May be converting..one big issue

[aragonjohn1]

I hope to convert to the Roman Catholic Church by the end of this year. I have been in protestant ministry for over 35 years, have a Th.D. in theology, etc. I do not say that to brag but only as background to the one big theological issue I am having with the Church. I am currently working through the documents of Vatican II and Papal Encyclicals.

It appears from Catholic authors when speaking about regarding salvation, is that it is possible for people to be saved apart from Jesus Christ. For example. one reply on this forum says says that a person who sincerely holds to his beliefs and doesn’t openly reject God can be saved. Unfortunately that is not what the Scripture teaches. Christ said I am THE way…

So I am going to have to do some serious reflection and continue my study on that area. I do not have a problem saying that only God knows who will be saved and regarding that we cannot just make a blanket statement because of God’s grace. I guess the real issue have I have is that someone who knows about Christ and who decides to keep believing their way, can be saved according to the church.

I do not see good thoughts, or good intentions, or sincerely held beliefs being able to save anyone.

I would like to hear some other thoughts.

what ive heard is that the non-believer/non-christian can be saved through a baptism of desire no matter how imperfect and/or good works.

shalom

God Bless

 

[Darran]

I am not going to claim to be an expert in Theology such as yourself, so this really is entirely food for thought. The bible says that nobody can get to the father except through the Son. The Son (Christ) is also referred to in Isaiah as the Advocate. If we’re speaking, for example, about a tribe that has never been introduced to Christ, I have a hard time believing they are not offered salvation. Or a child whose parents had not introduced him to Christ, for that matter. Is it possible that Christ advocates for us, and that is how we reach the father? Paul tells us we love him although we do not yet know him. Is it possible that it is Christ’s pleading with the Father on our behalf that opens salvation?

It will really depend on our individual judgement. A saying is: “To whom much is given, much is expected”, as is said in Romans (2:14-15) as I quoted above, Gentiles (non Jews, still applicable today as non Catholics since Catholicism is the continuation of Judaism) when they don’t have the law, are bound by obligation to obey the conscience God gave them.

It is a much different thing than acceptance and denial as they really haven’t heard of the faith in order to accept or deny. God wouldn’t have a person born in such a place that they would be destined to go to hell since they cannot receive His true faith, that is precisely why he equips us with a conscience - a law all of us are inclined to naturally (the natural law is another term for this, just by the way). How we live by what we have at our disposal is what defines our judgement.

 

[504Katrin]

My dear sister in Christ

Because the Magisterium of the Catholuc Church which is the infallible interpretor of Christ’s words has taught us so guided by the Holy Spirit

Also the concepts of invincible ignorance and following the will of God to attain to salvation through the grace of God is actually fully biblical.

God wishes that all could come to an explicit knowledge of revealed truth but for a variety of reasons, this is not always possible. As the Bible says:

“…I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief, and the grace of our Lord overflowed for me…This is right and is acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires everyone to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth…For to this end we toil and struggle, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe…”

- (1 Timothy 1:13.2:4:10)

From this divinely revealed book of Sacred Scripture we learn that:

• God is merciful to those who act “ignorantly in unbelief”, those who like Paul was with Judaism are sincere in their errors, however wrong.
• When Paul had been acting “ignorantly” and persecuting Christians he had been fully aware of their existence and basic teachings; demonstrating that invincible ignorance is not to do with having “heard” the Gospel but having “understood” it on a personal level and realized that is true and necessary for salvation
• God is the Saviour of “All people” and get this part, “especially of those who believe” - but note NOT “ONLY”!

The Holy Spirit is not restricted to the confines of the Visible Church but is present mysteriously in every human heart.

There are seeds of the Word (logos spermatikos) according to Church Fathers such as Saint Justin Martyr and Saint Clement of Alexandria in all world religions.

Every human being has the Logos (Jesus) present mysteriously through the power of the Holy Spirit in his conscience, that natural, God-given law.

And on the will of God being sufficient to act as implicit faith in Christ for a person who is in a state of invincible ignorance:

From Jesus’ Sermon on the Mount (Gospel of Matthew 7):

“…Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’…”

- Jesus Christ (Sermon on the Mount)

This is the very same theology of the “will” underpinning the teaching of Pope Pius XII and subsequent teaching of the Holy Office in 1949 (the highest authority in the Vatican on doctrine) which condemned the theological errors taught by a renegade priest called Feeney who embraced the false notion (influenced perhaps by protestantism) that there was no salvation outside Christ and his Church:

Holy Office, Aug 9, 1949, condemning doctrine of L. Feeney (DS 3870):

“It is not always required that one be actually incorporated as a
member of the Church, but this at least is required: that one adhere
to it in wish and desire. It is not always necessary that this be
explicit… but when a man labors under invincible ignorance, God
accepts even an implicit will, called by that name because it is
contained in the good disposition of soul in which a man wills to
conform his will to the will of God.”

And this passage from the Apostle Paul:

There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek. For God shows no partiality. All who have sinned without the law will also perish without the law, and all who have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on that day when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus. (Rom 2:8-16)

It is not at all a non-biblical idea, then, that salvation is possible to those who do not know Christ or His Church/have not reached an explicit faith in Christ.

Thanks for your kind response

In fact, you’re proving my point here that…:

"…Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

…that those that stick to his commandments will enter the kingdom of heaven.

From this divinely revealed book of Sacred Scripture we learn that:

• God is merciful to those who act “ignorantly in unbelief”, those who like Paul was with Judaism are sincere in their errors, however wrong.

no we didn’t learn that. We learned that:

There will be tribulation and distress for every human being who does evil, the Jew first and also the Greek, but glory and honor and peace for everyone who does good, the Jew first and also the Greek.
This is a huge difference.

You’re not proving the point that I put in bold:

One cannot attain to salvation by being a Jew, atheist, Baha’i, Hindu, Buddhist or Muslim. One can only attain to salvation if they are a member of the Catholic Church.

Jews, atheists, Baha’is, Hindus, Buddhists and Muslims can attain to salvation if they are spiritually speaking joined to the Catholic Church as informal members through implicit baptism by desire which consists in following the Will of God as known to one’s conscience. Through the grace of God such people can attain to salvation per Catholic doctrine

Neither Christ nor anyone else in the christian bible says so.

 

[Vouthon]

You’re not proving the point that I put in bold:

Neither Christ nor anyone else in the christian bible says so.

Oh I get what your saying now I think Apologies, I thought that you were denying that non-Christians can attain to salvation, I misunderstood and hadn’t read your previous posts.

Catholics do not adhere to sola scriptura. Not everything was revealed in Sacred Scripture. Public Revelation encompasses what we call the Sacred Tradition received from the Apostles which comes in two forms: Sacred Scripture and Unwritten Sacred Tradition or sometimes simply called “Sacred Tradition”.

Sacred Tradition, though not in the Bible, is also equally the Word of God and it has been attested too by the Fathers of the Church, and its interpretation is given by the Magisterium of the Church (as with scripture).

It is a dogma from the Fathers, such as Origen and Cyril and held by every single Pope, theologian etc. down the centuries that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

However the Church has also always taught that baptism can be received in three ways: Water baptism, baptism by blood (martyrdom) and baptism by desire - explicit in the case of catechumens but which can also be received implicitly by non-Christians if they are invincibly ignorant.

This is the consistent teaching of the Catholic church for 2,000 years, although its understanding has developed as time went on.

If you would like quotations from the Fathers on this I would be happy to provide them when I get the chance.

 

[504Katrin]

Oh I get what your saying now I think Apologies, I thought that you were denying that non-Christians can attain to salvation, I misunderstood and hadn’t read your previous posts.

Catholics do not adhere to sola scriptura. Not everything was revealed in Sacred Scripture. Public Revelation encompasses what we call the Sacred Tradition received from the Apostles which comes in two forms: Sacred Scripture and Unwritten Sacred Tradition or sometimes simply called “Sacred Tradition”.

Sacred Tradition, though not in the Bible, is also equally the Word of God and it has been attested too by the Fathers of the Church, and its interpretation is given by the Magisterium of the Church (as with scripture).

It is a dogma from the Fathers, such as Origen and Cyril and held by every single Pope, theologian etc. down the centuries that there is no salvation outside the Catholic Church.

However the Church has also always taught that baptism can be received in three ways: Water baptism, baptism by blood (martyrdom) and baptism by desire - explicit in the case of catechumens but which can also be received implicitly by non-Christians if they are invincibly ignorant.

This is the consistent teaching of the Catholic church for 2,000 years, although its understanding has developed as time went on.

If you would like quotations from the Fathers on this I would be happy to provide them when I get the chance.

I’m a Catholic also and I do not believe in sola scripture but know that the Holy Spirit was given to us, and that the Holy Spirit spoke to us in scripture other than the Christian bible. I also believe that it’s possible that his church makes *small *changes through the Holy Spirit.

However, if you take into account that the Holy Spirit is noone else but Jesus and the Father, it consequently becomes impossible for the Holy Spirit to use teachings that are totally contradictive to what God told us. God doesn’t contradict himself.

So if you have Jesus on the one hand who tells us that you’re saved by sticking to his commandments, and you have the - supposedly - holy spirit on the other hand telling us that there’s no salvation outside the catholic church which is the opposite of what God told us, I come to the conclusion that that “holy spirit” that spoke the contrary must be an unholy one. Evil tries to get to the leaders first. Why try to get to every individual if you can attack the Sheppard that guides an entire flock.

So you’re right if you conclude that I don’t believe in scripture other than the christian bible if it totally contradicts Christs’ teachings.

 

[Luvtosew]

Christians must believe and put their FAITH in Jesus Christ as our Lord and Saviour, he died for our salvation and resurrected and now sits at the right hand of the father.

Christians includes anyone that believe the above.(All Christians). That is the Christian basic belief for salvation.

 

[COPLAND_3]

Some people have not heard the Gospel and never will on this side of the grave. There has been many people who have gone through life and never heard about Jesus, which in turn means that they have not an opportunity to have faith in Him. That is not their fault. But in situations like that, God judges those people based upon how they have responded to God according to what knowledge that they have of Him, whether total ignorance or a very misdguided knowledge. God is all-knowing, and is also able to judge them based upon how they would have responded to the Gospel if they had been given the opportunity.

 

[Della]

Some people have not heard the Gospel and never will on this side of the grave. There has been many people who have gone through life and never heard about Jesus, which in turn means that they have not an opportunity to have faith in Him. That is not their fault. But in situations like that, God judges those people based upon how they have responded to God according to what knowledge that they have of Him, whether total ignorance or a very misdguided knowledge. God is all-knowing, and is also able to judge them based upon how they would have responded to the Gospel if they had been given the opportunity.

Yes, which is all possible only because of Christ’s redemptive life, death and resurrection. Jesus died for the whole world–every single person, not just for those who have heard of him. Deliberately rejecting him and his redemption would qualify one for hell, most certainly.

This doesn’t mean we don’t evangelize all people. Far better that all people know about Christ and the Church and all the means of grace he gave to us for our salvation. We are only saying that God’s mercy is boundless and that he is the judge of each human heart. He has poured out his Spirit on the whole world through Christ, so everyone has the opportunity to be saved who seeks God with their whole heart, soul, and mind.

 

[COPLAND_3]

Yes, which is all possible only because of Christ’s redemptive life, death and resurrection. Jesus died for the whole world–every single person, not just for those who have heard of him. Deliberately rejecting him and his redemption would qualify one for hell, most certainly.

This doesn’t mean we don’t evangelize all people. Far better that all people know about Christ and the Church and all the means of grace he gave to us for our salvation. We are only saying that God’s mercy is boundless and that he is the judge of each human heart. He has poured out his Spirit on the whole world through Christ, so everyone has the opportunity to be saved who seeks God with their whole heart, soul, and mind.

Absolutely, I should have added that the salvation is only by what has been made possible through Jesus Christ. The point I was making is that faith in Christ is not always possible (humanly speaking) when people have not had any opportunity to be introduced to the Gospel. I by no means am down-playing the importance of faith in Christ, I am only indicating that there are expections in the case of honest not knowing Christ, and there have been many, and still are, those who have not had the opportunity to hear the Gospel. I refuse to believe that God sends those people to Hell, and I am thankful the Church has defined it the way they have, because there are some non-catholics who teach that people in ignorance are doomed to hell with no exceptions.

And yes, we need to spread the Gospel. Those who do make it to Heaven even without hearing the Gospel are blessed enough to make it, but miss out on a life filled with Christ.

 

[Della]

Absolutely, I should have added that the salvation is only by what has been made possible through Jesus Christ. The point I was making is that faith in Christ is not always possible (humanly speaking) when people have not had any opportunity to be introduced to the Gospel. I by no means am down-playing the importance of faith in Christ, I am only indicating that there are expections in the case of honest not knowing Christ, and there have been many, and still are, those who have not had the opportunity to hear the Gospel. I refuse to believe that God sends those people to Hell, and I am thankful the Church has defined it the way they have, because there are some non-catholics who teach that people in ignorance are doomed to hell with no exceptions.

And yes, we need to spread the Gospel. Those who do make it to Heaven even without hearing the Gospel are blessed enough to make it, but miss out on a life filled with Christ.

 

[Gods_Peace]

Sorry but I don’t have specific references close at hand where I am now. But what got me thinking to make this post was this response in the apologetics section to the question Can faithful Jews get into heaven if they remain Jews?

“All who get to heaven do so through Jesus Christ and his Church. How Christ applies the grace of salvation to non-Christians who were unable to believe in him in this life, we do not know. All we do know is that he can do so, provided the non-Christian does not deliberately spurn God’s grace. It is the deliberate refusal of salvation that sends a person to hell, not remaining faithful to what he honestly believes to be true.”

My rub here is that this response does not mention “faith in Christ” as being an essential. I do agree with the Cathechism statements and have no problem there.

Faith in the Life? Faith in the Grace