” or “gravity” of sin, i.e., serious and mortal sin, as your other cited sins.

Just to add:

Whatever the force of certain arguments of a biological and philosophical nature, which have sometimes been used by theologians, in fact both the Magisterium of the Church - in the course of a constant tradition - and the moral sense of the faithful have declared without hesitation that masturbation is an intrinsically and seriously disordered act.[19] The main reason is that, whatever the motive for acting this way, the deliberate use of the sexual faculty outside normal conjugal relations essentially contradicts the finality of the faculty. … Even if it cannot be proved that Scripture condemns this sin by name, the tradition of the Church has rightly understood it to be condemned in the New Testament when the latter speaks of “impurity,” “unchasteness” and other vices contrary to chastity and continence…

A person therefore sins mortally not only when his action comes from direct contempt for love of God and neighbor, but also when he consciously and freely, for whatever reason, chooses something which is seriously disordered. For in this choice, as has been said above, there is already included contempt for the Divine commandment: the person turns himself away from God and loses charity. Now according to Christian tradition and the Church’s teaching, and as right reason also recognizes, the moral order of sexuality involves such high values of human life that every direct violation of this order is objectively serious.[24]…

vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19751229_persona-humana_en.html

 

[TimOliv]

Maybe I missed something, but since he is in Iraq, that means that the way he deals with the stress is to masturbate, therefore, he does not consent to it?

If it is an compulsion, does that change the fact that it is still a mortal sin? As it has been stated it lessens/diminishes the culpability of that sin, it does not get rid of it.

Let me also state that I never EVER claimed to be God or claim to know what God will use in judgement of a person. I am simply following the teachings of the Catholic Church.

So tell me, based upon your logic, there is a chance that abortion could be a venial sin? Well you know with the pressure that a family may be putting on someone, all the stress that is involved, right? Then you could see how this could not be mortal, right?

I will once again refer you to the qualifications for a mortal sin. If the sin is committed without full knowledge then a mortal sin has not been committed.

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

I will once again refer you to the qualifications for a mortal sin. If the sin is committed without full knowledge then a mortal sin has not been committed.

Would all the posts here qualify for full knowledge?

The OP also stated that:

My concern is that i don’t feel like i am committing a mortal sin when i fantasize about sex with my wife. It is one of few pleasures I have out here and need some advice on the subject.

So to me it seems like he has knowledge of what a mortal sin is. He does not specifically state his knowledge of masturbation as as sin or not, but I think that we can infer that from his post.

Full knowledge?

 

[TimOliv]

Would all the posts here qualify for full knowledge?

The OP also stated that:

So to me it seems like he has knowledge of what a mortal sin is. He does not specifically state his knowledge of masturbation as as sin or not, but I think that we can infer that from his post.

Full knowledge?

Firstly, my fellow board member, please cool your tone. And then stop taking things I say out of context. I am responding directly to your post regarding abortion. You ask “if by my logic” abortion can be considered a venial sin. No, it cannot. But by the logic of the church it most certainly can under appropriate circumstances.

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.” (CCC)

Meaning then, if a woman were to have an abortion without deliberate consent (consenting to the abortion because she is being THREATENED by family members or a significant other could constitute diminished capacity to consent).

Or, if we are talking about a woman raised in our culture of the day who is completely unaware that abortion really is murder since her parents, teachers, guidance counselor and family physician simply offer it as a perfectly logical health care option, I would say she lacks full knowledge.

So let me ask you then, by YOUR logic is abortion always a mortal sin and doesn’t need to meet the conditions that must be met for a sin to be mortal? Has abortion elevated to a level beyond mortal sin to the point where no church teaching pertaining to mortal sin affects it?

In response to your last post, the OP clearly has full knowledge, however, I said he should discuss the matter with a priest to determine his culpability. This is because he is in a stressful environment and the stress MAY diminish his ability to deliberately consent. i.e. The stress of the combat zone is so great that masturbation has become a compulsion.

Does that mean it isn’t a sin? No

Does that mean if he is not culpable he can masturbate all he wants guilt free? No

It means that no mortal sin has been committed and the OP should commit himself to trying to avoid masturbation.

However, culpable or not, mortal sin or venial, this must be done under the guidance of a PRIEST, not all of us here at CAF.

 

[quasimodo]

(I know it is a closely guarded secret so keep it quite…here is the secret … ** men don’t die nor do they suffer damage of any kind if they don’t have orgasms all the time. They can actually go for extremely long periods of time without ill effects. By extremely long I mean many decades, not hours or days** )

 

[searching06]

Firstly, my fellow board member, please cool your tone. And then stop taking things I say out of context. I am responding directly to your post regarding abortion. You ask “if by my logic” abortion can be considered a venial sin. No, it cannot. But by the logic of the church it most certainly can under appropriate circumstances.

Meaning then, if a woman were to have an abortion without deliberate consent (consenting to the abortion because she is being THREATENED by family members or a significant other could constitute diminished capacity to consent).

Or, if we are talking about a woman raised in our culture of the day who is completely unaware that abortion really is murder since her parents, teachers, guidance counselor and family physician simply offer it as a perfectly logical health care option, I would say she lacks full knowledge.

So let me ask you then, by YOUR logic is abortion always a mortal sin and doesn’t need to meet the conditions that must be met for a sin to be mortal? Has abortion elevated to a level beyond mortal sin to the point where no church teaching pertaining to mortal sin affects it?

In response to your last post, the OP clearly has full knowledge, however, I said he should discuss the matter with a priest to determine his culpability. This is because he is in a stressful environment and the stress MAY diminish his ability to deliberately consent. i.e. The stress of the combat zone is so great that masturbation has become a compulsion.

Does that mean it isn’t a sin? No

Does that mean if he is not culpable he can masturbate all he wants guilt free? No

It means that no mortal sin has been committed and the OP should commit himself to trying to avoid masturbation.

However, culpable or not, mortal sin or venial, this must be done under the guidance of a PRIEST, not all of us here at CAF.

Thank you and amen!

 

[Mirror_Mirror]

Firstly, my fellow board member, please cool your tone. And then stop taking things I say out of context. I am responding directly to your post regarding abortion. You ask “if by my logic” abortion can be considered a venial sin. No, it cannot. But by the logic of the church it most certainly can under appropriate circumstances.

I have to apologize if the “tone” came off in the wrong way, however, I did not realize per your post that you were directly responding to the abortion part of the email. For the record, I am not sure how you can tell the tone of the post, but if it came off the wrong way, please accept my apology as it was not intended that way.

Meaning then, if a woman were to have an abortion without deliberate consent (consenting to the abortion because she is being THREATENED by family members or a significant other could constitute diminished capacity to consent).

Or, if we are talking about a woman raised in our culture of the day who is completely unaware that abortion really is murder since her parents, teachers, guidance counselor and family physician simply offer it as a perfectly logical health care option, I would say she lacks full knowledge.

So let me ask you then, by YOUR logic is abortion always a mortal sin and doesn’t need to meet the conditions that must be met for a sin to be mortal? Has abortion elevated to a level beyond mortal sin to the point where no church teaching pertaining to mortal sin affects it?

Let me ask you, is killing ever a venial sin?

In response to your last post, the OP clearly has full knowledge, however, I said he should discuss the matter with a priest to determine his culpability. This is because he is in a stressful environment and the stress MAY diminish his ability to deliberately consent. i.e. The stress of the combat zone is so great that masturbation has become a compulsion.

Does that mean it isn’t a sin? No

Does that mean if he is not culpable he can masturbate all he wants guilt free? No

It means that no mortal sin has been committed and the OP should commit himself to trying to avoid masturbation.

However, culpable or not, mortal sin or venial, this must be done under the guidance of a PRIEST, not all of us here at CAF.

I never said that I was the one that decided if a sin is mortal or venial, I have simply stated what the Church as taught about masturbation:

2352 By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. **“Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.”**138 “The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.” For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of "the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved."139

To form an equitable judgment about the subjects’ moral responsibility and to guide pastoral action, one must take into account the affective immaturity, force of acquired habit, conditions of anxiety or other psychological or social factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum, moral culpability.

Again, I realize that the last part of this statement from the CCC says that “…factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum moral culpability.” But it does not state that it eliminates it. It does not state that these factors cause the sin to be venial. Maybe some interpret it that way, but I do not see it.

It seems like a lot of times people want to twist and turn this into a loophole that can fit them in their situation to justify masturbating. Serious matter, God said so, full knowledge, you know it is wrong, full consent of the will, you do it anyway. I am just following what the Church has taught.

Since I have not seen my wife for almost 3 weeks and I am stressed out about selling a house, finding a job, my kids being mad at me because I am not there, possible relocation of a family, a pregnant wife at home with 3 other children without me, etc, etc, should I be “allowed” to masturbate and it not be a mortal sin?

 

[CatholismRox]

Pray not to do it. Pray pray pray!

 

[TimOliv]

Let me ask you, is killing ever a venial sin?

I really don’t know why you keep ignoring this quote from the CCC but here it goes once more…

1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.” (CCC)

If those conditions are not met together, the sin is NOT mortal. Those are the qualifying conditions for the sin to be mortal. So once more, yes, if you kill without meeting one or more of those conditions, it is not a mortal sin.

Again, I realize that the last part of this statement from the CCC says that “…factors that lessen, if not even reduce to a minimum moral culpability.” But it does not state that it eliminates it. It does not state that these factors cause the sin to be venial. Maybe some interpret it that way, but I do not see it.

It seems like a lot of times people want to twist and turn this into a loophole that can fit them in their situation to justify masturbating. Serious matter, God said so, full knowledge, you know it is wrong, full consent of the will, you do it anyway. I am just following what the Church has taught.

Since I have not seen my wife for almost 3 weeks and I am stressed out about selling a house, finding a job, my kids being mad at me because I am not there, possible relocation of a family, a pregnant wife at home with 3 other children without me, etc, etc, should I be “allowed” to masturbate and it not be a mortal sin?

We aren’t talking about that part of the CCC, we are talking about the portion which I quoted. If the priest determines that you are or were not in the proper mindset at the time of commission, your culpability may be reduced, with regards to CCC 1857, that could mean you didn’t have full knowledge or your ability to deliberately consent was diminished (as with a compulsion).