Medical School & NFP Advice [From current or past med students]

[Rau]

Otherwise…we decide in isolation without spiritual guidance. No thanks. I’m NOT trying to start an argument here, but it should at least be entertained that perhaps the Church doesn’t mean that one should use NFP for 4-5 years at a time while one is in school. Marriage involves being open to life. I’d consult with a priest to determine whether a) we should get married and practice NFP for that length of time, or b) wait to get married until we can be *reasonably *open to life. Please, before anyone yells at me, I’m not attempting to read anyone’s heart here and it may well be justified to use NFP for this length of time for all I know. I think it would be prudent to investigate. For someone who isn’t yet married, it might be easy to think of NFP as Catholic birth control. That’s not really supposed to be its function.

And when 2 good and holy priests offer guidance that does not align? This is not like asking about the justification to remarry after divorce. There is not a singular and objective right answer that determines whether certain circumstances are sufficient to adopt nfp. There are priests loyal to catholic teaching who will assert that nfp is for the severest of circumstances only and those equally loyal who will assert a very different position.

Nfp is certainly a form of birth control. Its moral use has limits, but unlike other forms, those limits are not explicitly and objectively defined.

 

[gracepoole]

Well, given how fully stretched priests are just providing the Sacraments, and given how complicated nfp can be, requiring medical knowledge that the average priest hasn’t enough time to study (and perhaps feels uncomfortable doing so, who knows) is it really surprising?

The question isn’t what method to use, how to read one’s mucous, etc. The question is whether it’s licit to use NFP for such a sustained period for a reason like schooling. Yes, a priest should be able to answer such a question.

 

[gracepoole]

And when 2 good and holy priests offer guidance that does not align? This is not like asking about the justification to remarry after divorce. There is not a singular and objective right answer that determines whether certain circumstances are sufficient to adopt nfp. There are priests loyal to catholic teaching who will assert that nfp is for the severest of circumstances only and those equally loyal who will assert a very different position.

Nfp is certainly a form of birth control. Its moral use has limits, but unlike other forms, those limits are not explicitly and objectively defined.

Unlike ABC, NFP isn’t usually to be used indefinitely and without discernment. So no, it shouldn’t be considered Catholic birth control in the sense that it’s just another means of indefinitely avoiding children. Because its limits are not defined, spiritual guidance is necessary.

And you do realize that listing the same sins to two different priests can garner two different responses, right? It isn’t a question of avoiding discussion of NFP with priests so as to avoid different interpretations. As with all spiritual matters, it’s a question of finding a faithful, solid, trustworthy priest and accepting his response.

 

[gracepoole]

OP, if you don’t have a priest with whom you think you can discuss this, try locating experts in NFP. You can contact your diocese to locate local resources.

 

[Rau]

Unlike ABC, NFP isn’t usually to be used indefinitely and without discernment.

Right, the couple do the discerning, prayerfully. Rarely is nfp indefinite, but that is possible.

So no, it shouldn’t be considered Catholic birth control in the sense that it’s just another means of indefinitely avoiding children.

“Birth control” does not imply indefinite. It simply implies controlling births.

Because its limits are not defined, spiritual guidance is necessary.

There is no requirement that the process of discernment involves a third person.

And you do realize that listing the same sins to two different priests can garner two different responses, right? It isn’t a question of avoiding discussion of NFP with priests so as to avoid different interpretations. As with all spiritual matters, it’s a question of finding a faithful, solid, trustworthy priest and accepting his response.

There would be no compulsion whatsoever to accept his response. He is not a necessary nor determining part of the discernment process.

 

[gracepoole]

Right, the couple do the discerning, prayerfully. Rarely is nfp indefinite, but that is possible.

“Birth control” does not imply indefinite. It simply implies controlling births.

There is no requirement that the process of discernment involves a third person.

There would be no compulsion whatsoever to accept his response. He is not a necessary nor determining part of the discernment process.

sigh Of course there’s no “compulsion” to accept his response. Discernment is a thoughtful process. Gathering the feedback of a faithful priest is useful. Now, in addition to claiming that priests can’t provide such information, it seems it’s being claimed that even if they can, we should ignore it.

I honestly detest these discussions on CAF for just this reason. Asking whether 4-5 years spent avoiding children while married is a justified use of NFP should be a required question for any Catholic. The fact that people find ways to argue about this sort of thing, in addition to arguing about whether faithful priests can have any useful response to such a question, is a reason I may not miss CAF so much after all.

 

[Rau]

sigh Of course there’s no “compulsion” to accept his response. Discernment is a thoughtful process. Gathering the feedback of a faithful priest is useful.

If it is now just “feedback gathering” (to consult a priest) then why did you earlier advocate that it be accepted?

Now, in addition to claiming that priests can’t provide such information, it seems it’s being claimed that even if they can, we should ignore it.

Why do you now misrepresent what I said? That is something I detest.

I honestly detest these discussions on CAF for just this reason. Asking whether 4-5 years spent avoiding children while married is a justified use of NFP should be a required question for any Catholic.

Were that so, the Church would advocate that couples consult their priest prior to adopting nfp.

Again, you frame the question as though there is a definitive answer. 4-5 years, no, that’s too long. 2-3, that’s fine!

Of course consulting a priest is an option, and the priest will try to help the couple to understand what the church teaches. But only the couple can determine how that teaching resolves in their life and their situation, and I would suggest that in all but extreme cases, few if any priests would seek to offer a yes or no conclusion.

 

[bitterhope]

sigh Of course there’s no “compulsion” to accept his response. Discernment is a thoughtful process. Gathering the feedback of a faithful priest is useful. Now, in addition to claiming that priests can’t provide such information, it seems it’s being claimed that even if they can, we should ignore it.

I honestly detest these discussions on CAF for just this reason. Asking whether 4-5 years spent avoiding children while married is a justified use of NFP should be a required question for any Catholic. The fact that people find ways to argue about this sort of thing, in addition to arguing about whether faithful priests can have any useful response to such a question, is a reason I may not miss CAF so much after all.

Well, I agree with you but I’m not thinking you will find very many others that do.

 

[gracepoole]

If it is now just “feedback gathering” (to consult a priest) then why did you earlier advocate that it be accepted?

Why do you now misrepresent what I said? That is something I detest.

Were that so, the Church would advocate that couples consult their priest prior to adopting nfp.

Again, you frame the question as though there is a definitive answer. 4-5 years, no, that’s too long. 2-3, that’s fine!

Of course consulting a priest is an option, and the priest can help the couple to understand what the church teaches. But only the couple can determine how that teaching resolves in their life and their situation, and I would suggest that in all but extreme cases, few if any priests would seek to offer a yes or no conclusion.

You detest what you yourself do? :ehh:

Again, you frame the question as though there is a definitive answer. 4-5 years, no, that’s too long. 2-3, that’s fine!

Actually, from this post of mine:

Please, before anyone yells at me, I’m not attempting to read anyone’s heart here and it may well be justified to use NFP for this length of time for all I know. I think it would be prudent to investigate.

And then there’s this:

Were that so, the Church would advocate that couples consult their priest prior to adopting nfp.

I noted that the legitimacy of using NFP for 4-5 years should be a question for any Catholic couple planning to use it for that length of time. What a crazy idea. And to ask a priest! What was I thinking.

But hey, how about this? A couple rents and doesn’t want to buy a house until they can afford a house in a new development with a pool and 3 garage stalls. They decide to use NFP until they can make that happen. Or how about this? A couple decide they want to take a lavish tour of Europe and save money for that purpose. They decide to use NFP to make that possible. In both cases, the couple have sole control over determining whether the use of NFP is justified. Yet for the sake of their relationship with their faith and with God, they should probably ask a few questions – of themselves, of a priest, of knowledgeable NFP experts, etc. Probably something beyond an internet forum. Again, what a crazy idea.

No one is saying the OP doesn’t have sole discretion. Please quit that red herring. But if any Catholic here is legitimately arguing that he and his fiance shouldn’t at least consider whether their choice is justified, that’s really sad. And that’s essentially all I’m saying. So if you don’t argue with that, what is your problem?

 

[Rau]

You detest what you yourself do?

No, I detest misrepresentations. Such as your suggestion that I said we **should ignore **a priests remarks. I said we need feel **no compulsion to accept **his advice on the adoption of nfp. Do you not see how different these positions are?

I noted that the legitimacy of using NFP for 4-5 years should be a question for any Catholic couple planning to use it for that length of time. What a crazy idea. And to ask a priest! What was I thinking.

To quote me: “I would not argue that consulting a priest is a necessary step”. Yet you present me as ridiculing the idea of consulting a priest. Do you see how different these positions are?

But hey, how about this? A couple rents and doesn’t want to buy a house until they can afford a house in a new development with a pool and 3 garage stalls. They decide to use NFP until they can make that happen. Or how about this? A couple decide they want to take a lavish tour of Europe and save money for that purpose. They decide to use NFP to make that possible. In both cases, the couple have sole control over determining whether the use of NFP is justified. Yet for the sake of their relationship with their faith and with God, they should probably ask a few questions – of themselves, of a priest, of knowledgeable NFP experts, etc. Probably something beyond an internet forum. Again, what a crazy idea.

The first part of that seems a bit theatrical - it departs markedly from the substance and course of the thread and the points made. And as for those statements bolded, did anyone reject those? I believe my only variance from what you advocate was to note that consulting a priest is not a necessary step.

But if any Catholic here is legitimately arguing that he and his fiance shouldn’t at least consider whether their choice is justified, that’s really sad. And that’s essentially all I’m saying.

Has any Catholic here argued that? If so, point it out. Grace, it is only you who raises that suggestion…in order to condemn it. In this statement, you have manufactured an opposing position (implying that someone might be arguing it) and rejected it. And I can happily join you in that rejection (though not the premise that it was argued).

 

[gracepoole]

No, I detest misrepresentations. Such as your suggestion that I said we **should ignore **a priests remarks. I said we need feel **no compulsion to accept **his advice on the adoption of nfp. Do you not see how different these positions are?

To quote me: “I would not argue that consulting a priest is a necessary step”. Yet you present me as ridiculing the idea of consulting a priest. Do you see how different these positions are?

The first part of that seems a bit theatrical - it departs markedly from the substance and course of the thread and the points made. And as for those statements bolded, did anyone reject those? I believe my only variance from what you advocate was to note that consulting a priest is not a necessary step.

Has any Catholic here argued that? If so, point it out. Grace, it is only you who raises that suggestion…in order to condemn it. In this statement, you have manufactured an opposing position (implying that someone might be arguing it) and rejected it. And I can happily join you in that rejection (though not the premise that it was argued).

Aaaaaand I’m out. To argue about what should be acceptable to all Catholics insults all Catholics. If you feel a need to argue needlessly, the World News forum awaits you.

OP, may God bless you and your bride!

 

[Rau]

…To argue about what should be acceptable to all Catholics insults all Catholics.

And I might agree with you - if that had happened here. I’m confident I’ve insulted no one. I’m also pretty sure I’ve not disputed anything that should be acceptable to all Catholics. You may be confusing what I said, from what you claimed I (or someone) said.

 

[SusanneT]

My Fiancee and I will be getting married during the last half of her 4th year. Residency the next three years will be incredibly demanding on her physically and time wise. She will have ridiculously long and irregular hours (med people know how it is).

I’m looking for advice from anyone who has been down this road. We have been talking about whether we would do NFP, and the implications of having the child. We both agree that we just cannot afford a child in the first three years, out of desire for both the child’s health and my future wife’s health. She cannot take time off from residency, and so it would be imprudent to have a child then anyway.

So the advice I am looking for is from wives or husbands who have gone through residency. Did you practice NFP? How did it turn out for you? Was it a tough decision? Did you abstain?

Thanks

Would it be totally unreasonable for me to suggest that if it would be so difficult to welcome a child for several years it might be best to delay marriage until you do both feel ready ?

 

[Xantippe]

Would it be totally unreasonable for me to suggest that if it would be so difficult to welcome a child for several years it might be best to delay marriage until you do both feel ready ?

I feel like it’s just as unreasonable for two full-grown adults to delay marriage for “several years” as it is for them to delay trying for a baby for several years.

Multi-year engagements are kind of hinky.

In fact, the normal course of events would (unfortunately) be them winding up with a baby, marriage or no marriage.

 

[SusanneT]

I feel like it’s just as unreasonable for two full-grown adults to delay marriage for “several years” as it is for them to delay trying for a baby for several years.

Multi-year engagements are kind of hinky.

In fact, the normal course of events would (unfortunately) be them winding up with a baby, marriage or no marriage.

Or to get married and have a baby ! Which is kind of the natural course of events.

 

[Xantippe]

Or to get married and have a baby ! Which is kind of the natural course of events.

Winding up with $100,000+ in medical school debt and no right to practice as a doctor would be kind of a bummer and a real setback for a young family.

 

[SusanneT]

Winding up with $100,000+ in medical school debt and no right to practice as a doctor would be kind of a bummer and a real setback for a young family.

Then wait and get married at the right time. The point is that a married couple are called to welcome children and even if they do feel that NFP is justified the possibility of pregnancy will always be there.

 

[bitterhope]

Then wait and get married at the right time. The point is that a married couple are called to welcome children and even if they do feel that NFP is justified the possibility of pregnancy will always be there.

Very good point. NFP, just as all birth control, does have a failure rate.

 

[Xantippe]

Then wait and get married at the right time. The point is that a married couple are called to welcome children and even if they do feel that NFP is justified the possibility of pregnancy will always be there.

Speaking realistically, how many ardently Catholic couples do you know who had chaste 3-4-year-engagements starting in their mid or late-20s?

I think it does happen for young couples to meet in college in their late teens and then get married soon after graduation (so 22 or 23ish) and that does make sense, but I’ve really never come across a seriously Catholic young couple who had a 3-4 year engagement starting in their mid or late 20s.

That must happen once in a blue moon, but I personally can’t recommend doing something that I’ve never seen or heard of happening successfully. I have heard of faithful Catholic couples having an “oopsie” pregnancy just before getting married, or couples successfully using NFP for several years (my husband and I did that during graduate school), or couples having a baby or two in medical school–but what I have never heard of is chastely doing a 3-4 year engagement starting in the mid or late 20s.

Of all the possible plans, I think that one has the lowest chance of success.

 

[Mary_Gail_36]

I don’t agree, Xantippe.

I think two grownups should be capable of chastity.

Waiting a couple of years to be married is possible. Especially when marriage is a lifetime commitment.

But my opinion doesn’t matter, OP said he’s not waiting.