May be converting..one big issue

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I hope to convert to the Roman Catholic Church by the end of this year. I have been in protestant ministry for over 35 years, have a Th.D. in theology, etc. I do not say that to brag but only as background to the one big theological issue I am having with the Church. I am currently working through the documents of Vatican II and Papal Encyclicals.

It appears from Catholic authors when speaking about regarding salvation, is that it is possible for people to be saved apart from Jesus Christ. For example. one reply on this forum says says that a person who sincerely holds to his beliefs and doesn’t openly reject God can be saved. Unfortunately that is not what the Scripture teaches. Christ said I am THE way…

So I am going to have to do some serious reflection and continue my study on that area. I do not have a problem saying that only God knows who will be saved and regarding that we cannot just make a blanket statement because of God’s grace. I guess the real issue have I have is that someone who knows about Christ and who decides to keep believing their way, can be saved according to the church.

I do not see good thoughts, or good intentions, or sincerely held beliefs being able to save anyone.

I would like to hear some other thoughts.
 
Archbishop said:
I hope to convert to the Roman Catholic Church by the end of this year. I have been in protestant ministry for over 35 years, have a Th.D. in theology, etc. I do not say that to brag but only as background to the one big theological issue I am having with the Church. I am currently working through the documents of Vatican II and Papal Encyclicals.

It appears from Catholic authors when speaking about regarding salvation, is that it is possible for people to be saved apart from Jesus Christ. For example. one reply on this forum says says that a person who sincerely holds to his beliefs and doesn’t openly reject God can be saved. Unfortunately that is not what the Scripture teaches. Christ said I am THE way…

So I am going to have to do some serious reflection and continue my study on that area. I do not have a problem saying that only God knows who will be saved and regarding that we cannot just make a blanket statement because of God’s grace. I guess the real issue have I have is that someone who knows about Christ and who decides to keep believing their way, can be saved according to the church.

I do not see good thoughts, or good intentions, or sincerely held beliefs being able to save anyone.

I would like to hear some other thoughts.
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Have you come across any CC document supporting such a position?
 
Archbishop said:
I hope to convert to the Roman Catholic Church by the end of this year.

…

I do not see good thoughts, or good intentions, or sincerely held beliefs being able to save anyone.

I would like to hear some other thoughts.
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I’d like to see how you respond to Nicea325 first. But, I’m also curious - what is driving your desire to convert to the Catholic Church? That answer will affect how I would respond to your question.
 
I appreciate your concern. That’s a huge issue and needs clarifying. The Catechism might help. These paragraphs say:

176 Faith is a personal adherence of the whole man to God who reveals himself. It involves an assent of the intellect and will to the self-revelation God has made through his deeds and words.

178 We must believe in no one but God: the Father, **the Son **and the Holy Spirit.

183 Faith is necessary for salvation. The Lord himself affirms: “He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned” (Mk 16:16).

So it seems the Church is clear that our salvation relies on our belief and acceptance that Jesus is God. As I understand it, we don’t have to necessarily have that faith before death, though. We can come into it at the hour of death as we transition into eternity.
 
Archbishop said:
I hope to convert to the Roman Catholic Church by the end of this year. I have been in protestant ministry for over 35 years, have a Th.D. in theology, etc. I do not say that to brag but only as background to the one big theological issue I am having with the Church. I am currently working through the documents of Vatican II and Papal Encyclicals.

It appears from Catholic authors when speaking about regarding salvation, is that it is possible for people to be saved apart from Jesus Christ. For example. one reply on this forum says says that a person who sincerely holds to his beliefs and doesn’t openly reject God can be saved. Unfortunately that is not what the Scripture teaches. Christ said I am THE way…

So I am going to have to do some serious reflection and continue my study on that area. I do not have a problem saying that only God knows who will be saved and regarding that we cannot just make a blanket statement because of God’s grace. I guess the real issue have I have is that someone who knows about Christ and who decides to keep believing their way, can be saved according to the church.

I do not see good thoughts, or good intentions, or sincerely held beliefs being able to save anyone.

I would like to hear some other thoughts.
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The sun shines on the righteous and the unrighteous…
 
Archbishop said:
one reply on this forum says says that a person who sincerely holds to his beliefs and doesn’t openly reject God can be saved…
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Let me know if I understand the issue correctly: You would allow an anonymous Internet user who may be confused stop you from entering the Catholic Church?
 
Sorry but I don’t have specific references close at hand where I am now. But what got me thinking to make this post was this response in the apologetics section to the question Can faithful Jews get into heaven if they remain Jews?

“All who get to heaven do so through Jesus Christ and his Church. How Christ applies the grace of salvation to non-Christians who were unable to believe in him in this life, we do not know. All we do know is that he can do so, provided the non-Christian does not deliberately spurn God’s grace. It is the deliberate refusal of salvation that sends a person to hell, not remaining faithful to what he honestly believes to be true.”

My rub here is that this response does not mention “faith in Christ” as being an essential. I do agree with the Cathechism statements and have no problem there.
 
SonCatcher said:
Let me know if I understand the issue correctly: You would allow an anonymous Internet user who may be confused stop you from entering the Catholic Church?
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That would be ludicrous. I’m not an idiot.
 
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330
 
Let me post my question more specifically… Is Christ the only way to salvation or just one of several ways?

Sorry, but I do not believe that sincere Moslems, Buddhists, etc can get into heaven unless they repent and come to faith in Christ and receive the sacraments.
 
A trained theologian might be better served taking this up with the clergy (maybe even a bishop) face to face rather than putting it up to annonomous laity on a website, even one with the fine membership and reputation this one has.

Peace and all things good!
 
Archbishop said:
Let me post my question more specifically… Is Christ the only way to salvation or just one of several ways?

Sorry, but I do not believe that sincere Moslems, Buddhists, etc can get into heaven unless they repent and come to faith in Christ and receive the sacraments.
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I’ m sure you’ve read the CCC forward and backwards, and I have also, and I have read a lot on the net, and I am unsure of the RC belief about this, as one time it says Jesus is the way , then someone else says its up to God , and that Muslins can, Jews can, and those who do not know about the gospel can, so as much as I do hope you can get a answer,

I really believe all RC’s feel differently about this. I’m sorry I’m not much help. I’m sure you are looking for the Churches treaching so that would be the CC. because everyone will give you a different answer.

Good luck with this.
 
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
SECOND EDITION
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846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that** all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:**
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Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation:** the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door**. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
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​

From the “Catholic Church’s mouth”…so to speak…not from me or from some other Catholic person who can get it wrong or simply is wrong about their own Catholic faith.

Pax Christi
 
  1. Everything I have read says that the Catholic Church’s current understanding is that everyone who is saved is always saved through the actions and merits of Jesus Christ, but that it is not always necessary for the person who is saved to have any conscious knowledge of or faith in Jesus Christ. So, the Catholic Church does not, strictly speaking, say that anyone can be saved apart from Jesus Christ. Is this different from what the New Testament Scriptures teach? Well, many Protestants say so. But are they correct? I don’t think so. Yes, there are verses in the New Testament that directly say that the only way to be saved is to have faith in Jesus Christ. But do those statements actually rule out the possibility that someone could have an unconscious faith in Jesus Christ? Perhaps you might want to laugh at the idea of an “unconscious faith.” Yet, that is, I believe, what the Catholic Church really teaches. Is the idea of an “unconscious faith” really absurd? Is it really impossible? Or does it really make sense. Lots more could be said, but to me it makes sense.
  2. What I wrote above might be wrong. Please study official Catholic documents, along with the Holy Scriptures, if you really want to understand this. I would even caution you not to accept what Catholic theologians, apologists, and commentators write, necessarily. Some of them explain things well, some do not. Some of them have an agenda other than to teach what the Church teaches. Since you are well educated in Protestant theology, I’m sure you already understand all this. But I thought I was worth repeating.
 
Neofight said:
A trained theologian might be better served taking this up with the clergy (maybe even a bishop) face to face rather than putting it up to annonomous laity on a website, even one with the fine membership and reputation this one has.

Peace and all things good!
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Trust me. It will be. I just wanted to get some comments from the rank and file. Sorry that I even asked the question now. Last time I ask anything here.
 
Abp,

Take an official source over my answer, but this is my best understanding of the Church’s teaching:

The normal means of salvation is through the Church, specifically through baptism and remaining in the state of grace, and confessing to return to that state of grace when needed.

Those validly baptized outside the Church may be saved if they are not really culpable for remaining outside the Church (because of ignorance for which they are not responsible) and if they remain in a state of grace. Without the other sacraments, remaining in a state of grace is almost impossible, but we can hope for their salvation.

For the unbaptized, we have to differentiate a little:
  1. those who wish to be baptized but die first: the Church has always maintained that the “baptism of desire” and “baptism of blood” are acceptable to God, so they may be saved like the Good Thief.
  2. those who never seek baptism: if they are invincibly ignorant of the Gospel, God will not hold them accountable for remaining outside the Church. If they live a good life according to natural law, the gravity of their sins may be held to be venial. So we may hope for their salvation, although we may rightly figure that it is a more dangerous road than the Christian’s.
Basically, if we love our neighbor, we have to pray, pray, pray that they enter the Church because you have to be a much holier person to be saved outside the way God provided. So even though we shouldn’t despair for them, we should believe they are really taking their chances out there, and their best hope is in the Catholic Church

Does that seem more in line with the Gospel than the understanding you gave in your original post?
 
RIch C: Yes, thanks for the well thought out answer. That is what I was hoping to get when I posted originally. Much appreciated.
 
Archbishop said:
Let me post my question more specifically… Is Christ the only way to salvation or just one of several ways?
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Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation. Period.

All additional theology is derived from that. (Explicit, Implicit,CC only, etc.)

Thoughts?
 
Rich_C said:
Abp,

Take an official source over my answer, but this is my best understanding of the Church’s teaching:

The normal means of salvation is through the Church, specifically through baptism and remaining in the state of grace, and confessing to return to that state of grace when needed.

Those validly baptized outside the Church may be saved if they are not really culpable for remaining outside the Church (because of ignorance for which they are not responsible) and if they remain in a state of grace. Without the other sacraments, remaining in a state of grace is almost impossible, but we can hope for their salvation.

For the unbaptized, we have to differentiate a little:
  1. those who wish to be baptized but die first: the Church has always maintained that the “baptism of desire” and “baptism of blood” are acceptable to God, so they may be saved like the Good Thief.
  2. those who never seek baptism: if they are invincibly ignorant of the Gospel, God will not hold them accountable for remaining outside the Church. If they live a good life according to natural law, the gravity of their sins may be held to be venial. So we may hope for their salvation, although we may rightly figure that it is a more dangerous road than the Christian’s.
Basically, if we love our neighbor, we have to pray, pray, pray that they enter the Church because you have to be a much holier person to be saved outside the way God provided. So even though we shouldn’t despair for them, we should believe they are really taking their chances out there, and their best hope is in the Catholic Church

Does that seem more in line with the Gospel than the understanding you gave in your original post?
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Well said.
 
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