Maybe I should stay Protestant

[WesPilgrim]

In plain language, the question should never be: ‘Do I like that kind of service?’* [or “Are the people friendly?”] *but ‘Are these doctrines true: Is holiness here? Does my conscience move me towards this? Is my reluctance to knock at this door due to my pride, or my mere taste, or my personal dislike of this particular doorkeeper?’" – C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity(italics are mine, everything else is C.S. Lewis)

With all due respect to Bro. Lewis, whom I greatly admire, genuine warmth and cordiality should be natural by-products of holiness. I think, for instance, the Catholic parish I’ve been worshiping in these past number of months has great potential, but culturally they are not conditioned to look for new people, and make sure such visitors get spoken to by a few different people, invited out to dinner, and such. Let’s just say it— the Evangelicals could take “us” to school on that one, and we probably should enroll gladly.
I’ve not been troubled by this in that this “Catholic thing” has been sort of a solitary contemplative journey— but I do worry about how my wife would see the climate should she ever go with me.
blessings, Wes

 

[mardukm]

Unlike other Churches, a Latin Catholic parish is SO big. And there are many Masses, which would get complicated if you don’t attend at a set time. For all the person next to you knows, you are just a regular parishioner from another Mass time. So a newcomer should not expect to be singled out as a newcomer and be approached. What I have seen is people approaching the pastor or priest before Mass that he/she/we is/are visiting, or is new, and the priest will announce it. At that point, people are sure to pick you out among the huge throng and approach you afterwards.

Otherwise, as someone has suggested early in this thread, go out and get involved in one of the parish activities, and make a conscious effort to make the parish your spiritual home.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[Brownsugar]

HI Dave, WELCOME BACK HOME!!!..you would not believe but I am from a place you probably never heard of in the Caribbean. WHat we do every Sunday morning is welcome visitors to our mass and encourage them. However, if your heart is longing for truth and committment to God, maybe by you setting the trend in welcoming others, that might change in your church. Maybe you need to start a welcome committee. A lot of the times we do not get what we expect from our own, and therefore we never give it. My prayer is that you do not let that decide for you where you worship but rather, let the whole meaning of the Mass be the meaning of your reason for wanting to be Catholic. Fellowship is good and is essential…for that is what the early Christians did…and we must follow. You must be a lead in the lives of the early Christians. God bless you.

 

[malphono]

malphono;6406779:

Khrystyne;6410075:

malphono;6410088:

Khrystyne;6498197:

Even though the Catholic Church is the true Church the Protestants sure do have it down with the most important of the three.

…LOVE.Well, that last part is strictly a matter of opinion, and one that I, personally, do not share. That said, though, I am not looking for an argument nor will I engage in a debate.1 Corinthians 13:13
So faith, hope, love remain, these three; but the greatest of these is love.

The Two Great commandments;

Love God with all your heart, mind, and strength and
Love your neighbor as yourself.Yes, I know, but that’s not what I meant.The Catholic Church IS the true Christian Church, a fact whether you believe it or not.

It seems that you still don’t get it. :banghead: It’s the bolded words above that I don’t buy.

 

[rcjones]

It is even more interesting that so many of your experiences are so similar that you would presume I visited during a service. I didn’t. I went on Saturdays specifically to find someone to answer questions. There were plenty of people around.

There were plenty of people with whom I interacted wherein I took the initiative specifically stating that I had questions.

So you may assert that you have truth all you wish. But what truth is it you have? Why should I consider what is offered when nothing has been offered? Sorry to be brutal about it. The fact is that only one person expressed a desire to answer questions but said he wasn’t authorized to. One pastor thrust a OE Bible into my hands and said the answers were in there.

Well the OE Bible with commentary was largely written by a Protestant who converted, so the commentary is largely the same as found in Protestant Bibles.

If you have been given the most truth, then you will be judged the most harshly.

Lu 12:48 … For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: .

Are you so secure in your truth that you no longer fear God?

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. [pounded on your door seeking truth, and you opened not]
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

If your truth makes you blind to those around you, frankly I am not interested. Many of you condemn me for being sola scriptura. What have you left me? One of your priests handed me a Bible and said the answers were there, rather than answer questions. He is sola scriptura too.

 

[guanophore]

I was saved while very much in isolation, so I have no denominational background. I have attempted to find where I belong.

Welcome to CAF, and you are to be commended for taking on this work.

 I have been to two EO churches, wishing to have questions answered.  I walked into the one and their baptistry was broken. So I fixed it. I was hoping to chat with someone.  No one bothered. No one wanted to answer questions.  I have seen the pastor in town twice since then and he simply patronizes me.

This is honorable of you. You were among them as one who serves.

My expereince has been that the Eastern churches have a very different understanding and method of evangelism They are very family and culturally based. People come into the Church by being born into a belieiving family, or marrying into one. They do not have any experience like the modern American Evangelical movement.

At the one it was explained that they were primarily Greek.

Yes. All the Eastern Churches are very centered around culture and language.Usually the pastor and the members know every single person in the congregation, and they don’t get many “visitors”. If they do, the visitors are very obvious as non-members of the community, and the congregation often wonders why they are there.

God miraculously sent Philip to the Eunuch, and no one could bother to talk with a guy who was serving them on his own time and trying to ask questions. One might be tempted to think that these folks don't know Philip's God.

One might be tempted, but it would be a grave mistake to give in to such temptation. One must be very cautious in judging the faith of another, especially when they are from a different culture and background. It is falling into this type of temptation that has caused the divisions that are present to day in the Body of Christ. Had you considered that you were the one who was sent to reach out to them? If so, how is it you could take offense because you were not warmly received?

  I am content with what God has provided for me, but one would be hard pressed to get me to have even the slightest interest in either one of them.  If there is truth there, they certainly don't act like it, and there are those on this thread with the same attitudes.

I think you are saying that you are judging them by their fruits, and since you did not see the fruits you were expecting, then you are assuming that their faith experience is not valid.

So I am sola scriptura because the behavior of Catholics makes me so.

At first this seems like a completely absurd statement. To embrace a heresy because another human being behaved badly does not seem to make any sense at all.

Perhaps you are trying to say that you don’t think the Catholic Church has divine authority because some Catholics rebel against that authority, sinning against God and man. if so, this is just like saying that, since Judas betrayed Jesus, then His teaching had no authority.

and I was saved with only a Bible in hand, no Catholic invited me, no Catholic welcomed me. I am barely tolerated here. Don’t misunderstand me. It is a form of asceticism which is good for the soul.

It seems you have been very hurt by the fact that Catholics have not warmly received you. If this is because you have embraced other heresies along with Sola Scriptura, perhaps the Catholics have not done a very good job of welcoming you, without welcomimg the departures from the Apostolic faith. You must be aware that we are forbidden to embrace such heresies, and must “flee from evil” when they present themselves. Sometimes, Catholics do not separate the persons like yourself who are searching for Truth from the wayward ideas they have absorbed along the way.

 So in my experience, not many Catholics really believe in grace being imparted by the church, or they don't believe they are the church, either way, they are functional Protestants.

It is regrettable that you have not experienced many Catholics that don’t understand grace, and the Church. I agree with you, most American Catholics are functional Protestants. They either do not know, or refuse to accept the teachings of the Church. It is embarrasing and shameful. I am with Pope Benedict on this one. I think it would be much better to have smaller numbers of people claiming to be Catholic, and those few being more pure in their faith.

 

[Contarini]

Interesting thread.

I was saved while very much in isolation, so I have no denominational background. I have attempted to find where I belong.

I have been to two EO churches, wishing to have questions answered. I walked into the one and their baptistry was broken. So I fixed it. I was hoping to chat with someone. No one bothered. No one wanted to answer questions. I have seen the pastor in town twice since then and he simply patronizes me.

At the one it was explained that they were primarily Greek.

God miraculously sent Philip to the Eunuch, and no one could bother to talk with a guy who was serving them on his own time and trying to ask questions. One might be tempted to think that these folks don’t know Philip’s God.

I am content with what God has provided for me, but one would be hard pressed to get me to have even the slightest interest in either one of them. If there is truth there, they certainly don’t act like it, and there are those on this thread with the same attitudes.

So I am sola scriptura because the behavior of Catholics makes me so. I was saved with only a Bible in hand, no Catholic invited me, no Catholic welcomed me. I am barely tolerated here. Don’t misunderstand me. It is a form of asceticism which is good for the soul.

So in my experience, not many Catholics really believe in grace being imparted by the church, or they don’t believe they are the church, either way, they are functional Protestants.

Actually, they’re quite different from Protestants precisely for the reasons you note. In practice, most cradle Catholics and Orthodox assume that people are going to be whatever religion (or variety of Christianity) they were born into. Many of them find the idea of “conversion” odd.

You are assuming that the Catholic/Orthodox theology of the Church should naturally go with an evangelical approach to evangelization. It doesn’t. And particularly given the development of a more generous view of the salvation of non-Catholics in the past few centuries, Catholics are less likely to evangelize than they once were (except for the EWTN/Catholic Answers types who are deeply influenced by American evangelicalism).

Personally, I find this refreshing. Obviously you don’t.

Edwin

 

[guanophore]

With all due respect to Bro. Lewis, whom I greatly admire, genuine warmth and cordiality should be natural by-products of holiness.

I agree. However, there are many faithful people who dont’ necessarily have good social or evangelical skills.

 I think, for instance, the Catholic parish I've been worshiping in these past number of months has great potential, but culturally they are not conditioned to look for new people, and make sure such visitors get spoken to by a few different people, invited out to dinner, and such.  Let's just say it--- the Evangelicals could take "us" to school on that one, and we probably should enroll gladly.

Yes, this is very true. I think that American Catholics have developed a somewhat insular and defensive culture, and don’t reach out well at all. Some of this is a simple lack of skills, but some of it has historical and cultural roots. One must be mindful that the Pilgrims were attempting to escape theCatholic Church when they came to America. This country was founded on principles that would make it legal to avoid Catholics. Catholics were heavily persecuted, discrimminated against, and sometimes put to death for their faith. They learned to keep their faith to themselves. I think this insular pattern has persisted beyond it’s usefulness.

I’ve not been troubled by this in that this “Catholic thing” has been sort of a solitary contemplative journey— but I do worry about how my wife would see the climate should she ever go with me.

Most likely she would experience it as many of us have, cold, distant, and maybe feel rebuffed. It was this lack of warmth, among other things, that fueled my departure into Protestant circles. We all have emotional and social needs as well as spiritual.

 

[Allyson]

You say that the Pilgrims were escaping the Catholics? Catholicism was illegal in England. Everyone was expected to be a member of the Church of England, which was and still is decidedly not Catholic!!! This is why the Pilgrims left; they were seeking to be in a place where they could be free of such a requirement.

As for Cathlicism in America, it was indeed illegal in all of the colonies except Maryland. Religious freedom in Early America did not mean freedom of worship for everyone. Rather it wa the freedom to establish your religion as the only one to be in your colony. I believe that the Puritans (Pilgrims) who founded Massachusetts made that the only legal denomination in that colony.

I agree. However, there are many faithful people who dont’ necessarily have good social or evangelical skills.

Yes, this is very true. I think that American Catholics have developed a somewhat insular and defensive culture, and don’t reach out well at all. Some of this is a simple lack of skills, but some of it has historical and cultural roots. One must be mindful that the Pilgrims were attempting to escape theCatholic Church when they came to America. This country was founded on principles that would make it legal to avoid Catholics. Catholics were heavily persecuted, discrimminated against, and sometimes put to death for their faith. They learned to keep their faith to themselves. I think this insular pattern has persisted beyond it’s usefulness.

Most likely she would experience it as many of us have, cold, distant, and maybe feel rebuffed. It was this lack of warmth, among other things, that fueled my departure into Protestant circles. We all have emotional and social needs as well as spiritual.

 

[malphono]

As for Cathlicism in America, it was indeed illegal in all of the colonies except Maryland.

I believe there was one other exception: Rhode Island. If memory serves, Roger Williams was very specific in his declaration of “religious liberty” at the time that he founded the colony.

 

[WesPilgrim]

Unlike other Churches, a Latin Catholic parish is SO big. And there are many Masses, which would get complicated if you don’t attend at a set time. For all the person next to you knows, you are just a regular parishioner from another Mass time. So a newcomer should not expect to be singled out as a newcomer and be approached. What I have seen is people approaching the pastor or priest before Mass that he/she/we is/are visiting, or is new, and the priest will announce it. At that point, people are sure to pick you out among the huge throng and approach you afterwards.
Otherwise, as someone has suggested early in this thread, go out and get involved in one of the parish activities, and make a conscious effort to make the parish your spiritual home.

Blessings,
Marduk

For my part, and speaking to this “market” — and I’ve attended and worked for evangelical churches in this “market” with multiple services and similar size congregations-- and there is still a problem. Now, I’m not widely traveled as a “near Catholic”, but it is interesting that persons that come from evangelical churches seem to often make this same observation all around the country. Most of my Catholic friends seem to concur with my observation.
To the extent that what I describe is a problem, part of it must be accepted as unavoidable. We (as Catholics) are actually going to church to encounter the living God in a way that he can’t be visited otherwise; we are not going to a pep-rally for Jesus (the evangelical service). Both events are significant, but they engender different postures and atmospheres. I get that. I’m just saying that because of the public relations disadvantage to the seeker that Catholic’s have, let’s all be proactive outside the building and at other opportunities to create a climate of warmth. I’m not a seeker that has to be sold.
sign me, trying to help,
Wes

 

[Allyson]

I believe there was one other exception: Rhode Island. If memory serves, Roger Williams was very specific in his declaration of “religious liberty” at the time that he founded the colony.

That could be true at some point in time. I know that Maryland was one - hence the name - it was founded specifically for Catholics. Thanks for the tip. The only things left to know is what did he mean by “religious liberty” and how far did that extend.

 

[GentleKnight60]

It seems to me that you are confusing hospitality with spirituality. One can walk through the local mall and not get a smile or even a comment. Hospitality does not reflect the church, it reflects the individual. EO churches are known to very conservative. But I’m a Catholic and I’m one of those who keeps to himself. It’s not that I’m not friendly but when I go to Mass I go arrive about 30 minutes early to pray. Believe me, I have lots of personal things I pray about as well as praying for others. I pray for friends, family members, people who are suffering from physical or mental problems, the poor, the sick, the elderly, and those who are unemployed etc. And you have to realize that there are others who are doing the same thing or have to bear those crosses. We may have our hands folded or are sitting just staring at the Cross. I know many Catholics who sit and pray the Rosary. Some people are sitting and praying with difficult problems, like the death of a loved one, the breakup of a relationship, maybe even some dealing with thoughts of suicide. So we go to church, giving our problems up to God, begging for His relief and comfort and forgiveness of our sins. Guess we could do all this at home and go to church and laugh and be friendly…but it’s not the same. In all the Catholic churches I’ve visited I feel the real presence and the closeness of God. And boy, it sure does hurt me when I my heart is hurting and people are talking out loud about their vacations, someone’s daughter is getting married, parking spaces are hard to find etc. So, if you want a smile, be the first to smile, if you want interaction with someone or need some spiritual guidence then make an appointment to talk with a priest or deacon. If want to learn more about being Catholic then join the RCIA program (group setting, meets about once a week at your local parish) which is for those who desire to become Catholics or to learn more about the Catholic faith (you don’t have to join the Catholic church if you don’t want to)…and I understand they are very friendly and smile a lot Just like you noticed, one cannot judge a person or church from the outside, it’s whats on the inside that counts!

 

[WesPilgrim]

It seems to me that you are confusing hospitality with spirituality. One can walk through the local mall and not get a smile or even a comment.

Forgive me for isolating on this one part of your post, in that you’ve shared a number of valuable thoughts, but if I might— it is the contrast with the mall, or supermarket as someone mentioned earlier, that I would like to encourage.
The Catholic worship experience is more vertical than most, ie God directed, and I would not have that change for all the world-- this is what brought me to this point of near Catholic (and by His mercy one day I will swim the Tiber!). I’m just saying since you/“we” may appear cold to the seeker, let’s try to compensate in the parking lot. Let’s let down our urban guard and risk some eye contact, a nod, or a smile. I direct this admonition especially to those that sense they have gifting in hospitality and evangelism in particular. As has been stated its not everyone’s thing.
blessings, Wes

 

[Khrystyne]

It seems that you still don’t get it. :banghead: It’s the bolded words above that I don’t buy.

:grouphug: No, I do get it. :yup:

God Bless You :hug1:

 

[Nightingales]

Why should anyone attend a catholic service when “all” you have to do is attend for a few minutes? How many times have I seen folks come in to mass late, leave early and their explanation is “you don’t have to stay for the whole mass to make it count”.

Is this what God wants?

 

[renper]

The Catholic Church IS the true Christian Church, a fact whether you believe it or not.
I decided long ago that I needed to humble myself and conform rather than reform. Despite sufferings I remain in the Catholic Church because Christ established her AND that is where He has led me. He answered my prayer in seeking and asking Him where the truth can be found. Period. Submitting ego/pride is such a glorious and painful task.

I’m a cradle Catholic/Convert, and after some intense demonic experiences and having run to the Catholic Church into the magisteriums arms it was proven pretty clearly where the truth of the truth can be found, why would I go anywhere else? That pretty much did it for me. I’m not satisfied with half truths and following error, oh how the devil can play with our minds all over the place. Prayer is absolutely essential and having a sincere and OPEN heart and mind to the truth. I pray that people will not have to suffer what I have suffered, but if Christ wants you He’ll allow it to prove your nothingness and bring you to your knees.

I hope someone out there takes this to heart and heeds the message of direction to Christ’s Church, the Catholic Church. Don’t waste one more day on the fence.

God Bless.

This is all but true. You are right. I 'm born catholic and i have learned so much that i was able to surprise friends from other religion.It’s not that i m so good but they figured out they didn’t know a big part of the truth. And i still have a lot to learn.Some of u , non -catholics ,want a better welcome on this site.But are you really seeking a better place? We shouldn’t look for what others are bringin to us without making a first step. We catholics are ready to help u.so write to us .Don’t play the victim without making a real step forward. I 'm there like other catholics .so lets make it happen

 

[wanner47]

Why should anyone attend a catholic service when “all” you have to do is attend for a few minutes? How many times have I seen folks come in to mass late, leave early and their explanation is “you don’t have to stay for the whole mass to make it count”.

Is this what God wants?

No, and it’s not what the Catholic Church wants, either. The Church encourages full participation in the Mass, from beginning to end, and encourages the faithful to come early and/or stay after for private prayer as well.

Unfortunately, as in every denomination, some people are just interested in doing the bare minimum. Other Catholics, such as physicians who work on an on-call capacity, do have legitimate reasons for needing to know if a Mass “counts” in the event that they arrive late or leave early. But these guidelines are NOT meant to encourage regular lay Catholics to just do the bare minimum if there is no reason they cannot attend an entire Mass from start to finish.

 

[Nightingales]

You can set your watch by watching folks flood out of the church my folks attend. Soon as they “get” communion, they are out the door, grabbing a smoke, pulling a soda out of their pockets and using profane language, of course, until next week when the again “go and get it done”.

 

[kage_ar]

If you came in on a Saturday you likely found people who were cleaning, prepping for Sunday Liturgy and Social events. Give them a break, none of them may be comfortable with apologetics.

Make an appt with the Church Office to talk to the Pastor or Director of Religious Education.