Medjugorje - A True Confession

[GoldenArrow]

Luke,

I am under the impression that Kingdom of the Virgin Mary in the Divine Will and The Hours of the Passion are off The List because the Archbishop of Trani is encouraging their study. As to the other volumes of the Book of Heaven that you mentioned — ???. I never knew that any books of her diary (Book of Heaven) were on the list. I thought only Kingdom of VM in DW and Hours of the Passion were once on the list. I’ll have to research that.

That’s why I no longer provide links to the website that provides all 19 volumes of the Book of Heaven, in English protomanuscript form. DW will be something I practice privately until such time the CDF to releases an official version. It is now all in their hands.

Also, if one reads some of the earlier mystics and then compares them to Piccarreta’s spirituality, you’ll see a clear distinction between the Betrothal/Unity/DW and Quietism. That’s all I’m allowed to say publically.

Sorry to the O.P. for the little sidestep.

And back to Medjugorje …

 

[GoldenArrow]

LOL!!! I’m such a dufus.

It should be The Virgin Mary in the Kingdom of the Divine Will, not the Kingdom of the VM in the DW. Oh man! “I declare myself a heretic!” Just kidding. LOL!!!

OK. The aforementioned book, in its third edition, has three Imprimaturs listed, but written in Italian. I’ll copy it for you. First edition (1932) Imprimatur della curia episcopale di Mentepulciano: +Giuseppe, Vescovo di Montepulciano. (I think this is english for Archbishop Joseph something?) Second edition (1933): Nihil Obstat quominus Reimprimatur Delagato dell’Archvesco Giuseppe Blandamura. Third edition (1937): Nihil Obstat Quominus Reimprimatur Mons. Francesco M. Dela Chueva S.M., Delagatus ab Achiepescopo. (I think one of those words was Archbishop. LOL!!!)

See what I mean? Confusing.

Oh, and the first 19 of the original Book of Heaven manuscripts written in the local Italian dialect of Luisa Piccarreta have a Nihil Obstat from St. Hannibal Di Francia and Imprimatur from Archbishop Joseph Leo. This Imprimatur, however, does not apply to the current English protomanuscripts—because of the English.The rest of the volumes, 36 in all, and including the previous 19, are under review, and re-review.

The CDF has taken control of the matter (one could arguably say say mess) as of 2005.

Very Sorry. I had to correct my oopsie.

And now back to Medjugorje …

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Luke, Golden Arrow,

Would you consider beginning a new thread on Divine Will? I would like to keep this one on topic of Medjugorje and not get into other issues like Poem of the Man God or Divine Will. Those issues can probably yield a fair discussion in and of themselves.

Thanks for considering.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Eliza10:

Diane, thanks of taking your time with all that and I do see your point. As I said, i will look into it further. I am still left wondering aobut the good fruit of Medjugorje. As it is alleged that Paul John Paul II said it is the spiritual heart of the world, it truly seems to be in many ways. Of course, I realize it is only alleged he said that. Its also alleged he said positive things of it. Perhaps he was doing what Paul said, and finding a point of agreement with people. Perhaps he is thinking of what is true and right and beautiful about it. Perhaps that what a lot of others are doing.

Cardinal Ratzinger addressed the issue, as well (from the Davies book):

On 28 July 1998 Cardinal Ratzinger wrote to a correspondent confirming that statements attributed to the Pope and to him in favour of Medjugorje had been “freely invented”. I possess a photocopy of this letter.

*Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger *

I-00120 CITTA DEL Vaticano

22 Juli 1998

Herrn …

00069 Trevignano Romano (RM)

Dear Mr. …

First of all, I have to apologize for answering your kind letter from 27th May only today. The burden (i.e. work load) of the last few weeks has been so heavy that I had to postpone my private correspondence again and again so that only now, as my vacation is about to begin, I can at last try to answer the more important letters.

I thank you very much for sending me the memorandum by Claus Peter Clausen, whom in fact I know as the author of the Schwarze Briefe (Black Letters). I can only say that the statements attributed to the Holy Father and me are freely invented.

With my best wishes for your manifold activities.

Josef Ratzinger

Well i will soon be offline for Lent. I find in winter I get more active on the computer, it becomes a habit, and giving it up for Lent is a noticable sacrifice for me. So just about three more days to write anything we want to say on this topic for now.

What a wonderful form of mortification as the computer, and the internet can be so addicting. I myself suffered from “attachment” so much so that I was spending hours daily. I finally told my confessor and we agreed that too much of even a good thing is bad. He alotted me twenty minutes daily for now. That’s hardly enough to read replies, but I bound myself freely to his counsel, which has been a struggle, but the right kind of struggle. It is amazing how much I’ve been getting done now that I only come on a few minutes in the AM. That is why some of my posts are short.

I wish you all the best during Lent and I think all of us should consider how cutting or eliminating computer time could be used as mortification and sacrifice.

God Bless!!!

 

[Eliza10]

LukeQ:

Eliza - It is speculative as to what the future holds. However, from my experience as:

• once being a believer in Medj. and other false apparitions and now as a supporter of the Church’s offical teaching;
• observations;
• and study of offical documents,
  many believers in Medj. are also believers in various other non approved or condemmed apparitions and locutions. It is a tight web where “believers” don’t seem to distinguish between authentic public revelation from the Magisterium, approved private revelation and non approved or condemned private revelation…

I hope you concede that one can be a firm beleiver of the Church’s official teachings and can also be a avid believer of private revelation that is not banned, not against any chruch teaching and yet does not hold chruch approval.

I do know Medj. beleivers who are very careful to distinguish between what is allowed to be believed and isn’t. They are generally are aware of the question of Medj. and say they are willing to let go any attachment if the Chruch officially rules against it. Bob and Penny Lord of EWTN are an example.

Medj. seers support “Poem of the Man God” which was put on the Church’s Prohibited Book List in the 1950’s…

I have my own opinions on that, and its in the Poem of the Man God thread that Diane initiated.

and it also supports the Marian Movement of Priests, (MMP), which in turn supports Medj,…

I know some really really exemplary Priests who are associated with that movement. Father Albert Shamon in our diocese was a beacon of light in the desert here for years. There are others. So I know little of MMP except that I can’t broadsweep discount it as you do here.

the condemned apparitions of Garabandal …

I know these are condemned.

and many other lesser know fraudulent apparitions. …

Yes, many are. There are many false prophets. Lots of people who want followers, who want the limelight. Do you acknowledge there are lesser-known apparitions that are not

fraudulant? Or do you blanket-discount them *all? *

Because that won’t do for me. If it does for you, fine. Cling tight to the officially-approved-only gifts of the Church and you will do fine. But that exclusivity is not required by the Catholic Church. And that is not how God leads everyone. So I hope you don’t stand in judgement of all those who don’t see it like you do. Because thats not approved of by God either, and I trust you can see that.

I know how God has worked in my life and with God’s grace I can trust in the discernment he has given me. I feel i know how far I can take that trust - its a trust that goes hand in hand with asking the Holy Spirit to lead me into truth.

When examinining a teaching or visonary, as soon as i see something clearly not of God, I turn and don’t turn back. There was one visionary I stumbled across on the computer, in Canada, who was into the “rapture” (!) and about his place in New Brunswick (I think) being an “assylum city” in endtimes. It took only a little reading to see fraud there. On many accounts. His arrogance, the questions he asked Mary and those “she” answered, and then there was a sure thing - he asked his son or daughter to never discuss the Church or the sacraments with him again! Whew!

I have found with reading of many visionaries that I get a feeling right away about the rightness or wrongness, and if I read just a little, something usually jumps out as clearly wrong. Everything else may be true, seemingly true, or fascinating, but its infected with a lie. So I can get pretty far on my own judgment which has been formed years by scripture and now by the Chruch and the sacraments. And when my discernemt tells me something is real, I don’t stand on that alone but also with what the Chruch has to say. So far, they have never conflicted. But if they ever do, I would have to choose, and I would chose to go with the Church.

I think thats a balanced way to go about it. And I don’t think I am unusual! Of course there are always unbalanced people in any movement. There even was among the Apostles!

LukeQ:

The seer Ivan, supports and participates in a prayer group when visiting Sydney, Australia dedicated to the heretical beliefs put forward in Luisa Piccarretta’s “Kingdom of the Divine Will” (KDW) of which Volumes 2,3 & 4 were also put on the prohibited Book list back in 1938 and never removed…

Never heard of her till you mentioned her here. Then i looked into it as soon as I read this thread, and in just a quick look-over, I thought: this seems real to me. Then i see Goldenarrow is a follower. Hmm. Its one I will look into more in the future!

[continued on next post]

 

[Eliza10]

[continued from previous post]

LukeQ:

Garabandal, MMP, KDW and Medjugorie present end times interpretations that condition believers into thinking they are the remnant, “the chosen ones”, not disimilar to dooms day cults. An elitist mentality like this is problematic at the very least and can lead to rebellion from within the Church, particularly if their group is formally ruled against - this may flag for them the start of the fulfilment of their false prophecies…

I think the remnant idea can be problematic, although any idea can. I have seen the “remnant” idea in the works of several visionaries but I never once saw it as meaning only those loyal to that particular visionary (uless it was a fraudulant visonary). I think in the end, the “remnant” will include those loyal to certain visionaries, and those not loyal to any.

… As I mentioned earlier, Masonic Hospitals do good work but Free Masonary is an adversary organisation to the Church…

Well most of us see how obviously anti-Catholic and anti-Christ the Masons are. Reminds me, my old Baptist Church had a Mason on its board who was a right hand man to the pastor in many ways. Seemed pretty hypocritical to me. The man was a most loyal, dependable, willing worker - which is why overlooked his association, I think.

 

[Eliza10]

Lux_et_veritas:

What a wonderful form of mortification as the computer, and the internet can be so addicting. I myself suffered from “attachment” so much so that I was spending hours daily. I finally told my confessor and we agreed that too much of even a good thing is bad. He alotted me twenty minutes daily for now. That’s hardly enough to read replies, but I bound myself freely to his counsel, which has been a struggle, but the right kind of struggle. It is amazing how much I’ve been getting done now that I only come on a few minutes in the AM. That is why some of my posts are short.

I wish you all the best during Lent and I think all of us should consider how cutting or eliminating computer time could be used as mortification and sacrifice.

God Bless!!!

Well, thanks. For me it seems not so wonderful as terribly neccesary. Like you, I find the internet to be one of those things so addicting to me. I love learning things and on forums I love discussing or sitting in on discussions of things I find interesting. In dark of the winter this interest increases. Then I get so inbalanced. Lent always helps me get something back in balance. Unfortunately every year this one comes back to me as needing balance! I like your confessor’s idea of limiting to twenty minutes a day. If you can do that then you certainly don’t need to give it up for Lent. Hopefully after Lent I can come up with “rule” for myself concerning it, that I can stick with - so I can focus more on another area next year.

 

[Tominellay]

The bishops of Bosnia-Hercegovina were in Rome last week for their ad limina visit…

 

[LukeQ]

To Eliza - Please refer to my first post on this thread which states what my motivations were on both sides of the fence regarding Medj. I feel the need to defend myself in what I hold to be true based on what you have written and this follows:

I mirror in belief what the Church teaches as regards public and private revelation. The core of my belief is that which is contained in the magisterium, (public revelation of the Bible as interpreted through the Catholic Church, including all Dogmas and traditions and Papal Encyclical teachings).

What I also include is devotion to the Rosary - an approved private revelation; Devotion to The Divine Mercy as revealed to St Faustina - an approved private revelation; belief in Loudes and Fatima - approved private revelations. I have particular fondness for St Luke, St Faustina and St Therese.

What I don’t believe in is any private revelation that is condemmed by a local Bishop as is the case with Medj. and my reasoning for this is based in Cannon Law as regards to the Charisms of a local bishop who is in union with the Pope.

If a private revelation has not been condemned primarily by the Local Bishop or secondarily by the CDF and it is in official process, I watch with interest unless there is not something in the teaching that is obviously wrong. There is a danger in believing in an unapproved apparition. Apparitions by their very nature tend to lead us by our heart first and our head second. This situation can develop blind spots in our reasoning when presented with facts that don’t support the apparition. The Church recommends that we do not emotionally attach to unapproved private revelations because we may be led astray and upon relaisation, be left with a broken heart. It is better to leave it to the Church if one feels attached to an unapproved private revelation.

Excluding the mention of my private revelation examples, would we not be on the same page?

My Masonic Hospital example was chosen by me to explain a principle in reasoning and logic the Church uses in assessing the authenticity of a private revelation. I know it is an obvious example but it was used to illustrate that judging on fruit to justify facts can lead to a false judgement because it is possible for evil to produce some good fruit over a time. That is why when assessing an apparition we can’t use the fruit arguement to justify the facts. Only when the facts are bona fide can we then look for consistancies in the fruit. Specifically to Medj. the fruits of conversions can be attributed to the conversional disposition of the pilgrims through God’s Grace via the sacrements of the Mass and Confession.

As regards to the remnant - this will consist of the faithful who are obiedient to their priests and bishops who are inturn obiedient to the Pope. (I am only speaking for Catholics here and am in no way implying that a non-catholic will not reach salvation which is funamentalist and not part of Catholic Doctrine). Criteria for a remnant jersey is not relient on which private relelation the faithful may believe in.

As regards to Golden Arrow, myself and KDW - KDW is an extremely complex series of apparitions and teachings with an equally complex set of formal processes dating back to 1924 with the first Nihil Obstat, a condemnation in 1938 and a new review that commenced with the CDF in 2005. Both Goldern Arrow and I are cordial in our offline discussions regarding our differing viewpoints. I have a confidence that we will both reach agreement and it will probably be through the Church decision if not sooner, through rigorous and friendly debate. I also would like to add that Goldern Arrow has made me aware that the local Archbishop and CDF have requested that KDW not be taught publically so I am now reluctant to debate publically KDW in obiedience.

I also have a confidence that you, Eliza and I will reach agreement over time because we have so much common ground in our understanding of the faith. I recommend that you read in your time the book that Lux refers to and investigate all its referencing.

I’ll check your opinion in time on Poem… in the related thread - thanks.

As to MMP - There is a direct link from MMP back to Medj authorising it, so, if Medj. is dissproved, MMP is dissproved on this point alone.

I do acknowlege that there are lesser know appartions that are approved - I really feel you have got me totally wrong in what I believe Eliza. I don’t stand in judgement over anyone at all. Where did you get this idea from?

I am signing off for Lent and I wish everyone all the Graces of the Lenten Season.

God bless,
Luke

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Eliza10:

Well, thanks. For me it seems not so wonderful as terribly neccesary. Like you, I find the internet to be one of those things so addicting to me. I love learning things and on forums I love discussing or sitting in on discussions of things I find interesting. In dark of the winter this interest increases. Then I get so inbalanced. Lent always helps me get something back in balance. Unfortunately every year this one comes back to me as needing balance! I like your confessor’s idea of limiting to twenty minutes a day. If you can do that then you certainly don’t need to give it up for Lent. Hopefully after Lent I can come up with “rule” for myself concerning it, that I can stick with - so I can focus more on another area next year.

Eliza,

I tried to squeeze another 10 minutes out of my confessor, but it didn’t work. I must say, I’m glad he stuck to his guns. What is good is the freedom that comes with successful mortification - that is, not jumping on the forums at will any time of the day, finally aided me in getting other more important things done, including some simple reading.

In any event, I recommend a 30 minute limit because 20 is hardly enough to read through responses in one thread since the last visit.



I think a good many of us will be limiting ourselves for Lent and I suppose this thread will drift off once again to be picked up at a later date when news comes out.

I do hope the mods will just let it drift, as opposed to locking it down, so we can resurrect it periodically to discuss the latest on Medjugorje. It helps not to have to keep repeating things previously cited. I want to thank everyone for the civility that has been displayed in what is an emotional issue for many of us, but in different ways.

God Bless and have a prayerful lent for all those who are signing off. I have taken on something quite different for the lent sacrifice, and it won’t include staying away from the forums. After all, there isn’t much left to give with only 20 minutes left out of several hours I use to spend per day.

 

[Eliza10]

Thanks Diane and Luke! Blessed Lent to all. I will pray for your intentions and also those of everyone here at Catholic Forums especially. Talk to you after Lent!

 

[Frankie]

**I’m trying to ration my internet time over Lent, too. **

May I just say I absolutely cannot understand why anyone can possibly believe the banal chatterbox Gospa could be Our Blessed Mother. As if she would run around the world appearing whenever one of these attention-seeking seers snaps his/her fingers.

Also, Medj is all tangled up with a whole other lot of unapproved apps.

This article is very helpful in relation to apparitions:

**Apparitions True and False **By FATHER PETER JOSEPH . ****

** Just Google it.**

 

[deekod1967]

**I’m trying to ration my internet time over Lent, too. **

May I just say I absolutely cannot understand why anyone can possibly believe the banal chatterbox Gospa could be Our Blessed Mother. As if she would run around the world appearing whenever one of these attention-seeking seers snaps his/her fingers.

Also, Medj is all tangled up with a whole other lot of unapproved apps.

This article is very helpful in relation to apparitions:

**Apparitions True and False ****By FATHER PETER JOSEPH . **

Just Google it.

An excellent article, thanks Frankie.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

HI Frankie,

I have read this article by Fr. Peter Joseph before and I do highly recommend it. Here is a direct link for those interested.

catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=6602

One thing we need to keep in mind is that the human soul does search for the meaning of life and people will often allow themselves be led in all kinds of directions. Often, they follow feelings which are not a true indication of anything. Mother Theresa experienced spiritual dryness for 15 years, but was closer to God than most of us. People who delve into New Age stuff, get themselve into some kind of ecstasy produced by the self, or the Angel of Darkness, then believe they are feeling God.

We must have charity and compassion for those who seek, but are disoriented by the many magnets in the world which cause their compasses to spin every which way but loose. The bat approach will never work, but we must encourage them to seek the truth from the right resources. All we can do is to lead them, gently to these things, and leave the rest to God.

All those who put so much stock in unapproved private revelations need to ask themselves

1. Why?
2. Does your faith in the existence of God require such things?
3. Why not immerse yourself in approved private revelations?
4. Am I self-authenticating these events in my heart, and by my actions? How does that contrast with what the local Ordinary has said about the events?
5. Have you sought to understand all facts, as provided by the local Ordinary, or is your understanding primarily based on those whom the Church does not give jurisdiction to discern?
6. Do you look only at the flaunted and visible good fruits, without considering the potential for less visible or downplayed bad fruits (often found through the local Ordinary’s written opinions and statements, and in documents he refers to, such as audio transcripts with “visionaries”)?
7. Have you explored what the local Ordinary says about a particular author, or a particular work of an author. For example, what does Bishops Zanic and Peric say about the works of Fr. Rene Laurentin with regards to Medjugorje? (Hint: Read the Davies book)

One place to check a little of this out is in the early days of Medjugorje when Bishop Pavao Zanic, then the Ordinary of Mostar, wrote: “The Truth about Medjugorje” in which he begins talk of Fr. Rene Laurentin and his involvement with Medjugorje.

I can provide many links, but for those seeking truth, it should be a relentless search for it. First and foremost, we should always receive what the local Bishop provides us with. Some authors have come out against Bishop Zanic after that was written, but others like Michael Davies in his book, Medjugorje - After Twenty One Years are able to show how incorrect these people are. I have provided the link to the davies website many times in this thread, so anyone needing it can backtrack.

I would rather err on the side of a local Ordinary, whom the Church gives jurisdiction by virtue of apostolic succession, than to err on the side of any theologian or other cardina/bishop who does not have jurisdiction. One enjoys the protection of the Holy Spirit to follow through with the will of God, the other does not. In the case of Bishops Zanic and Peric, contrary to what some books and websites proclaim, they have extensive proof as to just how deeply they studied the events and fruits of Medjugorje. The manner in which pro-Medjugorje authors and websites lead people to dismiss their views is also a fruit. If these bishops are totally incorrect, I will be looked upon favorably by God for humble acceptance of their position. God help me if I dismiss their view in favor of my own opinion or the opinions of those who do not enjoy jurisdiction if these bishops prove right. God save my soul if there is contempt in my heart involved in the latter, especially if it led me to detraction of a bishop, or passing on calumny and half-truths to others.

I set out to prove an anti-Medjugorje man wrong, and in the process of so doing, learned it was I who was wrong. This is what truth seeking and fact-finding can do.

 

[Tominellay]

Good post, Diane!

In his February 24, 2006, address to the bishops of Bosnia and Herzegovina on the occasion of their ad limina visit, Pope Benedict said, among other things, “It is up to the bishop, father of the community entrusted to him by Christ, to discern what is appropriate to the building of the Church of Christ. In this sense, the bishop is pontiff…”

 

[Tominellay]

Let me add that I think that people who discount the authority of an Ordinary in his diocese fool themselves…

 

[Tominellay]

…and I think people who discount the authority of an Ordinary in his diocese fool themselves…

 

[Tominellay]

…I would hesitate to discount the authority of an Ordinary in his diocese…

 

[GoldenArrow]

As regards to Golden Arrow, myself and KDW - KDW is an extremely complex series of apparitions and teachings with an equally complex set of formal processes dating back to 1924 with the first Nihil Obstat, a condemnation in 1938 and a new review that commenced with the CDF in 2005. Both Goldern Arrow and I are cordial in our offline discussions regarding our differing viewpoints. I have a confidence that we will both reach agreement and it will probably be through the Church decision if not sooner, through rigorous and friendly debate. I also would like to add that Goldern Arrow has made me aware that the local Archbishop and CDF have requested that KDW not be taught publically so I am now reluctant to debate publically KDW in obiedience.

This is true. Luke and I are buddies.

 

[GoldenArrow]

There’s an interesting quote regarding obedience to a Local Ordinary from St Padre Pio, in this older article written prior to his canonization. I only recommend the page linked: spiritdaily.org/Prayers/gagliardi.htm

An exerpt:

"Padre Agostino Daniele, Pio’s best friend and confessor for more than fifty years, charged that Gagliardi waged “a veritable satanic war” against Padre Pio, soliciting letters with “accusations, exaggerations, and calumnies” to forward to the Vatican – while it was the archbishop himself who was the center of controversy.

So bad was the situation that a number of priests in the archdiocese petitioned Pope Pius XI to end what they saw as the “disorder,” “immorality,” and “clerical degeneracy.”

This was not the case, however, with Padre Pio. **He never retaliated against the archbishop, nor even criticized him. In fact the angriest the famous mystical priest was seen to get was with a supporter – a Pio defender – who had attacked the archbishop. Although shattered, Pio was said to have submitted to the bishop’s attacks with what Father Agostino recalled as “holy resignation.” The same was true of Padre Pio’s spiritual director, Padre Benedetto Nardella, who uttered no complaint against the unfair sanctions.

“God’s will be done,” Pio, a Capuchin monk, is quoted as saying. “The will of the authorities is the will of God.” **"

We would do well to follow St. Padre Pio’s example.

God bless!