Matthew 16:18 controversy

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Per the bible: Christ established a Church. He gave it the power of binding and loosing. He promised that the gates of hell would not prevail against it. He prayed that all would be one as He and the Father are One. He gave the Apostles power over sin. Unity was crucial.

You seem to say that none of this matters.

All Christian communities have PhDs and they are all in error to a greater or lesser degree. How can you know? Find the one you most agree with?
 
In the bigger scheme of things, the linguistic argument is one of semantics, and is a non-sequitur.

Any argument over Peter as the foundational stone, or little rock is a discussion on the literal aspects of verse 18, but not the bigger and more important spiritual aspect of verses 13-19.

The passage tells of why Peter was given the authority to act as head of Christ’s Church on earth.

Christ starts the conversation by asking "Who do men say that the Son of man is?”

And, we see several different answers: “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

But when Peter is asked who he thinks Jesus is, the memorable answer is, "You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”

In giving the “keys to the kingdom” and building the Church on Peter, is because of Christ’s realization that given the fact that there are varied answers on who he is, that the Church needs a wise man to make dogmatic pronouncements to unify the Church.

And, through his confession that Christ is God, Jesus knew the Church had the man that was needed!
 
Okay… lets go that that statement. Therefore brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by oral statement or by a letter of ours.

I agree that the traditions Paul passed on was rooted in the word of God. Not a problem. But that is not what we have today. Today we have an evolution over time, of revelation that has reached outside of Pauline thought. This kind of tradition Jesus warned about. Tradition is fine, as long as it represents the original and inspired truth. Otherwise, tradition can work against you.

It is like lining up 50 people and whispering in the ear of the first person a one sentence phrase. When you get down to the 50th. person, the original word has been twisted every time. Add to that, words that were invented and politicized for personal gain. This is why tradition itself comes under much suspicion in non- Roman Churches. Jesus did not speak highly of it as a means to truth.
 
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It is like lining up 50 people and whispering in the ear of the first person a one sentence phrase. When you get down to the 50th. person, the original word has been twisted every time. Add to that, words that were invented and politicized for personal gain. This is why tradition itself comes under much suspicion in non- Roman Churches. Jesus did not speak highly of it as a means to truth.
This could possibly be true if the truth is not protected by the Holy Spirit, but Jesus saying the gates of hell will not prevail against the Church, tells me that the Church will be protected from teaching false teachings
 
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Church will only be protected from false doctrine when it yields to the doctrines of scripture. Can the Church fail to abide in the truth? yes, this is why we has such admonishments in scripture to abide in the truth. Those admonishments are there because the potential to lose the truth is not exempt from the Church.
 
Church will only be protected from false doctrine when it yields to the
doctrines of scripture. Can the Church fail to abide in the truth?
yes, this is why we has such admonishments in scripture to abide in the
truth. Those admonishments are there because the potential to lose the
truth is not exempt from the Church.
So Jesus was lying?

“The gates of hell (lies/untruth/false doctrine, etc.) will not prevail.”

Unless English is your second language, it seems clear enough for 2,000 years of Christians.
 
Church will only be protected from false doctrine when it yields to the doctrines of scripture. Can the Church fail to abide in the truth? yes, this is why we has such admonishments in scripture to abide in the truth. Those admonishments are there because the potential to lose the truth is not exempt from the Church.
Which “Church” do you speak of? Where can I find this “Church”?
 
this is why we has such admonishments in scripture to abide in the truth. Those admonishments are there because the potential to lose the truth is not exempt from the Church.
There are these admonishments because the hierarchy built upon the Apostles were correcting local church bodies and keeping the truth for the Church worldwide. So yes, maybe a local body can fall into error, however the truth kept by the Church will always be true in order to correct ones who go astray.
 
ahhhh… now we must go to the definition of the word “church.” The Greek word simply means those “called out.” Those called out into the public. The church of God are those who take their faith into public life.

Paul said that in later days, “some will depart from the faith devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons.” 1st. Tim. 4:1 Those who do this were people who used to display their faith in public.

It is true that the Church is ever advancing. But the statement is general in nature. Not all of the Church, at all times, and in every place, will be advancing. But in general the Church advances and the gates of hell will not prevail again the public ones. And thus, when we get to the later days of end-time persecution, the book of Acts will be repeated where Christianity will be in the streets proclaiming Christ and saying “shall we obey man, or God?”
 
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The only “Matthew 16:18 controversy” there is, is among those who do not believe what Jesus said…

Whereas among those who do believe His words, there is no doubt. 👍 ⛪
 
ahhhh… now we must go to the definition of the word “church.” The
Greek word simply means those “called out.” Those called out into the
public. The church of God are those who take their faith into public
life.
Well, this appears to include Mormons and Jehovah’s witnesses. They use the same bible. You think they are wrong. They think you are wrong. Stalemate.

I must ask if the present disintegrating cat herd of thousands of sharply disagreeing denominations is what Christ wanted when He prayed to the Father that we all be one? Their theological entropy has but a single common factor: bible alone as sole rule. Show me the unity!

Again, I must ask about the first 380 or so years of Christianity in which there was no bible, but just hundreds of writings dispersed over the known world? No collection. No King James Bible. Not even a New International Version.

Be careful: The bible you hold in your hands was assembled by Catholics, ruled on by Pope Damasus I and the Church council in the post-Constantine Church. Is that two strikes against the bible?

Rather, there is one true Church and 1.3 billion souls have chosen her, including myself at age 35.
 
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We should know that scripture interprets scripture. Lifting one passage out of it’s context to impose a meaning not intended by the author, then attempting to validate it by people who were NOT there, makes for poor interpretation. If Peter was singled out for a special role as a Bishop with special on-going declarative revelations, other biblical apostles, under the inspiration of the holy Spirit would confirm and validate what God is doing. This never happened in Matt. 16:18. There was No doctrinal word established by this one verse. Only years later at the Vatican it was decided.
 
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I do not question your faith or your love of God. I do have serious reservations about what others have lead you to believe. If, as you say, the scriptures have powers of interpreting themselves, the scriptures must therefore be either psychotic or perhaps schizophrenic, having produced thousands of disagreeing denominations. Please explain.

Does the written word therefore tear us apart? Does the Holy Spirit lead to division? Impossible. It is quite another spirit who does that.
 
The concocted “controversy” regarding Matthew 16:18 is absolutely necessary as self-defense to those who refuse Christian unity. From another thread, biblical PROOF.
The argument in the quote is a red herring. Jesus
was not speaking Greek. They incessantly argue small rock or pebble and
completely overlook the elephant: Jesus changed Simon bar-Jonah’s name.
He does that for a reason.
Peter is named 195 times in the NT. The closest is John “whom Jesus
loved” at just 29 times. All of the rest even less. Peter is always
named first, Judas last. Here is a partial list of unique aspects of Peter:
Jesus gave Peter the keys to the gates of Heaven.

Jesus declared Peter to the the rock.
Jesus made Peter shepherd (Feed my sheep).
Jesus told Peter only to strengthen his brothers
Jesus paid the Temple tax only for Himself and Peter.
Jesus preached from Peter’s boat.
Jesus told Peter to “Follow me” at the sea of Tiberias.
Jesus called only Peter to Him across the water.
Jesus predicted Peter’s three-fold denial.
Jesus predicted Peter’s repentance and three-fold affirmation.
Jesus prophesied only Peter’s death.
Jesus taught Peter forgiveness 70 times 7 times.
Jesus spoke only to Peter at Gethsemane.
Peter is always listed first.
Peter alone received the revelation of Jesus as Messiah.
Peter alone spoke at the Transfiguration.
Peter pointed out the withered fig tree.
Peter entered the empty tomb first - John deferring to him.
Peter decided the manner of replacing Judas.
Peter spoke for the eleven at the Pentecost.
Peter was released from prison by the Angel.
Peter spoke for the eleven before the Council.
Peter held sin bound to Ananias and Saphira.
Peter’s shadow healed.
Peter declared the sin of Simony.
Peter explained the salvation of the Gentiles to the Church at Jerusalem.
The Angel told Cornelius to call for Peter.
The Holy Spirit fell upon the Gentiles as Peter preached to them.
At the empty tomb, the Angel said, “Go tell His disciples, and Peter.”
Mary Magdalene ran to tell Peter and the beloved disciple.
The vision of all foods being clean was given only to Peter.
Peter’s words silence the first council in Jerusalem.
Peter alone received the revelation of the end of the world (elements melting).
Peter alone received the revelation of Christ’s descent to hell/sheol.
Paul went to Peter to affirm that his Gospel was not in vain.
And on and on and on.

So, one can deny that Peter was primary, but it takes an amazing disregard of scripture and history to do so.
The stubborn will finds no persuasiveness in the scriptures. Why not let these interpret themselves?
 
The church has had 2000 plus years to practice the science of good interpretation. Unfortunately the early church after the first and second generation of eye witnesses died, left the holy writings to people who had no skill in the science of hermeneutics, this led to terrible over reach and bias.
 
What if your ideas go only back 100 years? Can that be true interpretation? 200 years? 500 years? Rather, trace the Church back to day 1 - AD33, and move forward. Scripture interpreting scripture is nonsensical and a radical invention of recent times. It’s not in the bible. In that bible, i.e. Nehemiah 8:5-8, those with divine authority interpreted. Are you claiming some sort of divine authority? If your bible gives you authority, why can’t mine give me the same?

You have been poisoned against the Church which Christ founded and that is very concerning. Enough conversation. Time to pray.
 
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This describes the four marks of the true Church:


As does this:

 
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I’ve been educating myself to this subject from the standpoint of Greek scholars. (removing link) has a site that has a compelling argument. With the understanding that Rome uses the Aramaic text for Matthew 16:18 because the Aramaic word for Peter and Rock is the same word. KE’PHA This solves the problem for them. But the Aramaic text has its own set of problems I will bring up later.

The Greek text of Matt. 16:18 uses two separate and different words in the passage. Petros, the name given to the Apostle, Petra, the word used for rock. Rome says that “Peter” Petros is merely the masculine form of the feminine noun Petra and therefore means the same thing.

But Classic Greek authors (before the New Testament was written) treat the words Petros and Petra as two different words. According to Liddell and Scott writers of the English Lexicon, said "Petros is “distinct from Petra” E. Heracl. 1002 says it means “panta kinesai petron” “Leaves no stone unturned” c. pl.Lg.843 X HG 3.520 “Petrous epekulindoun” “they rolled down stones.”
Note: Petros, a stone, smaller moveable stone (heracletes uses it in the phrase “leave no stone unturned.” So a Petros is a stone which can be turned over, hence a moveable stone. Petra, a large massive rock, a large boulder, a foundation stone.

If Jesus was referring the second word to Simon Peter he could have said, “epi tauto to petro” (using the masculine gender in the dative case) the same word as “Petros.” But what he said was “Epi taute te petra” using Petra, a different word.

This matters in the debate.
But Jesus didn’t say “Epi taute te petra” Jesus said neither “petros” nor “petra”. He said ‘kephas".
What the Greek translator made of "kephas’" is a different issue.
 
No, it was written in Greek.
The gospels were committed to writing in Greek. But when Jesus spoke to His disciples, He spoke Aramaic. When He said to Simon "You are Rock’ He was speaking Aramaic. “You are Kephas”.
 
Yeah, relax I haven’t been poisoned against the very organism I am apart. I am also a stone in the church. Scripture interprets scripture, scripture defines scripture. Scripture must mean what the original authors intended it to mean. Scripture must not contradict scripture. Scripture must be understood at face value unless the context demands a figure of speech. All of these are simple but necessary principles to making a trustworthy interpretation. It is a proven science but it had taken the church a long time to understand it’s importance. It is not some kind of Divine authority but finding the truth is a Divine mandate.
 
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