Masturbation...why?

[Wesrock]

That still doesn’t explain why God allows animals to do things that are sinful for humans to do. Why did He create the animals in such a way that they would do these things in the first place since they apparently don’t have any free will like humans do? If masturbating is bad for humans, then why wouldn’t it also be bad for animals even if they won’t be punished for doing it?

I don’t know if there is an official teaching on this, though certainly a lot of scholars must have pondered it. We are a pilgrim Church waiting for the regeneration and renewal of the cosmos. It’s not just the Resurrection of the dead and glorified bodies, but a new heaven and a new earth.

I do not read the Creation narrative as literal history, but there’s been a lot of thought put into Adam’s sin not just disordering human nature, but that it disordered the cosmos as well. Genesis tells us that the earth was cursed because of his disobedience, that what was once very fruitful now would not be, and it would grow thorns and thistles to choke our food. This is a curse not on humans, but on the very cosmos. The earth, the animals, indeed all of creation was affected by man’s disobedience.

Still, again, I’m not sure how we can use animals as examples of model behavior. Certainly many obvious bad behaviors are reflected among them. Your question seems more a question of religion (why did God create things THIS way) and God’s plan than a simple argument for masturbation being healthy and good.

 

[NovusFidem]

That still doesn’t explain why God allows animals to do things that are sinful for humans to do. Why did He create the animals in such a way that they would do these things in the first place since they apparently don’t have any free will like humans do? If masturbating is bad for humans, then why wouldn’t it also be bad for animals even if they won’t be punished for doing it?

Again, I can’t speak for God, this is pure conjecture. But He might let animals do whatever because animals don’t need to ascend to a higher understanding, and don’t need to better themselves. Animals were created for another reason (Genesis 9:2-3). God doesn’t want animals to be like Him or to love Him.

Animals actions are not evil, just as human actions are not evil. But, as we have better understanding and a need to IMPROVE, we can sin. We can do things that we know are bad, and we do those things because we either a) want to be evil; or b) don’t love God. Both of which are bad things.

Can we drop this already? We already established that whatever animals do DOES NOT mirror what we humans should do.

 

[lileli]

You still are missing the point.

If I kill a man, I am acting against Morals, because I am a moral being, and am bound by moral laws. The police will arrest me and I will be judged by my actions.

If a dolphin kills another dolphin, they are NOT acting against Morals, because they are NOT moral beings, and are NOT bound by moral laws. NO dolphin police is going to arrest him, and he won’t be judged by his actions.

The action of group rape is immoral in OUR society, but not on dolphin’s society.

Dolphins can’t be moral or immoral because they have NO MORAL LAWS.

You are judging a “moral dolphin” based on YOUR morality. YOUR understanding that group rape is wrong makes YOU judge dolphin as bad.

Empathy is not morality. Intelligence is not morality. Reasoning is not morality.

Morality is something else entirely.

I think you need to look into dolphin society a little more. Yes, our experiments are limited since we don’t literally observe the world in the same way as they do (differentstrength of senses) but to completely discount positive morality is just superimposing a glorification of mankind that isn’t justified. There are humans today that have never heard of any religion etc ( tribes we haven’t made contact with) are we to judge them as immoral just Bease they have never learned of the concept of sin?

 

[davidv]

I think you need to look into dolphin society a little more.

What does dolphin society have to do with human morality?

Yes, our experiments are limited since we don’t literally observe the world in the same way as they do (differentstrength of senses) but to completely discount positive morality is just superimposing a glorification of mankind that isn’t justified. There are humans today that have never heard of any religion etc ( tribes we haven’t made contact with) are we to judge them as immoral just Bease they have never learned of the concept of sin?

 

[Wesrock]

I think you need to look into dolphin society a little more. Yes, our experiments are limited since we don’t literally observe the world in the same way as they do (differentstrength of senses) but to completely discount positive morality is just superimposing a glorification of mankind that isn’t justified. There are humans today that have never heard of any religion etc ( tribes we haven’t made contact with) are we to judge them as immoral just Bease they have never learned of the concept of sin?

Dolphins are not created in God’s image.

As for those who haven’t heard the gospel, the Church understands that there are situations of “invincible ignorance.” The Catechism discusses this in detail, and there are other sources as well.

lileli, is scripture infallible? Do humans have immortal souls different from that of animals? Was mankind made in God’s image, unlike the animals? I feel like there are other differences between us that are at the heart of this side of the debate.

 

[lileli]

Dolphins are not created in God’s image.

As for those who haven’t heard the gospel, the Church understands that there are situations of “invincible ignorance.” The Catechism discusses this in detail, and there are other sources as well.

lileli, is scripture infallible? Do humans have immortal souls different from that of animals? Was mankind made in God’s image, unlike the animals? I feel like there are other differences between us that are at the heart of this side of the debate.

Scripture should not be taken literally in all instances and historical/cultural perspectives should always be considered. Humans have immortal souls and we are spirits with a human body as vessel.I believe all of creation was made in God’s image, including other animals. Any dominate species would obviously love to think they are completely unique(we are but so are other animals) but I think that is more about our arrogance. Yes, we are made in the lord’s image, an image reflected in all of creation.

 

[Wesrock]

I think where we disagree is on what’s created in God’s image. We may also have different ideas on what that phrase means and be more in agreement on actual substance in some areas than we may think. I’m working at this time, and I’d like to read up on this before explaining my understanding. And I think scripture, even if not taken literally, does clearly demonstrate that man has dominion/stewardship over other animals and plants. I agree though that historical context, audience, authorship, etc… are important factors and that we shouldn’t be reading without this context, and that not everything is literal in every sense.

But to back off that depth… Animals eat their own young. They attack and murder each other within their own species for reasons that would not be justifiable for humans. They commit what we’d consider rape.

There’s a lot of good to be found in animals, don’t get me wrong. Some are very, very intelligent and deserve better respect from us than we give. But how are we to use them as a model or reasonable behavior when they also do things that are unjustifiable in human society?

 

[CHRISTINE77]

That still doesn’t explain why God allows animals to do things that are sinful for humans to do. Why did He create the animals in such a way that they would do these things in the first place since they apparently don’t have any free will like humans do? If masturbating is bad for humans, then why wouldn’t it also be bad for animals even if they won’t be punished for doing it?

I really don’t think masturbation is big in the animal world if that’s where you’re going with this. Most animals just mate and get it over with. If there are a few animals gone wrong, so be it, it certainly isn’t a good model. Why do you want to justify odd behavior with exceptions that happen in the animal world anyway? Seems like a huge stretch of the imagination!

 

[lileli]

I think where we disagree is on what’s created in God’s image. We may also have different ideas on what that phrase means and be more in agreement on actual substance in some areas than we may think. I’m working at this time, and I’d like to read up on this before explaining my understanding. And I think scripture, even if not taken literally, does clearly demonstrate that man has dominion/stewardship over other animals and plants. I agree though that historical context, audience, authorship, etc… are important factors and that we shouldn’t be reading without this context, and that not everything is literal in every sense.

But to back off that depth… Animals eat their own young. They attack and murder each other within their own species for reasons that would not be justifiable for humans. They commit what we’d consider rape.

There’s a lot of good to be found in animals, don’t get me wrong. Some are very, very intelligent and deserve better respect from us than we give. But how are we to use them as a model or reasonable behavior when they also do things that are unjustifiable in human society?

Not every animal eats their young. That’s mostly spiders and the ones that do usually only eat the sick and we’ll ones. It’s how God programmed them.

 

[lileli]

I really don’t think masturbation is big in the animal world if that’s where you’re going with this. Most animals just mate and get it over with. If there are a few animals gone wrong, so be it, it certainly isn’t a good model. Why do you want to justify odd behavior with exceptions that happen in the animal world anyway? Seems like a huge stretch of the imagination!

Many animals literally only get the urge to have sex during the mating season. We weren’t wired that way and I wonder why?

 

[billcu1]

Many animals literally only get the urge to have sex during the mating season. We weren’t wired that way and I wonder why?

Here’s the important thing here. We have been told through those such as Jesus or Moses that God does not like such things. In this instance Masturbation. Is it de facto bad? For us right now yes. That’s the message. Long, long in the future such things might not be a struggle but now it is. We are to be reaching up. Trying to overcome the animal nature. Progress. Not reach down. No pun in tended. In serious spiritual work. You mentioned Buddhism, you are going to get the same thing. The strong sex force in us needs to rise into the brain. The unused sex force rises. How do you progress when you are constantly forcing it down and wasting it. Yes you can in marriage have sex. But others go celibate for life extension or whatever. Reaching to the animal in regressing. We are to strive for better and it can be done. But it is ultimately up to you. It takes discipline.

 

[lileli]

Here’s the important thing here. We have been told through those such as Jesus or Moses that God does not like such things. In this instance Masturbation. Is it de facto bad? For us right now yes. That’s the message. Long, long in the future such things might not be a struggle but now it is. We are to be reaching up. Trying to overcome the animal nature. Progress. Not reach down. No pun in tended. In serious spiritual work. You mentioned Buddhism, you are going to get the same thing. The strong sex force in us needs to rise into the brain. The unused sex force rises. How do you progress when you are constantly forcing it down and wasting it. Yes you can in marriage have sex. But others go celibate for life extension or whatever. Reaching to the animal in regressing. We are to strive for better and it can be done. But it is ultimately up to you. It takes discipline.

What? Buddhism? No that’s not me.

 

[billcu1]

What? Buddhism? No that’s not me.

Ok well maybe it was someone else. I know by my experiences with this I think it for me, as others have mentioned; this is an addiction. Since I am the OP my original question was the psychological factors that went into this. I appreciate all the (name removed by moderator)ut and I hope this thread has helped others as much as me. I am planning on going to Mass tomorrow. I haven’t been there in about a year for various reasons, one being slothfulness. Other times transportation difficulty and licit things coming up. Well thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

 

[CHRISTINE77]

Many animals literally only get the urge to have sex during the mating season. We weren’t wired that way and I wonder why?

Why does it make sense to masturbate since apes do, but not make sense to **not **masturbate since the majority of animals don’t? I wonder why?

 

[lileli]

Why does it make sense to masturbate since apes do, but not make sense to **not **masturbate since the majority of animals don’t? I wonder why?

It is the way we are wired dear. Humans are designed to have lots of sex and it is probably the only reason we survived in the wild for so long. Animals that are wired to experience sex for pleasure do so and thats just being human.

 

[Rau]

All my claims are valid. Exploring one’s I mean masturbation which the Church claims is very sinful I was told that I wearing tight jeans was sinful since it causes others to sin! It just isn’t healthy .

While exploring, what did you discover? Stimulation causes erection and more causes orgasm and ejaculation? Good to know… I would have thought the more pertinent exploration to ones future would be had on dates - as per my post 143. Sex is not normally a solo activity.

 

[Wesrock]

Ok well maybe it was someone else. I know by my experiences with this I think it for me, as others have mentioned; this is an addiction. Since I am the OP my original question was the psychological factors that went into this. I appreciate all the (name removed by moderator)ut and I hope this thread has helped others as much as me. I am planning on going to Mass tomorrow. I haven’t been there in about a year for various reasons, one being slothfulness. Other times transportation difficulty and licit things coming up. Well thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut.

Glad to hear it! Is it appropriate to say welcome back? If so… WELCOME BACK!

I think many of us have those things we struggle with daily. I think as long as we are aware of it, trying to break our habits, and going to confession frequently/as needed, we’re on the right track. We shouldn’t be disheartened about losing individual battles, even if we lose a lot, as long as we keep fighting the war and don’t give up.

 

[Rau]

Sexual desire that results from “lust”, yes. On the matter of wet dreams, if one enjoyed said dream a lot, then yes according to what I was taught.

But you are an adult now . And you know that one cannot sin when asleep, dreaming or in any situation where a free choir is not possible.

 

[Rau]

I think this is where historical context needs to be considered. When Jesus addressed the lust issue there was a rampant amount of cheating going on. Meaning, men were sleeping with married women, which is clearly wrong. Therefore Jesus addressed the conflict head on.

. That’s a novel interpretation. You must have access to 1st Century crime statistics! Very funny.

 

[lileli]

Addiction no matter is always awful. I recommend getting a CSAT therapist, joining a 12 step program and start exercising! Yes exercise can balance out dopamine levels in your brain. But definitely seek out a CSAT therapist. Blessings.