May be converting..one big issue

[Rich_C]

Let me post my question more specifically… Is Christ the only way to salvation or just one of several ways?

Sorry, but I do not believe that sincere Moslems, Buddhists, etc can get into heaven unless they repent and come to faith in Christ and receive the sacraments.

I hope this answers this question: one way.

According to my understanding of the Church’s teachings, following the tenents of a false religion has no merit before God, but if one is really ignorant of the Gospel, then believing in God and following the natural law allows at least the possibility of salvation.

I think it’s an important distinction. Saying that Islam is a less good way to Heaven dabbles in universalism. I think one has to conclude that Islam has no bearing on the salvation of an individual, following natural law does. To the extent that non-revealed religions teach the natural law, they may aid a person in doing what’s right, but they are not themselves efficacious.

 

[SonCatcher]

That would be ludicrous. I’m not an idiot.

Every once in a while, there is someone who is so impressionable. I just wanted to make sure you weren’t one of them.

The Church teaches that it is only by Jesus that any person could be saved, even if that person happened to not know Him in this present life. Whether that person is saved is another matter entirely.

I understand Vatican II covered this adequately in its documents on ecumenism. The Catechism also teaches this.

 

[Contarini]

I hope to convert to the Roman Catholic Church by the end of this year. I have been in protestant ministry for over 35 years, have a Th.D. in theology, etc. I do not say that to brag but only as background to the one big theological issue I am having with the Church. I am currently working through the documents of Vatican II and Papal Encyclicals.

It appears from Catholic authors when speaking about regarding salvation, is that it is possible for people to be saved apart from Jesus Christ. For example. one reply on this forum says says that a person who sincerely holds to his beliefs and doesn’t openly reject God can be saved. Unfortunately that is not what the Scripture teaches. Christ said I am THE way…

I don’t see the contradiction. Jesus said this to religious leaders who were openly rejecting him.

You might be interested in reading the Vatican document *Dominus Iesus, *if you haven’t already. This document makes it very clear that the Catholic Church definitely believes Jesus (the incarnate Jesus, specifically) to be the way, the truth, and the life.

I do not have a problem saying that only God knows who will be saved and regarding that we cannot just make a blanket statement because of God’s grace. I guess the real issue have I have is that someone who knows about Christ and who decides to keep believing their way, can be saved according to the church.

Vatican II says very explicitly that if you know that the Catholic Church is true (and this would a fortiori apply to the Christian faith as a whole) and turn away from it, you cannot be saved. But the catch is that you must really know the truth to be the truth. The question, then, is whether it’s possible for someone to “know” the truth in the sense that they could tell you what Christians believe, without “knowing” it in the sense of being convicted in their conscience that Christianity is true.

I believe that it definitely is. But I’m not sure this is strictly speaking a doctrinal matter. Insofar as it is, it may have more to do with one’s doctrine of original sin/total depravity than anything else. Certainly if you grant that a person who hasn’t heard the Gospel may be saved, then your disagreement with a more broadly “inclusivist” position isn’t Christological. It’s anthropological/psychological (using these terms in a theological sense).

I do not see good thoughts, or good intentions, or sincerely held beliefs being able to save anyone.

It isn’t that your intentions save you, but that Jesus saves you, and the only thing that can block his salvation is your refusal to allow grace to work in your life (which is how I would define unbelief, theologically).

Edwin

 

[po18guy]

841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330

Implicit in this section is that the plan of salvation would thus be incomplete. Completion appears to be contingent upon the believer progressing in faith to the point at which an embrace of Christ occurs.

As well, the Church teaches that baptism is normative in the process of salvation. Yet, baptism also assumes exceptional forms.

We are discussing not the normative means of salvation, but the exceptional. It is here that the Church dares not limit God - even while retaining the power to bind and loose. For, she will ultimately be held responsible for whatever binding and loosing she declares.

 

[Contarini]

I hope this answers this question: one way.

According to my understanding of the Church’s teachings, following the tenents of a false religion has no merit before God, but if one is really ignorant of the Gospel, then believing in God and following the natural law allows at least the possibility of salvation.

I think it’s an important distinction. Saying that Islam is a less good way to Heaven dabbles in universalism. I think one has to conclude that Islam has no bearing on the salvation of an individual, following natural law does.

I think this has to be qualified, because Islam definitely contains elements of revealed truth.

But certainly Islam in itself is not salvific, from an orthodox Christian perspective.

I would also say that following the natural law does not save you. This I think is the difference between how some Catholics view this and how evangelicals view it. And I think actually the Magisterium agrees with the evangelicals on this (certainly Pope Benedict does). Following the natural law may be a sign that you are responding to God’s grace according to the light you have. But it is not, in itself, salvific either. (Ironically, traditional Augustinian/Thomist Catholicism has a stronger stance here than, say, Calvinism. The Calvinist view is that following the natural law perfectly would save you, but no one can do it. The Augustinian/Thomist view is more optimistic about our ability to follow the natural law to some extent, but still teaches that without grace fallen human beings cannot do so; more to the point, though, the Catholic view holds that even if we did follow the natural law that would not save us, because salvation is participation in God’s life, which transcends the limits of our nature and cannot ever be earned by natural means, even if we had never sinned.)

Edwin

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Let me post my question more specifically… Is Christ the only way to salvation or just one of several ways?

Sorry, but I do not believe that sincere Moslems, Buddhists, etc can get into heaven unless they repent and come to faith in Christ and receive the sacraments.

My understanding is this: Christ is the only way to salvation. One must know Him. However, it is not necessarily the case that one must know Him by the name Christ.

That is, a person could see the law that God has written on his heart, to see this great goodness and recognize that it is good, and desire with all his being to be one with that goodness, but not associate this goodness with Jesus, either because he does not know anything about Christianity or because his perceptions are so thrown off by those around him that he cannot tell that the goodness he follows is simply all that he can see of the God we worship.

Whether this person holds another faith or practices what it teaches is mostly irrelevant, though chances are if he does hold another faith and is confused into thinking that the Goodness he seeks is there then that he will follow it. But it is not the following of the faith that matters, rather the seeking of eternal union with God, even if he does not know in so many words that that is what he is seeking.

Such a person may receive what we call baptism of desire. The “normal” case of baptism of desire, if such there be, would be the case of a catechumen who is preparing for baptism but dies before it is administered. It is extended to those who do not seek God by name by supposing that such a person as described above really did seek baptism with all their heart, he just did not know that it was baptism he was seeking.

The CCC:

VI. THE NECESSITY OF BAPTISM

1257 The Lord himself affirms that Baptism is necessary for salvation.60 He also commands his disciples to proclaim the Gospel to all nations and to baptize them.61 Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament.62 The Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude; this is why she takes care not to neglect the mission she has received from the Lord to see that all who can be baptized are “reborn of water and the Spirit.” God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments.

1258 The Church has always held the firm conviction that those who suffer death for the sake of the faith without having received Baptism are baptized by their death for and with Christ. This Baptism of blood, like the desire for Baptism, brings about the fruits of Baptism without being a sacrament.

1259 For catechumens who die before their Baptism, their explicit desire to receive it, together with repentance for their sins, and charity, assures them the salvation that they were not able to receive through the sacrament.

1260 "Since Christ died for all, and since all men are in fact called to one and the same destiny, which is divine, we must hold that the Holy Spirit offers to all the possibility of being made partakers, in a way known to God, of the Paschal mystery."63 Every man who is ignorant of the Gospel of Christ and of his Church, but seeks the truth [note: the Truth is in fact Christ, the Word, so seeking truth is seeking God] and does the will of God in accordance with his understanding of it, can be saved. It may be supposed that such persons would have desired Baptism explicitly if they had known its necessity.

Note that this in no way lowers our duty to evangelize. This is said explicitly somewhere in the CCC, but I don’t recall where just now. Because while such by desire cases may be possible, it’s not a thing to bet on. Opinions on how often the non-Christian is saved in this way vary (and, from what I understand, vary within the acceptable teachings) from almost never (with the admission that such is possible) to nearly always (with the admission that it cannot be relied upon).

In short, there are the ordinary ways by which a person is saved, and we should strive to do them and encourage everyone else to as well, and there are extraordinary ways by which a person is saved (falling under the category of “God can do whatever He wants”) which we should hope apply to all people but which we should never treat as a sure, or even probable, thing since we cannot see into a man’s heart to see if he is truly following God or not and we know at least that in telling a person what following God actually is and how important it is, we both enable him to do a better job at it and encourage him to keep it up.

 

[Iron_Donkey]

Trust me. It will be. I just wanted to get some comments from the rank and file. Sorry that I even asked the question now. Last time I ask anything here.

Most of us are more than happy to give our comments and do our best to answer questions. Please do not let the few of us who aren’t chase you off. I’ve learned most of what I know here and at other sites. You can’t take a single answer as truth of course, and I think that’s what the other poster was trying to imply even if he was a bit coarse about it, but I can honestly say that I learned more from this site (and referencing the CCC and other sources to see what was way off base and what wasn’t) in a few months than I did in the 3 or 4 years I went to “religious education” before I stopped going because there’s only so many times you can color pictures of sheep and listen to people say “Jesus loves you” over and over again.

 

[triumphguy]

Let me post my question more specifically… Is Christ the only way to salvation or just one of several ways?

Sorry, but I do not believe that sincere Moslems, Buddhists, etc can get into heaven unless they repent and come to faith in Christ and** receive the sacraments**.

A “problem” with the direction of your line of thinking might be that you come to believe that the Anglican Church is not really an Apostolic Church that teaches the deposit of faith and which administers valid sacraments, or that has a valid Episcopate. This might force you into the Catholic Church.

 

[justice99]

Remember where it was said in the bible about teachers and how their judgement wud b more strict? Also when Jesus said somtin like “if you were blind you wouldn’t have been guilty, but since you claim to see…” ?. I believe salvation is relative. Only God knows who will be saved. Was Elijah a christian? Was He baptized? I don’t think so. So is Elijah in hell? I don’t think so…

 

[neophyte]

…It appears from Catholic authors when speaking about regarding salvation, is that it is possible for people to be saved apart from Jesus Christ…

NO!

usccb.org/catechism/text/…hpt3art9p3.htm

“Outside the Church there is no salvation"

  846
  How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers? Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.
847
This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

      Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation.

  848
  "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."[/INDENT]

Everything from here on is my own pious understanding. I reject in advance anything that’s not consistent with the mind of the Church:

God knows our hearts, and doesn’t require us to know that which we cannot know.

Scripture says that everyone has some idea of God. It’s undeniable that many non-Christians are seeking God - they may have false ideas about Him but they’re seeking Him nonetheless, and NO ONE can seek God except on God’s initiative. The fact that they’re seeking God, however imperfectly, shows that He is working in their lives.

Romans 1:18-21 says “The wrath of God is indeed being revealed from heaven against every impiety and wickedness of those who suppress the truth by their wickedness. For what can be known about God is evident to them, because God made it evident to them. Ever since the creation of the world, his invisible attributes of eternal power and divinity have been able to be understood and perceived in what he has made. As a result, they have no excuse; for although they knew God they did not accord him glory as God or give him thanks. Instead, they became vain in their reasoning, and their senseless minds were darkened.”

So here scripture explicitly says that one can know God by natural revelation, right? Someone who does evil can’t legitimately claim that he never knew about God, because God made sure through creation that everyone knows him. The passage doesn’t say that they’re wicked because they don’t know God, what it says is that they’re wicked because they know God well enough and they reject him anyway!

A Protestant might say that that level of knowledge is not salvific, that you can’t be saved if that’s the limit of your knowledge of God. But there are two problems with that viewpoint. First, that would mean that people are lost because God requires them to know what they cannot know, and they cannot know it because God didn’t allow them to know it. That would violate God’s perfect justice. Second, it would mean that one can only be saved through the attainment of information which is hidden to all but a select few, which is at the core of the gnostic heresies.

If one has to have heard of Jesus in order to be saved, then never having had the opportunity to hear of him is a really good excuse for never having heard of him. But the bible specifically says that even these people have no excuse for rejecting God, because they did know about him and they rejected him anyway. What gets you into hell is rejecting God. If you don’t know about Jesus then you can’t very well be culpable for rejecting him, because you can only reject what you know about. God holds us accountable only for what we know, and not for what we cannot know.

And so the Church teaches that even these people may be saved (not that they will be saved, but only that they may be saved) through the merits of Christ, by means of which we do not know.

I like the way C. S. Lewis said it in Chapter 15 of The Last Battle. In it, Emeth tells of his meeting with Aslan:
Then I fell at his feet and thought, Surely this is the hour of death, for the Lion (who is worthy of all honor) will know that I have served Tash all my days and not him. Nevertheless, it is better to see the Lion and die than to be Tisroc of the world and live and not to have seen him. But the Glorious One bent down his golden head and touched my forehead with his tongue and said, “Son, thou art welcome.” But I said, “Alas, Lord, I am no son of thine but the servant of Tash.” He answered, “Child, all the service thou hast done to Tash, I account as service done to me.” Then by reason of my great desire for wisdom and understanding, I overcame my fear and questioned the Glorious One and said “Lord, is it then true, as the Ape said, that thou and Tash are one”" The Lion growled so that the earth shook (but his wrath was not against me) and said, “It is false. Not because he and I are one, but because we are opposites - I take to me the services which thou hast done to him. For he and I are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him. Therefore, if any man swear by Tash and keep his oath for the oath’s sake, it is by me that he has truly sworn, though he know it not, and it is I who reward him. And if any man do cruelty in my name, then, though he says the name Aslan, it is Tash whom he serves and by Tash his deed is accepted. Dost thou understand, Child?” I said “Lord, thou knowest how much I understand.” But I said also (for the truth constrained me), “Yet I have been seeking Tash all my days.” “Beloved,” said the Glorious One, “unless thy desire had been for me thou wouldst not have sought so long and so truly. For all find what they truly seek.”
Anyone who is saved, is saved through Christ.

Jesus said that He has other sheep who are “not of this fold”, and it’s not for me to decree that God has no way that they might be brought home, merely because I’ve been blessed by the knowledge of the best and surest road and they haven’t. But be certain: whatever road He provides, will be due only and entirely because of the grace of Christ.​

 

[Della]

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

Possible salvation of non-Christians: #s 846-848.

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

The reason non-Christians may be saved is that Christ died to redeem the whole making it possible for men to be saved. What the Church teaches is that those who act according to the grace God gave them MAY be saved because of Christ’s redemptive act.

Considering how hard it is for Christians to act on the grace God gives them, it’s certainly no guarantee that non-Christians will be saved. All it means is that God judges men according to their hearts and how they conformed themselves to his will as they understood it. We cannot know who will be and who will not be saved. Rather, we should do as St. Paul instructs and “work out our salvation with fear and trembling”.

 

[Darran]

Maybe a quote from Romans (2:14-15) would go well in here. It is precisely the Catholic position.

“For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another”.

 

[Vouthon]

The Catholic Church teaches that no other religion but the Catholic Church is salvific because it is the Mystical Body of Christ who is the one mediator between God and man, the only way to the Father. There is therefore no salvation outside of the Catholic Church.

All salvation comes from Christ through grace. No one can attain to salvation by his own efforts.

We absolutely reject as heresy the idea that there are “multiple paths” to God. This is called pluralism. However we also equally reject as heresy the Evangelical idea of “exclusivism”, that only those who possess explicit faith in Jesus as God can receive salvation.

The Catholic Church teaches inclusivism.

Holy Mother Church teaches that those non-Christians who do not know - that is believe - that the Catholic Church is the true religion of God wherein dwells all the plenitude of divinely revealed truth, for whatever reason, no matter what physical, psychological, familial, cultural etc. conditions are preventing them from coming to this understanding, and who follow the Will of God as known to the dictates of their conscience as best as possible will attain to salvation through the grace of the Holy Spirit who is operative outside the visible confines of the Church.

We call such people “invincibly ignorant” and therefore not liable or called to account for their unbelief.

We believe that such people, of whom there may be many, are spiritually members of the Catholic Church since they have the true character of a Christian and the implicit desire for baptism, and would be formally incorporated into the Church through water baptism if they understood the truth of the Catholic religion.

These people are baptized into the Church through implicit desire which makes them substantial, spiritual members of Christ’s Mystical Body.

Salvation is the ascent of our soul to our true home in God, where we become divinised and achieve union with God and the joy of self-fulfilment in seeing the Beatific Vision, God face-to-face, his Essence.

God gives his grace to all equally, it is our own choice whether to accept it or not. Hell is not considered to be a place in Catholicism but rather a state of being which begins with actions, thoughts, decisions in this life and extends into eternity, separating our hearts from God and cutting off his saving grace.

Non-Christians who do not understand/believe that the Catholic Church is the true Church but who still, nevertheless, follow the Will of God as known to the dictates of their conscience will -through the grace of God - become united with God in life and become incorporated spiritually into his Church and therefore attain to salvation, the joy of the Beatific Vision.

Those who do not follow the Will of God but reject the dictates of their conscience and live lifes of great sin, or who have reached an awareness of the truth of the Catholic religion but have no desire to follow through with this dictate of their conscience calling them towards the Catholic Church, could perchance consign themselves to that state of hell and estrangement from God because to deny ones conscience is to deny one’s true self, which is the Image and likeness of God. In this case we can only pray to God. He is capable of all things, nothing is impossible to him. Perhaps, through his boundless, infinite mercy they will attain salvation. In such cases we do not know, we cannot judge the salvation of any soul.

So if a non-Christian sincerely believes that his chosen religious path is absolutely true and does not believe that the Catholic Church is the true religion, and faithfully lives his life as a good Muslim/Jew/Hindu/Sikh the best as he possibly can and follows the dictates of his conscience always and adheres to the inspired truths the Holy Spirit has placed in his religion, then he will attain to salvation. Vatican II also taught that even atheists can attain to salvation.

This is of course provided that the hypothetical non-Christian in question has made a thorough, heartfelt and geuine investigation of and search after truth. Every human being has an in-built duty to seek the Truth.

Certainly we believe that there are benefits, or rather graces such as the normal, corporeal sacraments which non-Catholics are obviously deprived of, although they can receive baptism, confession and eucharist at least by implicit desire. The Church naturally wishes that all people could be under its bosom and partake of these gifts of God but this is not, of course, possible given the complexity of human psychology and a whole variety of ameliorating circumstances. God will of course take consideration for the lack of ability of non-Christians to partake of these divine gifts.

The Catholic Church believes and teaches that the world religions have arose from man’s openess to God. The Church believes that there is divinely inspired truth, seeds of the Word, in all world religions. These truths, the Church teaches, are the presence of Christ in these religions and by embracing these truths, these non-Christians are actually embracing Jesus - who is the Truth incarnate - without knowing it. These teachings, which in many cases came from the religion’s founder’s genuine experience of the Holy Spirit, guide the followers of these religions to more faithfully adhere to the dictates of their consciences and therefore to attain to salvation through the grace of God and not through their own efforts.

 

[504Katrin]

Sorry but I don’t have specific references close at hand where I am now. But what got me thinking to make this post was this response in the apologetics section to the question Can faithful Jews get into heaven if they remain Jews?

“All who get to heaven do so through Jesus Christ and his Church. How Christ applies the grace of salvation to non-Christians who were unable to believe in him in this life, we do not know. All we do know is that he can do so, provided the non-Christian does not deliberately spurn God’s grace. It is the deliberate refusal of salvation that sends a person to hell, not remaining faithful to what he honestly believes to be true.”

My rub here is that this response does not mention “faith in Christ” as being an essential. I do agree with the Cathechism statements and have no problem there.

I’d suggest we simply stick to the gospel. Yes, Jesus said so, and we shouldn’t take his words out of context. Jesus didn’t say that you have to believe in the holy trinity in order to get to heaven. He said that you should believe in the father in order to get to heaven AND keep his commandments.

Lets’s see what happened. They talked about the house of the father that has many rooms.

Jesus then said that:

1. they knew the way to that place where he was going. Yet everyone said that they didn’t, and THEN Jesus said that:
2. he was the way and the truth and the life. No one came to the Father except through him, and that they also knew the **Father **if they really knew him…
3. when they still didn’t realize what he was trying to tell them, and asked him to show them the father, he explained to them that the father was in him and that he was in the father. He then goes on and encourages us to keep his commandments:

“Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me."

So what is he saying? He says that the commandments he gave us are the ones that came from the father (from him).

When he refers to “me” as in “noone comes to the father excet through me” he isn’t talking about himself (me/I) as a person, but wants the father to be glorified: “…so that the Father may be glorified in the Son”.
Jesus is talking about the commandments that were given and asked to keep.

Now I do not see where the commandments that were given to Jews were any different than ours. Which are the two commandments he gave us? The first one was to love G-d with all of our heart, and the second one is to love our neighbors just as ourselves. Which is something faithful Jews strive to do every single moments of their life. I think it’s the same thing with Muslims.

Maybe go back and read chapter John 14 again so that you can read in context the things that I’ve mentioned.

 

[Vouthon]

One cannot attain to salvation by being a Jew, atheist, Baha’i, Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim. One can only attain to salvation if they are a member of the Catholic Church.

Jews, atheists, Baha’is, Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims can attain to salvation if they are spiritually speaking joined to the Catholic Church as informal members through implicit baptism by desire which consists in following the Will of God as known to one’s conscience. Through the grace of God such people can attain to salvation per Catholic doctrine.

This was explained well by, of all people, the traditionalist Marcel Lefebvre, founder of the SSPX :

"…There are three ways of receiving baptism: the baptism of water; the baptism of blood (that of the martyrs who confessed the faith while still catechumens) and baptism of desire.

Baptism of desire can be explicit…The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church…"

**- (Archbishop Lefebvre, Open Letter to Confused Catholics) **

The only error I would say in the above is his inclusion of “Protestants”. The Catholic Church would say that they are already validly baptized

Apart from that error, its a good and simple description.

 

[504Katrin]

**One cannot attain to salvation by being a Jew, atheist, Baha’i, Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim. One can only attain to salvation if they are a member of the Catholic Church.

Jews, atheists, Baha’is, Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims can attain to salvation if they are spiritually speaking joined to the Catholic Church as informal members through implicit baptism by desire which consists in following the Will of God as known to one’s conscience. Through the grace of God such people can attain to salvation per Catholic doctrine.**

This was explained well by, of all people, the traditionalist Marcel Lefebvre, founder of the SSPX :

"…There are three ways of receiving baptism: the baptism of water; the baptism of blood (that of the martyrs who confessed the faith while still catechumens) and baptism of desire.

Baptism of desire can be explicit…The doctrine of the Church also recognizes implicit baptism of desire. This consists in doing the will of God. God knows all men and He knows that amongst Protestants, Muslims, Buddhists and in the whole of humanity there are men of good will. They receive the grace of baptism without knowing it, but in an effective way. In this way they become part of the Church…"

**- (Archbishop Lefebvre, Open Letter to Confused Catholics) **

The only error I would say in the above is his inclusion of “Protestants”. The Catholic Church would say that they are already validly baptized

Apart from that error, its a good and simple description.

hope you won’t mind the question, but what makes you believe them (words in bold) if you know that our Lord / Jesus didn’t say so?

 

[Iron_Donkey]

hope you won’t mind the question, but what makes you believe them (words in bold) if you know that our Lord / Jesus didn’t say so?

Actually, the parable of the good Samaritan could be interpreted to say this. The Samaritan was religiously wrong, yet he was the one who did what he should etc.

But in any case, we’re not sola scriptura people. It doesn’t have to be explicitly spelled out in scripture to be true. We believe that people who are not formally part of the visible confines of the Church can be saved because the Church tells us so and the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit (and because it makes sense).

 

[Vouthon]

hope you won’t mind the question, but what makes you believe them (words in bold) if you know that our Lord / Jesus didn’t say so?

My dear sister in Christ

Because the Magisterium of the Catholuc Church which is the infallible interpretor of Christ’s words has taught us so guided by the Holy Spirit

Also the concepts of invincible ignorance and following the will of God to attain to salvation through the grace of God is actually fully biblical.

God wishes that all could come to an explicit knowledge of revealed truth but for a variety of reasons, this is not always possible. As the Bible says:

“…I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me…This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth…For to this end we toil and struggle, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe…”

- (1 Timothy 1:13.2:4:10)

From this divinely revealed book of Sacred Scripture we learn that:

• God is merciful to those who act “ignorantly in unbelief”, those who like Paul was with Judaism are sincere in their errors, however wrong.
• When Paul had been acting “ignorantly” and persecuting Christians he had been fully aware of their existence and basic teachings; demonstrating that invincible ignorance is not to do with having “heard” the Gospel but having “understood” it on a personal level and realized that is true and necessary for salvation
• God is the Saviour of “All people” and get this part, “especially of those who believe” - but note NOT “ONLY”!

The Holy Spirit is not restricted to the confines of the Visible Church but is present mysteriously in every human heart.

There are seeds of the Word (logos spermatikos) according to Church Fathers such as Saint Justin Martyr and Saint Clement of Alexandria in all world religions.

Every human being has the Logos (Jesus) present mysteriously through the power of the Holy Spirit in his conscience, that natural, God-given law.

And on the will of God being sufficient to act as implicit faith in Christ for a person who is in a state of invincible ignorance:

From Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount (Gospel of Matthew 7):

“…Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’…”

- Jesus Christ (Sermon on the Mount)

This is the very same theology of the “will” underpinning the teaching of Pope Pius XII and subsequent teaching of the Holy Office in 1949 (the highest authority in the Vatican on doctrine) which condemned the theological errors taught by a renegade priest called Feeney who embraced the false notion (influenced perhaps by protestantism) that there was no salvation outside Christ and his Church:

Holy Office, Aug 9, 1949, condemning doctrine of L. Feeney (DS 3870):

“It is not always required that one be actually incorporated as a
member of the Church, but this at least is required: that one adhere
to it in wish and desire. It is not always necessary that this be
explicit… but when a man labors under invincible ignorance, God
accepts even an implicit will, called by that name because it is
contained in the good disposition of soul in which a man wills to
conform his will to the will of God.”

And this passage from the Apostle Paul:

There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (Rom 2:8-16)

It is not at all a non-biblical idea, then, that salvation is possible to those who do not know Christ or His Church/have not reached an explicit faith in Christ.

 

[Ophelia23]

I am not going to claim to be an expert in Theology such as yourself, so this really is entirely food for thought. The bible says that nobody can get to the father except through the Son. The Son (Christ) is also referred to in Isaiah as the Advocate. If we’re speaking, for example, about a tribe that has never been introduced to Christ, I have a hard time believing they are not offered salvation. Or a child whose parents had not introduced him to Christ, for that matter. Is it possible that Christ advocates for us, and that is how we reach the father? Paul tells us we love him although we do not yet know him. Is it possible that it is Christ’s pleading with the Father on our behalf that opens salvation?

 

[edwest2]

Yes, anonymous posters on the internet sometimes confuse the issue by not doing enough research. I hope everyone finds the following helpful:

catholic.com/tracts/salvation-outside-the-church

Peace,
Ed