Maundy Thursday

rstrats said:
Maybe so. Po18guy wrote: "The same TRADITION that YOUR tradition teaches..." I merely told him my tradition which doesn't seem to be the same as his tradition.

I don't understand. Who said that the Last Supper was offered after He was crucified?
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It obviously wasn't. What we do know, from Scripture, is that Our Lord was crucified sometime during the day on Friday. That much has to be true, otherwise, one is asserting that Scripture is wrong about the detail of His having to be buried before sundown at the beginning of the Sabbath (Friday sundown to Saturday sundown). Given this scenario, the Last Supper had to be sometime on Thursday (as Western calendars figure days), probably the evening.

rstrats said:
Look, this topic is simply asking, with regard to Maundy Thursday, when the Lord's supper took place. Was it during the night time of the first half of Thursday or during the daytime of the second half of Thursday?
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By Western calendar conventions, it would have been, as I noted, sometime during the day (probably either as sundown approached or some time thereafter) on Thursday. They might well have said it was "at the beginning of the day (sundown) on Friday (or whatever they called the day before the Sabbath).

rstrats said:
If you were in Jerusalem back in the Messiah's time, and you asked one of His disciples with regard to the Lord's Supper (or whatever it was called back then) as to which calendar day and which part of the calendar day, i.e., during the night time of the first half of the calendar day or during the daytime of the second half of the calendar day, which calendar day and which part would they have said it took place?
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As noted above, they would probably have said "at the beginning of the day on Friday (or whatever their name was for the day before the Sabbath)", assuming the Last Supper took place at or after sundown. They might not have called it "Thursday" (or whatever their equivalent word was, obviously, they didn't call it "Thursday"). It is my understanding that Jews of the time reckoned days from sundown to sundown.

Let's break down the chronology, not using Western calendar days, but going by Scripture:
  • Last Supper: either at the very end of the day on the day two days before the Sabbath ("Sabbath minus two"), or (more likely), at or after sundown on the day before the Sabbath ("Sabbath minus one")
  • Agony in the garden: during the nighttime hours on the day before the Sabbath (again, "Sabbath minus one")
  • Crucifixion: during the daylight hours on the day before the Sabbath (ditto)
  • Burial: no later than sundown before the the Sabbath begins
Again, if you want to assert, given all of this, that the Western calendar day of Sunday is not the day that should be observed as day Christ rose from the dead, I can only suggest that you contact the Dicastery of the Doctrine of the Faith (formerly called the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith, or before that, the Holy Office), as well as the Patriarchate of Constantinople, tell them the historical Church has been wrong for 2000 years, and make your case. That's all I know to tell you.
 
HomeschoolDad said:
It obviously wasn't. What we do know, from Scripture, is that Our Lord was crucified sometime during the day on Friday.
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I need to get back on track here. The only purpose at this time for this topic was to find out what observers of Maundy Thursday think with regard to when the Lord's Supper took place. Was it during the night time, i.e., the first half of Thursday, or was it during the daytime of the second half of Thursday. It seems, from the answers here that instead of the way a calendar day was determined 2000 years ago where it was determined starting around sundown and ending around sundown, that for some reason the Maundy Thursday observance is based on a midnight to midnight calendar day.

So, as I wrote previously, assuming that po18guy has it correct that the last supper took place during the second night of Thursday which would be the case when using a midnight to midnight method, then I have my answer. That's all I wanted to know with regard to the term.

So, "as you were - smoke em if you got em". :giggle:
 
Please do not put words in my mouth or alter the scriptures.
It seems that you are not seeking historical accuracy, but only validation of some man's or woman's opinion in 1800s America.
Please correct if I am wrong here.
 
rstrats said:
I need to get back on track here. The only purpose at this time for this topic was to find out what observers of Maundy Thursday think with regard to when the Lord's Supper took place. Was it during the night time, i.e., the first half of Thursday, or was it during the daytime of the second half of Thursday. It seems, from the answers here that instead of the way a calendar day was determined 2000 years ago where it was determined starting around sundown and ending around sundown, that for some reason the Maundy Thursday observance is based on a midnight to midnight calendar day.
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That is how the Church typically reckons days. We don't follow the first-century Jewish method of marking days from sunset to sunset.

The Church in modern times has "vigil Masses", for instance, on Saturday night (usually considered after 4 PM, though rare exceptions are made to accommodate unique situations of the faithful), but the Mass only fulfills the Sunday obligation, and is not actually considered as "having been offered on Sunday". Similarly, fasting and abstinence are reckoned from midnight to midnight. Once in a while, I will be feeling especially peckish for meat, and will have some at 12:05 am on Saturday, or if I am up late Thursday night, I abstain from midnight Friday onwards.
 


po18guy said:
Please do not put words in my mouth...
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So, what did you mean with regard to 'evening' in post #2 when you wrote - "Matthew and Mark state "evening"?
po18guy said:
...or alter the scriptures.
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To which scriptures are you referring?

po18guy said:
It seems that you are not seeking historical accuracy...
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Just the opposite. I was simply asking in what part of a calendar day did the Lord's Supper actually take place.
po18guy said:
but only validation of some man's or woman's opinion in 1800s America.
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What? Where is that coming from?

 
rstrats said:
Was it during the night time of the first half of Thursday or during the daytime of the second half of Thursday?
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I do not believe scripture records this.
Scripture records the events and the order in which they happened, as was shown above.
It does not tell us what time things happened.

I believe the best answer you will get is that Christ was placed in the tomb before sundown on Friday.
 
rstrats said:
So, what did you mean with regard to 'evening' in post #2 when you wrote - "Matthew and Mark state "evening"?

To which scriptures are you referring?


Just the opposite. I was simply asking in what part of a calendar day did the Lord's Supper actually take place.

What? Where is that coming from
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(troll ignore)
 
vz71 said:
Seems to me this has been answered.
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And I think that the answer was that Maundy Thursday observers use a midnight-to-midnight calendar day which would place the Lord's Supper sometime during the 2nd night of Thursday. That's all I wanted to know.
 
rstrats said:
And I think that the answer was that Maundy Thursday observers use a midnight-to-midnight calendar day which would place the Lord's Supper sometime during the 2nd night of Thursday. That's all I wanted to know.
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Just out of curiosity, and not to stir the pot any more than it's already been stirred, but to what would this "second night of Thursday" correspond on a typical midnight-to-midnight calendar as used by Westerners?

This would be an unfamiliar term to pretty much everybody in the modern world.
 
HomeschoolDad said:
Just out of curiosity, and not to stir the pot any more than it's already been stirred, but to what would this "second night of Thursday" correspond on a typical midnight-to-midnight calendar as used by Westerners?
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Using a midnight-to-midnight calendar day, the first six hours is night time, then there are twelve hours of daytime and then six hours of a new night time, at which point the next calendar day begins.
 
Let's keep this conversation civil, without attacks upon anyone's motives.

I don't know why it is so important to the OP, to seek to clarify when the Last Supper took place, but that is his business. If anyone is convinced that the tradition of Catholic Christianity (as well as that of the Orthodox and most Protestants) is incorrect as to when the various Passion and Resurrection events happened and/or are observed, as I noted above, my only advice would be to go to the appropriate bodies (the DDF, the Patriarchate of Constantinople, and even the various governing bodies of Protestant sectarians), lay out the arguments, and try to convince them that they need to change their observances. At this point, I'm not even clear that the scenario apparently envisioned by the OP would be in accord with what the various Adventist bodies teach.

One thing I would point out, as a kind of side note, is that Sunday, contrary to popular belief, is not "the Christian Sabbath". (I just learned this recently.) Christ did away with the Sabbath entirely. Most Christian confessions observe Sunday, not as the Sabbath, but as the day when Christ rose from the dead (actually, very early on the calendar day as conventionally demarcated), and mandates worship at Holy Mass and abstinence from all unnecessary servile work on that day. Some who profess Christ, such as the Adventists and possibly others, are convinced that the Jewish Sabbath still binds, and so far as I am aware, they observe it as the Jews did (and still do), from Friday at sundown to Saturday at sundown (using contemporary dating conventions). Not sure what they do about such things as not driving, not lighting fires (including electronic ones), and keeping their meals for the day warm with various devices (such as a blech).
 
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