Matt 16:18 - I want more insight

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But wait, if Peter is infallible, why does Paul have to correct him?
Hi
Neither Peter nor Paul are infallible, they are human beings; the question does not arise that they are infallible? Since, Peter was educated and trained by Jesus he is to be preferred. Well that is my view, your view could be different, no compulsion.
Thanks
Bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions
 
I thought you all might be interested in looking at this Chick Tract, “The Deceived.” This is an interesting tale of how the Muslim religion “really” began.
chick.com/reading/tracts/0029/0029_01.asp
Paarsurrey, I am interested in your opinion on this particular Chick Tract.
Hi
The tract among other things reads:
“When Jesus Christ shed His blood, He washed away our sins and freed us from demonic control.
He died, was buried, rose from the dead, and is now in heaven.”

I have read the tract as suggested to me by friend/sister Janet . Since I am to bridge gaps between the religions and not to create a wedge, though there are many things in the tract which are untrue, yet my comments on that may not be of your liking, and I love Christians and respect their faith. So I won’t delve on everything mentioned in them.
In such a position it would be more appropriate if one delves on things which are the crux of the issue. The present Christian faith (more truly and realistically speaking not Jesus’ real faith; but it consist of the Pauline mythical and imaginative doctrines) **is based on the Jesus death on Cross **which in fact never happened. If we look into Jesus’ own words, historical evidences, archaeological , medical and scientific evidences etc, etc, it gets established beyond doubt that Jesus never died on Cross. For that we cannot rely on what has been mentioned by the scribes literally; if that does not match with Jesus’ words, as Jesus’ own Witnessing has to be preferred, my Christian friends, brothers, sisters would agree with me. In fact, we shall have to **Cross-examine **everything available and every character mentioned; after all a **third degree murder **is involved , as per the Western custom in vogue, everything and everyone would be looked with suspicions and doubt and nothing would be taken for granted.
Thanks
Bridging gaps between the faiths/denominations/religions
 
By the way their Nicolaitans Jesus hates them( Rev.2:15)
“Likewise, you also have some people who hold to the teaching of (the) Nicolaitans. Rev 2:15”

Explain how this verse says that Jesus hates, as you say it does.
 
The key to the house of David refering to authority to admit or refuse admitance into the kings presence showed that the king had great confidence in him,which Jesus used as referance to himself as the one who would determine who would enter His future Davidic kingdom.(Rev.3:7)

Yes that’s exactly right. And Jesus gave that authority to Peter in Matt 16:18. Here’s Reve 3:7 says:

"“To the angel of the church in Philadelphia, write this: " 'The holy one, the true, who holds the key of David, who opens and no one shall close, who closes and no one shall open, says this:” Rev 3:7
 
Thats a tradition of man introduced in the 1800s. funning though how the apostle Paul wrote about it 2000 yrs ago .Imagine that:rolleyes: P.S. sorry iam not good at spacing
Show me where Paul said anything about the rapture. The term rapture does not appear in the Bible. Its not there.

Your interpretation of Thes 4:17 does not say rapture. Scofield’s use of the Latin Vulgate to re-interpret “caught up” is a doctrine of devils.

Scofield has done more damage than Luther in leading honest Chrisitians like yourself, away from the true teachings of Christ and His church.

I put you in my Rosary prayers this a.m. I pray continually that all you rapture believers will drop that non-sense and come to the truth. I know you heart is in the right place, but you are being led astray.

Read this article from a pastor of your flavor:

jacksonvilleprogress.com/…100170558.html

The link might not work. So, here’s a cut and paste of it.

Published: April 10, 2007 05:05 pm

Pastor: Rapture teaching a ‘myth’

Special to the Progress

According to popular religious opinion, non-Christians will be “left behind” at the Second Coming of Christ.

“Exactly backwards,” says Jacksonville native and Dallas area pastor Dr. Harold Brunson, Jr.

“Christians, not non-Christians, will be ‘left behind’ at the second coming of Christ. The idea of a secret rapture of the church is just a myth, created about 175 years ago by the British theologian Jon Nelson Darby and popularized in America by the Scofield Bible. Before then, the orthodox church knew nothing of such an absurd idea. But now many, perhaps most conservative Christians have mistakenly embraced that myth.”

That’s just one sensational claim in Dr. Brunson’s new book, Who is Israel? What is a Jew? Where is Jerusalem?

Brunson also says that the reestablishment of Israel as a sovereign nation in 1948 has “no prophetic significance whatsoever.” In fact, Brunson claims, “The terms ‘Israel,’ ‘Jew,’ and ‘Jerusalem’ no longer designate an ethno-centric nation or a geographical location. The writers of the New Testament, especially the Apostle Paul, redefined these terms so as to identify ‘Israel’ as a composite term for all Christians, ‘Jew’ as a reference to the spiritually circumcised, and ‘Jerusalem’ as a heavenly locus to describe the state of grace, not the state of Israel.”

In a mammoth 466-page diatribe, Brunson takes on such formidable theological adversaries as Dallas Theological Seminary, Tim LaHaye, John MacArthur, and Charles Swindoll.

“Those are fine, Christian institutions and individuals,” Brunson says, “they’re just wrong, dead wrong, and they are misleading millions of conservative Christians. Prophecy is a secondary issue among conservative Christians, but when secondary error becomes broadly accepted, it must be challenged head-on. My book does that.”

According to Brunson, who describes himself as “ultra-conservative and reformed,” the contemporary church needs what he calls “a prophetic reformation. The vulnerability of the contemporary church to embrace such a sensationally wrong idea just indicates deeper problems in the church, especially a lack of biblical discernment.”

Dr. Brunson founded and has pastored the First Baptist Church of Parker, Texas, since 1987. He has also served as a college professor, and as an administrator and teacher in Christian schools. A graduate of the BMA Seminary in Jacksonville, Dr. Brunson holds the Ph.D. in Humanities from the University of Texas at Dallas.

Published by iUniverse (ISBN 978-0-595-41992-0), Dr. Brunson’s book is available through any bookstore.

Dr. Harold Brunson’s book, right.
 
No, Paul wrote about the 2nd coming - Judgment day. One event, not two.
Paul was also writing this with the expectation that Christ’s return was going to happen in his lifetime. Paul was expecting a more immediate return of Jesus.

“Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep.” 1 Thes 4:15
 
In fact, we shall have to **Cross-examine **everything available and every character mentioned; after all a **third degree murder **is involved , as per the Western custom in vogue, everything and everyone would be looked with suspicions and doubt and nothing would be taken for granted.
OK, since you want to apply legal formalities to your claim, we should look to Rules of Evidence. And since the people we need to cross examine are unavailable as witnesses, we can use the sworn testimony they left us.

There is also the rule for the use of ancient documents of which the Bible is the prime example. This can be admitted of its own merit.

So, going back ot your claim that Jesus never dies on the cross, you would have to provide proof stronger than the self-authenticating evidence than the Bible provides us. Archeological, historical, etc., won’t trump Biblical evidence in a court of law like you are positing.

It may prove to be persuasive, but it won’t win.

So, now show me where it says in the Bible that Jesus did no die on the cross? Or are you not witnessing out of the NT Bible anymore?
 
Hi
Neither Peter nor Paul are infallible, they are human beings; the question does not arise that they are infallible? Since, Peter was educated and trained by Jesus he is to be preferred. Well that is my view, your view could be different, no compulsion.
Thanks
Bridging gaps between faiths/denominations/religions
No one has claimed that Peter, Paul or anyone else in the Church is infallible (except, of course, Jesus). What we teach is that Peter teaches infallibly. Big difference.

In John, Jesus tells the Apsotles that He will send the Holy Spirit to guide them in all truths.

If Peter is teaching with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, then how could Jesus preach a falsehood? We see a perfect example of this in Acts Chapter 2-3 at Pentecost, in chapter 10, when the New Covenant is opened up to the Gentiles, and in 15, when the Law of Circumcision (the the rest of the Mosiac Laws) is lifted from the Gentiles.

Note: the four stipulations that James puts on the Gentiles are considered “noahide” rules.

The 10 commandments are part of the Natural Law. That’s why we’re still under their compulsion.
 
Yes ;For the Lord himself will decend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel,and with the trumpet of God,and the dead in Christ will rise first.Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up (from the Latin vulgate Rapturos,were we get the english word rapture) with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.(1 Thess.4:16-17).Behold,I tell you a mystery:We shall not all sleep,but we shall be changed—in a moment ,in the twinkling of an eye,at the last trumpet.For the trumpet will sound,and the dead will be rased incorruptible,and we shall be changed(.1 Cor 15:51-52). Not to be confused with the Lords second coming which is a different event all together when the whole world will witness it.Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened,and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from the heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven,and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn,and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.And He will send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet ,and they will gather His elect from the four winds,from one end of heaven to the other.(Matt.24:29-31).Two completly different events.All so In (Rev.5:8-10 ) we see the 24 elders Jesus as a slain lamb and the redeemed sang a new song.You are worthy to take the scroll and to open its seals; for you were slain, And have redeemed us to God by your blood Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, And have made us Kings and priest to our God; and we shall regin on the earth. Who but the church would be singing this song ? no one the church has been raptured prior to the tribulation then the elect return with Christ at His second coming. .And before the great day of his wrath has come,and who is able to stand Rev.6:17 .Know dont give me your opinion give me scripture to defind your perspective on this.😃
To respond to what you said above, I’ll use an answer you gave to me when I showed 19 Bible verses that supported Peter as the first Pope:

thats a bunch of reading into scripture were ther is nothing there Iam sure you and other Bereans who have been programed to believe such nonsence, will believe that Berean propaganda .But if some person who just happened to be reading those verses and thought to himelf yes thats speaking of the Rapture. By the way their Nicolaitans Jesus hates them( Rev.2:15) The Bereans take scripture to try and make it fit there false religious system.

The irony is that you deny Jesus handed authority to Peter when this is clearly in the Bible (Matthew 16:17-19), and the Church since the beginning has always believed this passage to mean Peter is the Rock on which Christ built his Church.

Then you accept a novel doctrine of men (the Rapture) because of a few verses (1 Thes & 1 Cor) that the Church since the beginning has always believed refer to the Second Coming of Christ, not to a secret Rapture.

Today, most mainstream Christians do not accept the various Rapture theories. The Rapture is largely an American phenonemon which was synthesized 1800 years after the Resurrection.
 
Today, most mainstream Christians do not accept the various Rapture theories. The Rapture is largely an American phenonemon which was synthesized 1800 years after the Resurrection.
As SFL Catholic presented in his arguement:

In case of Rapture, I’d like to be Left Behind!!!
 
Today, most mainstream Christians do not accept the various Rapture theories. The Rapture is largely an American phenonemon which was synthesized 1800 years after the Resurrection.
Which shouldn’t surprise you, since most religious sects in America were sythesized 1800 years after the Resurrection!!!
 
Hi LT,first of all any debate that you have with Evangelicals etc.will have to be biblically sound.
Why would a debate with an evangelical have to be biblically sound when evangeliclas’ use extrinsic sources to prove thier own false claims? I.E. using the Latin Vulgate to prove rapture doctrine.

No where in the bible is rapture ever mentioned.
 
In such a position it would be more appropriate if one delves on things which are the crux of the issue. The present Christian faith (more truly and realistically speaking not Jesus’ real faith; but it consist of the Pauline mythical and imaginative doctrines) **is based on the Jesus death on Cross **which in fact never happened. If we look into Jesus’ own words, historical evidences, archaeological , medical and scientific evidences etc, etc, it gets established beyond doubt that Jesus never died on Cross. For that we cannot rely on what has been mentioned by the scribes literally; if that does not match with Jesus’ words, as Jesus’ own Witnessing has to be preferred, my Christian friends, brothers, sisters would agree with me. In fact, we shall have to **Cross-examine **everything available and every character mentioned; after all a **third degree murder **is involved , as per the Western custom in vogue, everything and everyone would be looked with suspicions and doubt and nothing would be taken for granted.
Thanks
Bridging gaps between the faiths/denominations/religions
Jesus does predict his death and resurrection many times in the Gospels (which BTW were not written by Paul). One of those times he predicts it is immediately after he gives the keys to Peter:
“From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer greatly from the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised.” (Matt 16:21)

After Christ’s death, Peter (an eyewitness) testifies in the Book of Acts (written by Luke, not Paul):
“This man delivered up by the set plan and foreknowledge of God, you killed, using lawless men to crucify him.” (Acts 2:23)

Further testimony from Peter: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who in his great mercy gave us a new birth to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead. . " (1 Peter 1:3)
“Put to death in the flesh, he was brought to life in the spirit.” (1 Peter 3:18)

John (an eyewitness to the death of Jesus) says “the blood of his Son Jesus cleanses us from all sin.” (1 John 1:7)

There are many books in the NT (not all were written by Paul) that give testimony both to Christ’s prediction of his death and to eyewitnesses of his death.

Also, consider that 11 of the 12 Apostles died a martyr’s death. The account of James’ martyrdom is in Acts 12:2. I can see that people might perpetrate a lie for various reasons, but would they give their life for a lie (Jesus’ death and resurrection)? I think this is very unlikely.
 
There are many books in the NT (not all were written by Paul) that give testimony both to Christ’s prediction of his death and to eyewitnesses of his death.
Don’t forget Matthew 16:21-23. Jesus telling Peter not to thwart efforts of His cruxifiction.

"21 From that time on, Jesus began to show his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer greatly from the elders, the chief priests, and the scribes, and be killed and on the third day be raised.
22 Then Peter took him aside and began to rebuke him, “God forbid, Lord! No such thing shall ever happen to you.”
23 He turned and said to Peter, “Get behind me, Satan! You are an obstacle to me. You are thinking not as God does, but as human beings do.” Mat 16:21 -23

This is part and parcel to the whole Matt 16:18 argument. This passage further substantiates the role Peter is to play in the formation and development of His One True Catholic church.

Here we find Jesus telling Peter to rise to the responsibility of the papal office Jesus just imbued on Peter in Mat 16:18, by commanding Peter to think as Jesus has been instructing Him. To live that knowledge imparted to him in by the Heavenly Father in Mat 16:17. “For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.”

This whole chapter is a testament to the infallibility of papal authority.
 
I hope its not what he meant.

But, its one interpretation. And interpretation seems to be the crux of his overall argument.
“Why don’t we wait til we see his stripes before we call him a leopard”, is all I’m saying.

Until then, it’s best to assume that he is honestly come here lookng for answers. Some people have been raised on anti-cathilic rhetoric for a long tie, and it may take a while beofre the Holy Spirit lifts the scales from their eyes.
 
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