Meaning in life for an atheist

[paul_c]

God is the creating entity and does not require another creating entity to create it. This is definitional. God= creating entity

The universe is a creation. It needed to be created by something.

 

[Dameedna]

God is the creating entity and does not require another creating entity to create it. This is definitional. God= creating entity

The universe is a creation. It needed to be created by something.

As much as “god” could be the first cause or creator, as in God is something real and tangible and eternal, then the universe could be the cause of itself. It is eternal and has alway’s existed in one form or another.

Yes I understand what you are saying, but saying it doesn’t make it true.

If God can exist eternally, without cause then so can the universe.

 

[Dameedna]

That’s not what (s)he said. The point is God can’t be measured directly. An entitiy capable of creating the universe is way too great to be measured by us simple humans. We can, however, measure his works. We can trace back the start of the iniverse 13.7B years ago. We can extrapolate where it started. we can see that they whole universe follows a consistent set of laws (like gravity) and is built of a set of common subatomic particles, all organized in consistent and predictable patterns. When you look out around you , you can see the majesty and creativity of God in his creations.

Or you can choose to believe that all this came together out of random chance (never bothering to calculate the odds), because you personally haven’t seen God and are incapable of extroplating his existence from his works (but I’m sure you can extrapolate the existence of air, which you also can’t see, but what it does)…

Some of us start with a blank Canvas, not an assumption that there is a God in the first place.

You are claiming we can see God in his works, but what we are actually seeing, the ONLY thing we see, is a Universe. Not a creator, JUST a universe. The creator is a hypothesis.

You can claim that God cannot be measured by humans, which is pretty much a get out of jail free card for any believer. It means, you can believe whatever you want because it can never be quantified.

Having said that, I DO find the universe (the more I learn about it and the current astropyshics) is that it is incredibly spooky. Not scary spooky, just very bizarre spooky. The likelihood of any of it occuring, is so tiny that it is almost impossible to believe something ISN’T behind it.

But, at the end of the day, the possibility that The universe is a self-perpetuating mechanism, that something CAN come out of nothing(as physics has already determined), you have both the possibility of a “watchmaker” and a possibility of none.

That’s the conclusion I come to, when I start with a blank canvas and draw a conclusion that is not dependant on what I want to be believe.

 

[saieditor]

I think an atheist can have a meaningful life without God even though life itself does not have any purpose.

An atheist has a life of Faith. An atheist goes to sleep every night with faith in himself or herself that they will wake up on the morning.

You cannot deny that an atheist has faith in themselves.

 

[paul_c]

Some of us start with a blank Canvas, not an assumption that there is a God in the first place.

You are claiming we can see God in his works, but what we are actually seeing, the ONLY thing we see, is a Universe. Not a creator, JUST a universe. The creator is a hypothesis.

You can claim that God cannot be measured by humans, which is pretty much a get out of jail free card for any believer. It means, you can believe whatever you want because it can never be quantified.

Having said that, I DO find the universe (the more I learn about it and the current astropyshics) is that it is incredibly spooky. Not scary spooky, just very bizarre spooky. The likelihood of any of it occuring, is so tiny that it is almost impossible to believe something ISN’T behind it.
But, at the end of the day, the possibility that The universe is a self-perpetuating mechanism, that something CAN come out of nothing(as physics has already determined), you have both the possibility of a “watchmaker” and a possibility of none.

That’s the conclusion I come to, when I start with a blank canvas and draw a conclusion that is not dependant on what I want to be believe.

It’s good that you are open to the possibility that there is a God and that you are now thinking about it. You are absolutely correct that the likelihood of the universe occuring by chance is impossibly low. That’s is absolutely the starting point of reasoning this out. Then you start layering in the other factors:.
Order requires intelligence and energy to create and maintain, . Physical laws require a law maker, and pretty soon it seems ridiculous to believe that there isn’t something out there that started and controls all this. Once you get past that, the next discussion becomes: what is the nature of that entity…

 

[Fran65]

You can claim that God cannot be measured by humans… It means, you can believe whatever you want because it can never be quantified.

No, we can’t. God can only have the characteristics that are consistent with His action as the creator. Outside space and time, omnipotent, omniscient, all good…

That is why we don’t believe in fairies, unicorns or chocolate teapots. They are not supported by reasoning.

And before you ask, no, I’m not going through all the reasoning. It is all available at your fingertips and I think you’re more than capable of working through it yourself. There are also plenty of other threads working through the sorts of objections that you may have.

Crow, you misrepresent what I said. I did not say that only unscientific evidence applies! I was, as explained by paulc, (thank you paul!) saying that God is not observable or measurable in the sense that some want Him to be.

For the rest of my reply, may I refer you to the answer I gave at the start of this post.

 

[nirvana777]

So in order for reasoin to exist you have to see it or know its there, YOu see gravity in action and its supported by reason and principles gravity didn’t exist until Newton, of course god isn’t gravity but he’s a principle that can be supported by other principles

 

[Dameedna]

It’s good that you are open to the possibility that there is a God and that you are now thinking about it. You are absolutely correct that the likelihood of the universe occuring by chance is impossibly low. That’s is absolutely the starting point of reasoning this out. Then you start layering in the other factors:.
Order requires intelligence and energy to create and maintain, . Physical laws require a law maker, and pretty soon it seems ridiculous to believe that there isn’t something out there that started and controls all this.

The problem with all this, is it puts a great deal of faith in human reasoning, and there is no valid “reason” to me, as to why we should actually do so.

We are very flawed creatures, and no assumptions about our reasoning coming from God, make it an actual fact.

Once you get past that, the next discussion becomes: what is the nature of that entity…

I realized at one point I had to learn to seperate the idea of “something” from religion completely, because it was religion (and different historical occurances) and the religious(some horrible people I’ve met) that was actually turning me away from the entire concept.

It was, and still is a very difficult thing to do. Everytime I see something being done in the name of religion(FDLS , suicide bombers, stoning, decapitations), I hurry back to my safe and some-what more moral world view as an agnostic and skeptic. I would rather die, than lose my humanity as some people have in the name of God.

I think you will find, that more often than not, it is religion and some of the religous that turn athiests away. A lot of religious people are just not careful enough about what they say around atheists I think. But that, is another thread

 

[Fran65]

Everytime I see something being done in the name of religion(FDLS , suicide bombers, stoning, decapitations)…

The important phrase here is in the name of religion. Those are not done by religion. They are done by people.

There are corrupt police officers, there are incompetent Doctors, there are clumsy and short tempered dentists. However, I’m not going to reject law enforcement, medicine or dentistry.

I know the next objection is that religion ‘should’ change people. However, that change can only happen if a person’s heart and mind is open and willing to be conformed to God’s will and not their own. I would argue that those who carry out hateful and terrible acts are not people who are open to God’s love.

Institutions that have a hierarchy, give a promise (often misunderstood) of status (the saved/the righteous) and gives an established role in society will always attract those looking to exploit, manipulate and raise themselves over others. It doesn’t mean that the institution is wrong. It tells something about people. There are a lot of good, loving and caring people in religions, we just don’t pay much attention to them.

One religious man carries out an act of abuse. 50 thousand don’t. Who do we pay attention to and remember?

Religion is not the problem. People are.

 

[crowonsnow]

That’s not what (s)he said. The point is God can’t be measured directly. An entitiy capable of creating the universe is way too great to be measured by us simple humans. We can, however, measure his works. We can trace back the start of the iniverse 13.7B years ago. We can extrapolate where it started. we can see that they whole universe follows a consistent set of laws (like gravity) and is built of a set of common subatomic particles, all organized in consistent and predictable patterns. When you look out around you , you can see the majesty and creativity of God in his creations.

Or you can choose to believe that all this came together out of random chance (never bothering to calculate the odds), because you personally haven’t seen God and are incapable of extroplating his existence from his works (but I’m sure you can extrapolate the existence of air, which you also can’t see, but what it does)…

Measuring the universe somehow indirectly measures a god? That can be believed I suppose. It can also indirectly measure an army of invisible aliens standing alongside. I don’t see what is gained in such an analogy. To me that’s like saying that from a photon we can surmise the existence of animal XYZ. That’s not possible. Again I don’t see what’s gained using such an analogy. But if it gives meaning and purpose, who’s to argue I guess.

The universe or cosmos is everywhere all the time and I personally see no need to explain it anymore than you see a need to explain an invisible creature that makes it. In my view, if one is willing to conclude that something can just happen to exist, one need not invent stories of invisible creatures to confirm that conclusion. An invisible entity is as meaningless as a universe.

 

[crowonsnow]

One religious man carries out an act of abuse. 50 thousand don’t. Who do we pay attention to and remember?

Religion is not the problem. People are.

That’s true. I get hammered by people claiming atheism is evil because of Hitler and Stalin, both of whom were baptized Christians.

There are only people and what they do. Perceived religiosity is as unimportant as skin color. To grant either a privileged position is to embrace prejudice.

Pardon the digression.

 

[Dameedna]

The important phrase here is in the name of religion. Those are not done by religion. They are done by people.

Since religion has alway’s been a product of the human mind it’s a bit of a catch 22. If humans have a problem and human religious understanding comes from their failable minds(even if given by god) then religion will be problematic.

When one blames religion, they are blaming the mankind that embraced it in the first place.

So I don’t blame religion , I blame man. It’s actually one and the same.

I know the next objection is that religion ‘should’ change people.

Goodness gracious no. Religion, as a concept has absolutely no power to change anyone. People will only change, IF the right conditions are met for change and if they want to.

However, that change can only happen if a person’s heart and mind is open and willing to be conformed to God’s will and not their own.

Unfortunately for all humans we have a different idea on what Gods will is, and what that change SHOULD be, if we followed Gods will(according to said human).

IE, the FDLS would say God has given them grace and shown them the truth because they have an open heart.

What happens when a persons heart is so open, that they reject your religion and accept God?

You will say, then they aren’t really accepting God according to church truth. They think they are accepting truth, and apparently that’s all that it takes.

Institutions that have a hierarchy, give a promise (often misunderstood) of status (the saved/the righteous) and gives an established role in society will always attract those looking to exploit, manipulate and raise themselves over others. It doesn’t mean that the institution is wrong. It tells something about people.

Institutions are man made and since man does stupid thing, should alway’s be called into question. Claiming the “man” and “doctrine” are protected by something is a man made claim. It’s failable.Just going by history here. You could be right. The one person as overseer approach might eventually work. I doubt it. They will be human after all.

There are a lot of good, loving and caring people in religions, we just don’t pay much attention to them.

One religious man carries out an act of abuse. 50 thousand don’t. Who do we pay attention to and remember?

Ah this is very true. Pity they cannot accept the failures of their religious establishment as well.