Matt 16:18 - I want more insight

[Janet_S]

All your answers are a distraction from the truth your avoiding the the biblical responces iam giving you and answering with Your perspective and not Gods word. Answer to the responses i gave you. that there is no proof of supremacy of Peter over any of the other Apostles and that the church is not built on Peter but his confession. I even gave you your own doctrine from the CCC to back that up which you just shurrged off.I shared in my first post, if you cant back up what you say by the word of God you have no leg to stand on.And the scripture verses you used and implied that possibly we dont have.Where exactly do these prove Peters supremacy or the office of Pope.Show me.

Micas,

You addressed this question to NotWorthy. Here is the Biblical support (19 verses) for the office of the papacy.
salvationhistory.com/library/scripture/churchandbible/homilyhelps/ordinary21_a.cfm

“Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God!” Paul exclaims in today’s Epistle. Today’s Psalm, too, takes up the triumphant note of joy and thanksgiving. Why? Because in the Gospel, the heavenly Father reveals the mystery of His kingdom to Peter.

With Peter, we rejoice that Jesus is the anointed son promised to David, the one prophesied to build God’s temple and reign over an everlasting kingdom (see 2 Samuel 7).

What Jesus calls “my Church” is the kingdom promised to David’s son(see Isaiah 9:1-7). As we hear in today’s First Reading, Isaiah foretold that the keys to David’s kingdom would be given to a new master, who would rule as father to God’s people.

Jesus, the root and offspring of David, alone holds the kingdom’s keys (see Revelation 1:18; 3:7; 22:16). In giving those keys to Peter, Jesus fulfills that prophecy, establishing Peter - and all who succeed him - as holy father of His Church.

His Church, too, is the new house of God - the spiritual temple founded on the “rock” of Peter, and built up out of the living stones of individual believers (see 1 Peter 2:5).
Abraham was called “the rock” from which the children of Israel were hewn (see Isaiah 51:1-2). And Peter becomes the rock from which God raises up new children of God (see Matthew 3:9).

The word Jesus uses - “church” (ekklesia in Greek) - was used in the Greek translation of the Old Testament for the “assembly” of God’s children after the exodus (see Deuteronomy 18:16; 31:30).

His Church is the “assembly of the firstborn” (see Hebrews 12:23; Exodus 4:23-24), established by Jesus’ exodus (see Luke 9:31). Like the Israelites, we are baptized in water, led by the Rock, and fed with spiritual food (see 1 Corinthians 10:1-5).

Gathered at His altar, in the presence of angels, we sing His praise and give thanks to His holy name.

In the Gospel for the Twenty-first Sunday in Ordinary Time, Jesus gives Peter the “keys to the kingdom of heaven” and the powers to “bind and loose.”

In this He fulfills a prophecy of Isaiah (see Isaiah 22:15-24). In the Davidic kingdom, the king appointed a prime minister to handle the kingdom’s day-to-day affairs. Peter is being appointed prime minister of the restored kingdom of David, the Church.

The “keys” are a symbol of the king’s power, authority, and control (see Revelation 1:18; 3:7).

The reference to “binding” and “loosing” is a familiar allusion to the rabbis’ powers to declare what is permitted and what is not permitted. As prime minister of the kingdom of heaven, Peter is being made “chief rabbi,” with ultimate authority to teach and to declare what will be allowed and what will not.

Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and scribes for locking the kingdom of heaven and barring entrance to those trying to enter (see Matthew 23:13).

In the new kingdom, their authority has been given to Peter (see also Matthew 21:43). In the Church - a kingdom both earthly and temporal and heavenly and eternal - Peter and his successors will bind and loose, opening the gates of salvation for all who would enter.

And in the Book of Acts, Peter is clearly shown as the Church’s chief teacher (4:1-22), preacher (2:14-42), judge (5:1-11), healer (5:15), and administrator (1:15-26).

 

[NotWorthy]

Janet, my answer wasn’t good enough?

 

[Janet_S]

To Micas:

Why did Jesus change Peter’s name from Simon to Cephas/Petros (=rock)?

 

[micas]

NotWorthy:
OK, if we must. But it seems we’ve done this, oh, about a million times.

By the way, Paar, you do a WONDERFUL job of bridging gaps, my friend. I don’t think you’ve answered a single one of my responses to your mis-representations of the Bible.

A) Isaiah 22:20-25
Here, we see the Old Testament type to the New Testament Papacy. One can easily see the correlation between this passage and Matthew 16. The role of Eliakim will be the Prime Minister, who will rule in Israel in the absense of the King.

Let’s see, “Father”. Where do we get the word Pope from? Hmmmm, it comes from the word Papa. The keys are obviously the symbol of authority. The opening and shut are clear references to binding and loosing (Both connote the authority to make laws and rescind laws).
This, and the replacement of the predecessor show that this is an OFFICE. Not just a position held by a person, but an office that will have replacements.

Now here, my Christian brothers tend to grasp at a perceived weakness in the Papacy, for Eliakim’s peg will break. This is a fallacious argument, in my opinion, for Jesus clearly leaves this part out.

Would you like me to continue with ACTS, where Peter displays his power to bind and loose?
YAAAAAAAwn thats ridiculos Alls that is showing is how Shebna was cast a side and Eliakim replaced him to a place of honor .The key to the house of David refering to authority to admit or refuse admitance into the kings presence showed that the king had great confidence in him,which Jesus used as referance to himself as the one who would determine who would enter His future Davidic kingdom.(Rev.3:7) I dont see any pope there and Jesus said call no one Father you have a Father in heaven(Matt.23:9) And no thats enough of your bible interpetation for 1day

 

[micas]

To Micas:

Why did Jesus change Peter’s name from Simon to Cephas/Petros (=rock)?

Why dont you Grace us all with your Catholic interpetation so i can refute it

 

[NotWorthy]

YAAAAAAAwn thats ridiculos Alls that is showing is how Shebna was cast a side and Eliakim replaced him to a place of honor .The key to the house of David refering to authority to admit or refuse admitance into the kings presence showed that the king had great confidence in him,which Jesus used as referance to himself as the one who would determine who would enter His future Davidic kingdom.(Rev.3:7) I dont see any pope there and Jesus said call no one Father you have a Father in heaven(Matt.23:9) And no thats enough of your bible interpetation for 1day

All Scripture is profitable for teaching… I’m surprised that YOU forgot that.

“Lock and Unlock” does not mean admit into the Kings presence, but nice try. It is a symbol of the authority given to the Prime Minister. That which places him in the kings seat in the kings absence. Someone has to run the Kingdom when the King is abroad, don’t they?

Just like “Bind and Loose” refers to to a real authority that the Jewish leaders held in Jesus time. He even referred to the “Seat of Moses” as a teaching authority, sort of like the “Chair of Peter” in the New Covenant Church. It’s Amazing how so much of the Catholic Faith is Biblical, once you take a closer look!

The Father crack is a good one, too. It seems every major faith used the term “Father” to describe their religious pastors until the mid 1800’s. Evidently, they all realized that Jesus was speaking symbollically, for even Paul used the term “Father” for himself and others. Sadly, that kind of scholarship seems to be lacking in many faiths today.

 

[NotWorthy]

Why dont you Grace us all with your Catholic interpetation so i can refute it

People in glass house, my friend.

Weren’t you the one chastising me for not answering questions?

 

[Janet_S]

Why dont you Grace us all with your Catholic interpetation so i can refute it

I guess you can’t think of a good reason. Keep thinking about it. If you come up with anything, let me know.

 

[SFLCatholic]

Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.(1 Thess.4:16-17).

Show me where in the Bible it actually says rapture? Then show me the authority for this belief.

The verse you quoted does not explain or legitimize the rapture.

Using your interpretation above with the twisted around meaning for “caught up”, is a flight of fancy. This is not a true belief. Rapture thnking is a doctrine of devils.

Its apparent that you use re-interpretations of the Bible to create you own ends. If you followed a true reading of the Bible, you would see that your thinking is way off target on the matter of Peter’s authority and the rapture.

 

[micas]

Micas,

You addressed this question to NotWorthy. Here is the Biblical support (19 verses) for the office of the papacy.
salvationhistory.com/library/scripture/churchandbible/homilyhelps/ordinary21_a.cfm

“Oh, the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God!” Paul exclaims in today’s Epistle. Today’s Psalm, too, takes up the triumphant note of joy and thanksgiving. Why? Because in the Gospel, the heavenly Father reveals the mystery of His kingdom to Peter.

With Peter, we rejoice that Jesus is the anointed son promised to David, the one prophesied to build God’s temple and reign over an everlasting kingdom (see 2 Samuel 7).

What Jesus calls “my Church” is the kingdom promised to David’s son(see Isaiah 9:1-7). As we hear in today’s First Reading, Isaiah foretold that the keys to David’s kingdom would be given to a new master, who would rule as father to God’s people.

Jesus, the root and offspring of David, alone holds the kingdom’s keys (see Revelation 1:18; 3:7; 22:16). In giving those keys to Peter, Jesus fulfills that prophecy, establishing Peter - and all who succeed him - as holy father of His Church.

His Church, too, is the new house of God - the spiritual temple founded on the “rock” of Peter, and built up out of the living stones of individual believers (see 1 Peter 2:5).
Abraham was called “the rock” from which the children of Israel were hewn (see Isaiah 51:1-2). And Peter becomes the rock from which God raises up new children of God (see Matthew 3:9).

The word Jesus uses - “church” (ekklesia in Greek) - was used in the Greek translation of the Old Testament for the “assembly” of God’s children after the exodus (see Deuteronomy 18:16; 31:30).

His Church is the “assembly of the firstborn” (see Hebrews 12:23; Exodus 4:23-24), established by Jesus’ exodus (see Luke 9:31). Like the Israelites, we are baptized in water, led by the Rock, and fed with spiritual food (see 1 Corinthians 10:1-5).

Gathered at His altar, in the presence of angels, we sing His praise and give thanks to His holy name.

In the Gospel for the Twenty-first Sunday in Ordinary Time, Jesus gives Peter the “keys to the kingdom of heaven” and the powers to “bind and loose.”

In this He fulfills a prophecy of Isaiah (see Isaiah 22:15-24). In the Davidic kingdom, the king appointed a prime minister to handle the kingdom’s day-to-day affairs. Peter is being appointed prime minister of the restored kingdom of David, the Church.

The “keys” are a symbol of the king’s power, authority, and control (see Revelation 1:18; 3:7).

The reference to “binding” and “loosing” is a familiar allusion to the rabbis’ powers to declare what is permitted and what is not permitted. As prime minister of the kingdom of heaven, Peter is being made “chief rabbi,” with ultimate authority to teach and to declare what will be allowed and what will not.

Jesus rebuked the Pharisees and scribes for locking the kingdom of heaven and barring entrance to those trying to enter (see Matthew 23:13).

In the new kingdom, their authority has been given to Peter (see also Matthew 21:43). In the Church - a kingdom both earthly and temporal and heavenly and eternal - Peter and his successors will bind and loose, opening the gates of salvation for all who would enter.

And in the Book of Acts, Peter is clearly shown as the Church’s chief teacher (4:1-22), preacher (2:14-42), judge (5:1-11), healer (5:15), and administrator (1:15-26).

thats a bunch of reading into scripture were ther is nothing there Iam sure you and other Catholics who have been programed to believe such nonsence, will believe that romanist propaganda .But if some person who just happened to be reading those verses and thought to himelf yes thats speaking of an office of authority called the papacy,and there will be a ruler over Gods people. By the way their Nicolaitans Jesus hates them( Rev.2:15) The RCC takes scripture to try and make it fit there false religious system.

 

[NotWorthy]

thats a bunch of reading into scripture were ther is nothing there Iam sure you and other Catholics who have been programed to believe such nonsence, will believe that romanist propaganda .But if some person who just happened to be reading those verses and thought to himelf yes thats speaking of an office of authority called the papacy,and there will be a ruler over Gods people. By the way their Nicolaitans Jesus hates them( Rev.2:15) The RCC takes scripture to try and make it fit there false religious system.

You know, it would be a good idea to take maybe the first three and refute them. Then you could throw mud on the rest and you’ll have some creedence.

BTW, who are the Nicolations, anyway?
*** Likewise, you also have some people who hold to the teaching of (the) Nicolaitans.***

 

[micas]

How does Peter show the powers to Bind and Loose?

Look at Acts chapter 1, it’s all in there.

When Peter decides to replace Judas’ position, does he consult and take a vote? No, he decides that Judas office (notice he uses the term “office” or “bishopric” Do any of you guys have bishops in your faith?) must be filled with someone new. He also decides how it is going to happen? What happens? It seems everyone acquiesces to Peter’s decision.

Let’s look at chapter 10. Who is the first to accept the Gentiles into the New Covenant Church? Peter. Did he consult anyone? no.

Go to Chapter 15. As everyone is arguing over the laws of Circumcision and whether the Gentile brothers should be bound by them, it is Peter who stands up and declares that the Gentiles should not be bound by the yoke of the Mosaic Law, “and all were silent”. This is Jewish Speak for “Case-Closed”.

But wait, Paul speaks next, “and all were silent”. But listen to Paul’s words. He explains that the Holy Spirit has been working among the Gentiles already. Paul is merely adding his backing to Peter’s words.

But wait, James speaks next, even saying “therefore, it is my decision”. Why does James make a decision. For one, because the council was in his city. For another, his decision is based on Peter’s edict “Ah, that’s what ‘therefore’ is there for…”!!! And James merely elicits a discipline, not anything infallible like Peter did. Notice Peter’s edicts (ch.'s 1, 10, & 15) are never reversed, even to this day, while James edict (a discipline) is reversed later on in Paul’s Epistles.

But wait, if Peter is infallible, why does Paul have to correct him? Paul doesn’t correct Peter’s teachings, he corrects Peter’s actions, for it is his actions that are wrong. No one ever claimed the Pope is impeccable. Jesus knew that Peter was imperfect by just observing him, with his denials and his frequent outbursts, but yet He still chose him to lead His Church.

No, instead, it is Paul who goes to Peter to verify that Paul’s teachings are accurate. He does this before he ever goes out preaching, even though Jesus had clearly given him authority to teach.

And Paul withstood him to his face Gal.2:11 Good night it was fun I pray no ones feelings were hurt to badly.Just to let you know I was a Catholic for 44 yrs I recieved Jesus Christ as my Lord and savior four years ago and Ive been on fire For the Lord ever sence Come quicly Lord Jesus

 

[NotWorthy]

And Paul withstood him to his face Gal.2:11 Good night it was fun I pray no ones feelings were hurt to badly.Just to let you know I was a Catholic for 44 yrs I recieved Jesus Christ as my Lord and savior four years ago and Ive been on fire For the Lord ever sence Come quicly Lord Jesus

Yes, Paul withstood him as he should have. Just like St. Theresa stood up to the Pope when it was past time to move back to the Vatican from France. Just like numerous people have stood up to the Pope.

Again, like I said the first time, Paul stood up to Peter not because he was teaching in error (something a Pope cannot due when teaching “Ex Cathedra”), but because he wasn’t practicing what he was preaching.

I’m sorry that you left the Church that gives you the Living Body of Christ each and every day should you choose. I’ll pray that you realize that every right-thinking Catholic receives the Lord as his savior. You didn’t need to leave the Church to find that out!!!

 

[micas]

Amen, my brother, say it!!! You are spot on with good sound Catholic doctrine!!!

Ooooh, you lost me there. And you were so close!

I’ll let others handle that! Just that this is a Tradition of Man introduced in the mid 1800’s. It’s interesting that the Holy Spirit waited 1800 years to guide Christians to this truth!

BTW, paragraphs and a few spaces would be nice, my brother!

Thats a tradition of man introduced in the 1800s. funning though how the apostle Paul wrote about it 2000 yrs ago .Imagine that P.S. sorry iam not good at spacing

 

[NotWorthy]

Thats a tradition of man introduced in the 1800s. funning though how the apostle Paul wrote about it 2000 yrs ago .Imagine that

And then the Holy Spirit was silent on this for the next 1800 years. He taught nobody to interpret this Scripture in this way for so long?

No, Paul wrote about the 2nd coming - Judgment day. One event, not two.

The Rapture Theory was invented in the 1800’s.

 

[micas]

Paul wrote about the 2nd coming - Judgment day. One event, not two.

The Rapture Theory was invented in the 1800’s.

You just read about to complely different events. and you just shrug it off. you are free to believe what you want but know this the kingdom of God came near you today.

 

[NotWorthy]

You just read about to complely different events. and you just shrug it off. you are free to believe what you want but know this the kingdom of God came near you today.

micas, please understand me. I may pick with you, and I certainly don’t mind someone picking with me.

But when it comes to Scripture, I don’t just shrug anything off. I have a tremendous love for the Scriptures. Please don’t think that since I’m Catholic, I don’t love the Scriptures with all my heart!

I’ve studied the Rapture. It doesn’t jive.

Do a google search on the Rapture, and you will find numerous people with numerous revelations directly from God knowing exactly what’s going to happen during the Tribulations and the Rapture. And you know what? They are all different!!! The Holy Spirit doesn’t work that way, my friend.

It’s late, micas, and you previously said Good Night! So I say to you, Good Night, too! I know that you love the Lord, and you are certainly a credit to your faith. But please remember that we Catholics love the Lord no less than you. Maybe we can settle this one day in the Kingdom of God as we laugh at all the things we said here on earth!

 

[micas]

All Scripture is profitable for teaching… I’m surprised that YOU forgot that.

“Lock and Unlock” does not mean admit into the Kings presence, but nice try. It is a symbol of the authority given to the Prime Minister. That which places him in the kings seat in the kings absence. Someone has to run the Kingdom when the King is abroad, don’t they?

Just like “Bind and Loose” refers to to a real authority that the Jewish leaders held in Jesus time. He even referred to the “Seat of Moses” as a teaching authority, sort of like the “Chair of Peter” in the New Covenant Church. It’s Amazing how so much of the Catholic Faith is Biblical, once you take a closer look!

The Father crack is a good one, too. It seems every major faith used the term “Father” to describe their religious pastors until the mid 1800’s. Evidently, they all realized that Jesus was speaking symbollically, for even Paul used the term “Father” for himself and others. Sadly, that kind of scholarship seems to be lacking in many faiths today.

Ya and that authority is given to Jesus didnt you read( Rev.3:11 )Jesus uses the same referrance about himself.And Paul calls timothy a son in the faith.timothy doesnt call Paul father.Oh we no Its a spiritual term .thats why to have the nerve to take a name ment for our spiritual Father alone is blasphemey.Id be careful going around calling the pope Holy Father.That title is for God alone

 

[NotWorthy]

Ya and that authority is given to Jesus didnt you read( Rev.3:11 )Jesus uses the same referrance about himself.And Paul calls timothy a son in the faith.timothy doesnt call Paul father.Oh we no Its a spiritual term .thats why to have the nerve to take a name ment for our spiritual Father alone is blasphemey.Id be careful going around calling the pope Holy Father.That title is for God alone

And just when I thought we were going to be friends…

Yes, Jesus was given all authority. What does he do with it? Matthew tells us. He gives it to the Apostles. All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you…

We know that God alone has the power to forgive men’s sins. And yet John tells us that Jesus gave this authority to the Apostles. "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you." And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained. Notice that Jesus says, “As the Father has sent me”. It was the Father Who gave Jesus authority, Jesus says this Himself. Now Jesus passes on that authority to the Apostles.

BTW, In John 8:56, Jesus Himself used the term, for Abraham:*** "Abraham your father** rejoiced that he was to see my day* . . .

Paul tells the Philippians that the proof of Timothy’s loyalty is to be found in the fact that he had served Paul in the Gospel as “a Son with the FATHER.” (Phil. 2:22) micas, are saying that Paul means “a Son with the Lord our God”? Paul is comparing himself to God? I don’t think so!!!

BTW, spaces and paragraphs would sure be nice. It’s late and hard to separate what you are saying with it bunched up like that.

 

[Janet_S]

thats a bunch of reading into scripture were ther is nothing there Iam sure you and other Catholics who have been programed to believe such nonsence, will believe that romanist propaganda .But if some person who just happened to be reading those verses and thought to himelf yes thats speaking of an office of authority called the papacy,and there will be a ruler over Gods people. By the way their Nicolaitans Jesus hates them( Rev.2:15) The RCC takes scripture to try and make it fit there false religious system.

I knew you would say that! (Except the part about the Nicolaitans; who could have guessed.)