May Catholics Endorse Universalism?

[OneSheep]

It was the soldiers who Jesus prayed for. And even then, Jesus didn’t absolve Dismas’.partner who reviled Him. The priests and Pharisees there weren’t in that category.

You have access to this extra information concerning Luke 23:34? What is the source?

“Repent therefore, so your sins may be washed away.”

A person of good conscience is going to feel guilty until he repents. A person of unformed conscience has no idea what they are doing. They have an empathy disability, and have limited access to Love.

If God will forgive my sins regardless of my disposition or action, then I might as well commit all the sins I want, and there is no point in going to Confession because my sins are forgiven regardless.

There is some danger to actually realizing that God’s gift is unlimited and unconditional. If the threat of hell or punishment is all that is keeping you from sin, please disregard the image I am presenting.

We all have a part of ourselves that wants no sin to go unpunished, as those who wished to stone the adulteress. Jesus invites the angry crowd to consider their own connectedness to the woman, to see her as themselves. Again, the crowd wanted justice, but His mercy trumps it. But then, he tells her to sin no more. Does she avoid sin because of threat of punishment, or does she come to see that she has infinite value before God, and no longer wishes to defile the temple of the body?

What became of the petition of Mt 26:39? Was it granted in its asking?

It’s getting off topic, but feel free to message me!

any Catholic who believes that puts themselves in a state of mortal sin.

Have you seen the video on Bishop Barron’s take on this? We are not to be surprised if hell is empty. I don’t know if it is empty or not, because I am not omniscient. The mortal sin claim: Do you have a source for that?

Everyone, including Satan and the other fallen angels will ultimately be saved.

If we apply what pertains to people onto angels, that would depend on their wanting to be with God.

I did not verify the accuracy of this page, but you might want to read the sections from Gaudium et Spes, as well as the quotes from JPII and St. Therese.

 

[OneSheep]

You do not have to repent of mortal sins to be forgiven.

If you do not repent, you will not experience forgiveness, the loving embrace of reunion and reconciliation with God. However, God mercy is unlimited, He always forgives. He forgave us before He created us.
However, this has to do with an image that can be discovered through prayer, as did St. Therese and others. There is also a part of ourselves (our conscience!) that insists on justice, and that part finds abominable things like paying the workers in the vineyard the same wage, refraining from stoning the adultress, and forgiving the prodigal son. Becoming whole means allowing our underlying grounding in mercy to inform the part of ourselves that insists on justice as the most important thing.

The purpose of justice is mercy.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

You have access to this extra information concerning Luke 23:34?

Not extra.

What is the source?

The actual facts and circumstances thereof.

A person of good conscience is going to feel guilty until he repents.

Unless said person decides to shove conscience intp the garbage.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

We all have a part of ourselves that wants no sin to go unpunished, as those who wished to stone the adulteress.

Taken out of context.

The woman caught in adultery was only a sham to.incriminate Jesus. The woman’s partner was absent. If Jesus were to validate that, Jesus would be sinning in validating an unjust case.

 

[Vico]

If you do not repent, you will not experience forgiveness

And that is a tragedy from the viewpoint of those that love God, for as it states in the Catechism “it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell”:

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility of human freedom, as is love itself. It results in the loss of charity and the privation of sanctifying grace, that is, of the state of grace. If it is not redeemed by repentance and God’s forgiveness, it causes exclusion from Christ’s kingdom and the eternal death of hell, for our freedom has the power to make choices for ever, with no turning back. …

 

[OneSheep]

The actual facts and circumstances thereof.

You are presenting another brute fact friend. Please give your source.

Unless said person decides to shove conscience intp the garbage

Another great starting place. What is going through the mind of the person who “shoves his conscience into the garbage”?

 

[Julius_Caesar]

If you do not repent, you will not experience forgiveness, the loving embrace of reunion and reconciliation with God.

Being forgiven and experiencing forgiveness are the same thing. You’re grasping at straws at this point.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

You are presenting another brute fact friend. Please give your source.

The actual text.

In Luke 23, we see, Pilate knew Jesus was innocent and yet condemned Him.

Caiaphas and co had ample amount of signs performed in their midst.

The soldiers as far as we know were only doing their jobs.

 

[OneSheep]

It was the soldiers who Jesus prayed for. And even then, Jesus didn’t absolve Dismas’.partner who reviled Him. The priests and Pharisees there weren’t in that category.

The woman caught in adultery was only a sham to.incriminate Jesus. The woman’s partner was absent. If Jesus were to validate that, Jesus would be sinning in validating an unjust case.

Being forgiven and experiencing forgiveness are the same thing

I have no idea where you are getting this stuff. Please cite your sources.

The actual text.

Well, bring forth your sources and the actual text, please.

1861 Mortal sin is a radical possibility

This topic is not specifically about mortal sin. If you would like to discuss mortal sin, I suggest you refer back to our previous discussions.

 

[Montrose]

If you do not repent, you will not experience forgiveness, the loving embrace of reunion and reconciliation with God. However, God mercy is unlimited, He always forgives. He forgave us before He created us.

God only forgives us if we repent and confess our sins. If we die in a state of mortal sin we go immediately to Hell. That is an infallible teaching of the Church.

 

[Vico]

…
This topic is not specifically about mortal sin. If you would like to discuss mortal sin, I suggest you refer back to our previous discussions.

Montrose mentioned mortal sin and you replied to it and I commented on your reply.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

I have no idea where you are getting this stuff

I actually look at the text as opposed to your approach.

It’s a known fact that there was no man caught in adultery with the woman.

The Law prescribed this.

22If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.

Is repentance required for forgiveness? - Arlington Catholic Herald

 

[OneSheep]

God only forgives us if we repent and confess our sins.

From the Cross, Jesus forgave unrepentant, non-confessing people.

If we die in a state of mortal sin we go immediately to Hell. That is an infallible teaching of the Church.

Bring forth that teaching, and we can discuss it.

Montrose mentioned mortal sin and you replied to it and I commented on your reply

Ah, I get it. A poster was saying that if someone believes in “Universalism”, they put themselves in a state of mortal sin. Do you see the context now?

I actually look at the text as opposed to your approach…It’s a known fact…

Again, I see no source for your assertions. The article said nothing about the circumstances of the adultress, the limitation on Jesus’ forgiveness from the cross, or being forgiven and experiencing forgiveness as the same thing. If you aren’t going to post your sources, can we just drop this?

You cited an article that gave a priest’s opinion on a topic and I disagree with him. The priest humbly put the words “in my mind”, and that was excellent. It is not that he is definitely wrong, there are some important issues that he brings up. For example, we may not be immediately ready to forgive, and that is okay with God, I think. However, if we hold something against someone and refuse to forgive, we carry that burden to our grave. This is not a state of holiness.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

From the Cross, Jesus forgave unrepentant, non-confessing people.

This has been debunked over and over.

The article said nothing about the circumstances of the adultress

But did you read the Scripture that prescribed what should happen?

This was not valid.

the limitation on Jesus’ forgiveness from the cross, or being forgiven

Article did that.

But let’s see YOUR SOURCES.

 

[OneSheep]

This has been debunked over and over.

Source?

But did you read the Scripture that prescribed what should happen?

Yes, but we don’t know the circumstances of the adulteress or adulterer. If you are thinking that whole scene happened because the man was not present, not also being stoned at the time, you have completely missed the point of that part of the Gospel. Again, if you have a source that knows more detail, bring it forth, otherwise, let’s just drop it.

Article did that.

Please cite with quotes the words that support your point. Remember, it was an opinion article.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Yes, but we don’t know the circumstances of the adulteress or adulterer.

It’s pretty telling what the intentions of the Pharisees were. They didn’t enact justice.

If you are thinking that whole scene happened because the man was not present, not also being stoned at the time, you have completely missed the point of that part of the Gospel

That case wasn’t a valid case. Why should Jesus enforce the sentence?

Please cite with quotes the words that support your point

Maybe cite yours while you’re at it.

 

[Vico]

…
Ah, I get it. A poster was saying that if someone believes in “Universalism”, they put themselves in a state of mortal sin. Do you see the context now?..

Montrose asked if you believe that:

You do not have to repent of mortal sins to be forgiven.

So back to post 188: May Catholics Endorse Universalism? - #188 by OneSheep

You had posted “If you do not repent, you will not experience forgiveness”
So I replied about mortal sin, however venial sin also has consequences and requires “repentance and God’s forgiveness” without which there is temporal punishment.

 

[Montrose]

Montrose:

If we die in a state of mortal sin we go immediately to Hell. That is an infallible teaching of the Church.

Bring forth that teaching, and we can discuss it.

CCC 1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, “eternal fire.” The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

 

[OneSheep]

Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell

As Bishop Barron stated, we shouldn’t be surprised that there might be no one in hell, so this means that we should not be surprised that no one is in a state of mortal sin at death. Indeed, I have had long discussions with one of the posters here, and he was unsuccessful in proving when mortal sin is possible in real-human experience. In theory, however, it is still possible.

That case wasn’t a valid case.

Source?

It’s pretty telling what the intentions of the Pharisees were. They didn’t enact justice.

You don’t know if they had already disposed of the man. Again, if you think the point of the story is that Jesus was correcting a legal error, you have missed the point. Are you saying that if the crowd was stoning both the man and the woman, then Jesus would have stood by nodding?

Again, cite your sources.

 

[Julius_Caesar]

Again, cite your sources.

Cite yours.

Are you saying that if the crowd was stoning both the man and the woman, then Jesus would have stood by nodding

Who spoke in the Law prescribed?