Medjugorje - A True Confession

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Catherine Grant:
…And so in charity, we ask that our forums not be used in an uncharitable manner. Any problems with tone or content should be reported via the “Report Post” feature…
Your cooperation in helping promote these aims of faith exposition, hope for fruitful discussion, and charity in implementation are sincerely appreciated.
I did not have a problem with a particular post or poster of this thread. I will report it if I do, though.

My comment about tone concerned my personal reaction to anti-Medjugorje rhetoric in general. I think its a valid point - the lack of charity in some of these detractors really raises questions in my mind - it makes me ask, as “Listener” did - Why are they so very adament that others do not believe them? Its a curious thing. It also turns me and others off from their arguments. The truth of that deserves mention.

Examples of this “tone” are found in the “Unity Publishing” website cited here. For example, this page from “Unity”:
unitypublishing.com/fallen.html

This kind of tone spreads "dis"unity.
 
Eliza and others coments regarding “Tone” of arguements in this thread is a facinating topic in itself and I hope I can relate my personal experience and thoughts clearly.

I have been a believer of the happenings of Medjugoje and visited there back in 1994 & 1995. I returned as an advocate of Medj. I believed that the local Bishop was wrong and I believed that my local priests back in Australia who were not receptive to Medj. were not authodox and responsible for the watering down of the Catholic Faith. My behaviour towards people and priests who were not receptive was definately uncharitble and defamitory.

Looking back, I am also aware that my fellow Medj believer friends had an intollerance towards non receptive Catholic’s labeling them as not being part of the remnant and potentially lost souls. The attack on priests who would not “believe” Medj. was shocking in heinsight. We need to remember too, that this time preceded the end of the 20th Century, a time when much speculation was circulating regarding the fulfillment of the 10 secrets of Medj and the Second Comming of Christ as proclaimed by Fr Gobbi through the Marian Movement of Priests, (MMP). Looking back, there are similarities between the philosophy of many dooms day cults and Medj and MMP.

With the passage of time, now 13 years since my original involment in Medj and with researching offical chruch documentation relating to Medj., specifically, and church general information and rulings as to the processes of determing the supernatural, I have now changed camps proclaiming Medj to be false.

So, am I agressive towards belivers of Medj. as I was when I was a supporter, No.

The question remains as to why people on both sides of the arguement get so emotional about this topic and in general, the topic of various unapproved apparitions?

As I have been in both camps and my stance has been passionate in both, I share my reflections upon my own experience:

As a Medj believer:
  1. The Medj. messages hooked my desire to save souls as I saw Medj as a vehicle for this desire.
  2. Logically from this, opponents of Medj. must be either ignorant or working for the adversary, particulary priests who were non receptive and particularly the Bishop of Mostar as proclaimed through the “Gospa’s” early messages of Medj and through the Medj. media;
  3. Logically from this, I concluded that I was involved in spiritual warfare and I was on the winning side;
  4. These three points fueled my intollerance of the poor people who were trying to tell me that my stance was wrong. I was supported by a large group of supporters in Sydney at the time of about 600 people who used to meet at a Sydney Church each 1 Saturday. This group had no ability to determine or distinguish between approved and non approved apparitions so you either believed in them all or you were labeled as not being “Marian”.
    5. Following from all of this, Psychologically and spiritually, the boundaries of my belief in the Deposit of Faith merged with my belief in Medj, so, in affect, you attack Medj, you attack my Church and my total faith.
As a non believer in Medj, my motivation is fueled by:
  1. As sense of being duped by Medj and it offical supporters;
  2. A sense of being contrite for the way I treated people who did not believe in Medj.
  3. A sense of valuing justice in this area, to prevent people from falling into the same ideological trap that I did while practicing respect for the individual;
  4. A sense of wanting to preserve the Deposit of Faith of which Medj, MMP and others gradually take the faithful off on another path.
I have now been rejected by old friends who are still believers. I have not prolitised my stance, rather I just don’t attend their prayer gatherings and I have not given any theological reasons as I sensed i would not be heard. I have been told by them that my faith and relationship with God is waining. I am now copping what I used to dish out and I have lost some good friends through it. Their attitudes and behaviour, as was mine, is almost cult like.

Where the problem occurs is when the stance on either side merges with one’s ego - ie: you attack my stance then you attack me.

A problem can also occur with the critics of Medj whom out of an act of love for the truth, anger is borne and projected from the issue to a person. As Eliza and others have noted, this is evident in Unity publishing and other comentators. Unfortunately this distracts from the truth that these publications may contain and that is a shame.

Oz
 
I don’t know if a lot of folks are aware of this yet undiscussed fact about the Medjugorje events, but lots of pilgrims are walking away from Medjugorje who then claim to have locutions or visions, usually of an Apocalyptic nature, which they submit to certain yahoo groups for internet publication.

The sites that publish this information have no discretion or limits, nor do they obey the Code of Canon Law in this matter. The Law states, in a nutshell, that any private revelations can be published as long as they contain nothing contrary to the faith, as long as publication is not prohibited, and as long as there is not a negative ruling. Many of these messages contain info contrary to the teachings of the church, breaking Church law.

I’m still a member of certain online messageboards in order to keep track of this movement. What troubles me is that in 2005, after the Tsunami and Katrina, there’s been huge upsurge in new Catholic “visionaries”----and at least 90% of them are Medjugorje spin-offs. (That’s my own term for them). That is, they’re former Medjugorje pilgrims who return home and claim to receive messages from God, usually Apocalyptic in nature.

These Medjugorje spin-offs number somewhere between 50 to 100. Maybe more. The number is growing at an alarming rate.

What really troubles me are what some of these people say! I’m not allowed, per board rules, to get into specifics. Some have claimed to receive messages from God that detract Pope Benedict in the worst possible way! Others claim to have receive messages from Our Lady that espouse conspiracy theories so wild it would make recent statements made by George Clooney appear sane. Some messages contain information that encourages lay people not to trust their priests, bishops, and Pope. Many messages contain wild conspiracy theories involving Masons, Illuminati, governments, Osama Bin Laden, Weather control, mind control, secret refuges, anti-christ and even messages claiming to give God’s opinion on the Iraq war! The danger is that the Medjugorje spinoffs receive EVEN MORE messages than the originals that are even MORE radical in content!

Medjugorje is speading outside the Diocese of Mostar to a point where it’s creating a new form of Gnostic Catholicism, where the “Faithful-Remnant” receive secret knowledge about future events of an Apocalyptic nature—and if you’re not part of the “Faithful-Remnant,” your salvation is in jeopardy. You’re an outsider. You’re considered a lukewarm Catholic who only gives lip service. I’ve even experienced this at my own Parish. There is a schism forming in the church–a new Gnostic Catholicism. I’m very worried.

The roots of this schism lay in Medjugorje. This place seems to be the focus.

This is why I’m so “militantly adamant” about this. I’m trying to protect you from the cliff that lies on the other side of Medjugorje. I am militant because I love you.

In fact, I’m so opposed to these spin-offs that I refuse to provide links to the sites that publish these messages. I don’t want the schism to spread. I also won’t name any specific names for the same reason.

As far as end days goes I believe the Parousia will come someday, but we will not know the day nor the hour.
 
Luke said:
As a non believer in Medj, my motivation is fueled by:
  1. As sense of being duped by Medj and it offical supporters;
  2. A sense of being contrite for the way I treated people who did not believe in Medj.
  3. A sense of valuing justice in this area, to prevent people from falling into the same ideological trap that I did while practicing respect for the individual;
  4. A sense of wanting to preserve the Deposit of Faith of which Medj, MMP and others gradually take the faithful off on another path.
Luke, all that you wrote is almost in a nutshell what happened with me. But, this part in quote, is a dead ringer for what prompted my original post. I had such a feeling of remorse that it overwhelmed me enough to prompt me into going to confession because I realized that the contempt I had developed in my heart for the bishops of Mostar-Duvno was incompatible with Catholic teaching. That spun everything out of control as I recognized it as a fruit - a bad fruit.

My parish priest, very Marian, accepted my confession and agreed that the kind of contempt I had in my heart and words for the bishops, sometimes cloaked in “charity” was indeed wrong. After emailing Bishop Peric a personal apology (he is the successor to the Bishop whose diocese I resided in for almost 3 years - Zanic), I got a very charitable response, with his encouragement to read his speech at Maynooth, Ireland, and the MIchael Davies book and his latest statement. All of these are found at the Davies website - the book, in full.

Bishop Peric was most merciful, giving me further counsel above and beyond what my pastor provided. That counsel was very simple: My behavior and attitude towards the local Ordinary of Mostar-Duvno needs to be counted among the fruits of Medjugorje, but it is a bad fruit.

People are so hung up on miracles, not a single one of which has been authenticated by the Medical Burea of Lourdes (or whatever its proper name is where they do such authentication). In fact, several hundred cases sent to them have all been debunked completely. So, we have an apparition site with not one single, authenticated cure over a 20+ year period. How long did the bishop wait for the miracle “Gospa” promised, that never came after 20 years? And the dancing suns? How many people have damaged their retinas? Fr. Phillip Pavic, who went out of his way to get assigned to Medjugorje and spent many years there, is now on the flip side and speaks of damaged retinas in people. He too feels very duped. Is he now an aggressor against Medjugorje after spending years there and now coming out against authenticity?

People are hung up on conversion stories, and there truly are many. But they look at these to the exclusion of the opposite - priests in significant numbers being removed from their order, or incurring excommunication via** *latæ sententia. ***Its comletely dismissed that the seers have actually advocated a Franciscan Priest who impregnated a Franciscan Nun (documented at the diocese of Mostar-Duvno because it was being claimed by visionaries that “the Bishop was wrong” about the priest, whom the Pope himself had removed from the priesthood). Not one supporter on this board has addressed this issue and, as usual it is simply bi-passed or dismissed as a non-issue. How can this be when visionaries are wrapped up in it? It not only amounted to detraction of an apostolic successor, it involved outright calumny. This are grave sins - far from the virtue “seers” would have as a result of deep graces bestowed upon an authentic visionary. This says nothing of the divorces caused by people placing Medjugorje ahead of charity toward’s their families.

We have “visionaries” like Ivan Dragicevic touring the world and, on demand, “seeing” the BVM. This is unheard of with anything ever authenticated by Holy Mother Church. It is especially disturbing that his own bishop has never given him permission to continue with the “visions” after having told them to cease all publication of “message” and to stop selling promotional items. Disobedience is a fruit.
 
It is the “bad fruit” of the Med. movement that drove me away from it. I didn’t see it at first, but I got to know some people who are addicted to seers of all kinds and the insist, as LukeQ said, that anyone who didn’t beleive in the messages were “not part of the remnant and potentially lost souls.”

What confused me from the beginning was the fact that these followers claimed to have specific, almost secret information that would help “save” a person during the coming “tribulation” etc. I didn’t understand why, if it were true, we weren’t hearing it from the Church herself…
 
And the dancing suns? How many people have damaged their retinas? Fr. Phillip Pavic, who went out of his way to get assigned to Medjugorje and spent many years there, is now on the flip side and speaks of damaged retinas in people.
**
This is another reason why I’m militantly adamant in my opposition to Medjugorje, because I’m an Optometrist.**

In Medjugorje, **people are told to STARE at the sun **to get see the "miraculous dancing of the sun. " People are told they’re seeing miracles.These are not miracles. They can be explained by something called Entoptic Phenomenon, or an event that occurs further back along the visual pathway.

Entoptic phenomena are visual perceptions caused by eye anatomy. Examples include floaters, color changes caused by brunescent cataracts (brunescent cataracts have an amber color), the ability to see your own white and red blood vessels while looking at a blue sky, etc… The bouncing of the sun can be explained by flexing and dilation of the iris muscles.

When one looks at a very bright light the iris will initially constrict , making the pupil very small. As the eye starts to adapt to the new illumination, the iris will flex in and out, called “iris hippus,” or “pupillary play” before finally settling on a slightly larger pupil diameter than the original constriction. Pupillary hippus can explain why the sun bounces when you stare directly into it.

Medjugorje pilgrims are told the after image (the huge dark spot) seen after looking at the “miracle of the sun” is a miracle. It is not. The dark spot is a result of complete depletion of the retinal photopigments, causing the brain to percieve darkness on the area of the retina where the sun used to be. The dark spot may also indicate the future location of a solar retinal burn.

Did you know you can get a Macular solar burn from looking at the moon during a summer’s night? It used to be a common finding in astronomers. They’ve been educated and now take precautions. Just imagine the damage you can do to your eyes by staring directly at the sun at high noon!

The people who’ve had retinal burns as a result of viewing the “miracle” of the sun at Medjugorje should sue the visionaries. That’ll stop their visions.

The pilgrims are told, also, that while staring at the sun it’ll turn dark in the middle, forming a Eucharistic host in the center of the sun. This is no miracle. It’s called the Troxler effect. It’s a dimming of the percieved light with prolonged viewing of bright light due retinal photopigment depletion and perceptual changes in the brain.

We often see Troxler effect while performing visual field tests on patients, especially in the second eye. I have a Humphrey FDT Visual screener, and the company that designed it had to numerically account for Troxer effect in their software package, otherwise the second tested eye will always appear visually weaker than the other. The dark spot seen in the center of the sun, which shifts when you blink or move the eye slightly, IS the Troxler effect, not a Eucharistic host.

Another “miracle” they claim is the red peripheral field seen in addition to the dark after image after viewing the “Miracle of the Sun.” This occurs because the sun is SO BRIGHT that it also depletes retinal pigments surrounding the macula. When you look away the brain perceives this as an overall darkening of the field, peripherally, and a dark spot centrally where the image of the sun hit the retina.

**And yes. Medjugorje greatly interests me because it’s now a Public Health problem in my field of work. **

Solar burns are virtually incurable and MORE visually devastating than Macular degeneration, due to Visual acuity loss AND metamorphopsia (vision distortion).

I say “virtually incurable” because if an epiretinal membrane (scar tissue) occurs instead of a frank burn, the membrane can be peeled of surgically (by hand!) by a retinal surgeon. Only—the procedure is very risky. If the patient moves his eye by as much as a millimeter or two while the surgeon peels it off with special tweezers, all bets on visual recovery are off. Let’s just say retinal surgeons don’t like doing this procedure.

And if you’re lucky enough NOT to get a Solar burn, then at the very least you’re now more likely to get Macular Degeneration when you’re old—and that’s no fun either----especially the Wet type. And if you don’t get Macular degeneration from it, you’ll probably get cataracts a few years earlier.

May God have mercy on the souls of those visionaries. This is a shame.
 
What confused me from the beginning was the fact that these followers claimed to have specific, almost secret information that would help “save” a person during the coming “tribulation” etc. I didn’t understand why, if it were true, we weren’t hearing it from the Church herself…
One nice older lady I know of, from one of those fringe boards I still frequent, had stored up food for the coming tribulation. The “visionaries” tell people to store food.* These Medjugorje spinoffs also claim that a Guardian Angel will come for the Faithful Remnant before the tribulation and will take us to secret refuges, so we won’t have to suffer through the coming Catholic persecution.**

This lady told us she was disappointed that her Guardian Angel didn’t rescue her from Hurricane Katrina, as she had trouble leaving because she didn’t want to abandon her sickly brother. She and her brother later ended up stranded in a hotel somewhere, where he later died. DIED! She tells us she now no longer believes the End of the World is near and she no longer believes these “visionaries.” She also told us she regretted storing food because all of it was lost during the hurricane. She said she wished she’d have donated it to the poor instead of storing it.

I just feel so bad for her, you know?

This one isn’t a direct fruit of Medjugorje, but is a fruit of the Medjugorje spinoffs, and others who may or may not be affiliates…

*, ** Hope I’m not breaking any rules. I needed to include some specifics to show some of the negative fruits.
 
GoldenArrow - you have worried me about the eye damage regarding the sun at Medj. I experienced this and also upon my return home - the black spot and the colurs around the sun and the sun movement. I’m 44. this was when I was 33. Am I at risk to have experience eye damage and can I do anything about it now?

Your story as to storing food - That is so sad. Unfortunately when people don’t listen to the facts and authority, they only seem to learn through a bad personal experience. There was a book written that is circulated among the Medj believers (I’m not naming it here so s not to promote it), that promotes the storage of food and candles for their 2nd coming - David Koresh - here we go again…

Luke
 
I’m 44. this was when I was 33. Am I at risk to have experience eye damage and can I do anything about it now?
Depends on how long you stared at the sun. A few seconds–not a huge deal. Over ten seconds—bad but not that bad. Thirty seconds or more—not good. Over a minute–bad.

Also it depends on if you looked at the sun bare-eyed vs wearing glasses with some UV protection vs sunglasses with UV. Bare-eyed would be worse.

You’re in the clear as far as the Solar Burn if you presently lack a burn. A solar burn would’ve shown up probably within a few months of the viewing.

You are, however, at higher risk for cataract, macular degeneration, and cellophane maculopathy. Cellophane Maculopathy is when the inner retinal membrane turns opaque, usually with age.

You can take preventative steps to preserve your present vision. What I’d do is protect your eyes from UV light while you’re still young. Get UV coating in your glasses. Wear a hat, like a baseball cap when outside in the sun. Stop smoking if you smoke. Smoking is REALLY bad for the eyes, actually. Also it wouldn’t be a bad idea to start a regimen of vitamin supplements, such as Ocuvite with Lutein, or a generic equivalent. You should look for supplements containing antioxidants. One pill a day would be just fine.

I didn’t mean to scare you. I was harsh because I wanted to scare people away from Medjugorje. HA!

Basically—you’re in the clear for the worst of conditions if you are now healthy, but are at higher risk at developing future vision problems aforementioned, as compared to an average person of your age who has never viewed the Medjugorje phenomenon.

Have you had an eye exam recently? An eye exam would determine whether you have the start of cellophane or drusen deposits that accompany macular degeneration. You would probably need a dilated eye exam. If your eyes are presently healthy, that is if your macula and fovea are now undamaged, there’s a good chance you’ll be A-OK. But because of this increased risk, you should have your eyes examined annually.

Also, the average age for developing age-related cataracts in the US is … and this is off the top of my head … around 67. (If anyone has the actual stats, please post them). Pretty much everyone in the U.S. gets cataracts eventually—unless you’re a freak of nature. LOL!!! So don’t worry if someone diagnoses you with cataracts in your sixties. That would be a normal age-related change for that age group.

God Bless!
 
Now, I DO believe in miracles. Let’s contrast the fake “miracle of the sun” of Medjugorje with the real thing, which occurred in Fatima, Portugal in 1917.

Here’s a link and an exerpt:
fatima.org/crusader/crintro/crintropg16.asp

“… In October, I will perform a miracle,” Our Lady had sovereignly declared on July 13. And on October 13, it was at Her efficacious gesture that the marvelous “dance of the sun” began: “Then, opening Her hands, She made them reflect on the sun, and as She rose, the reflection of Her own light continued to be projected on the sun itself.”
Code:
   Thus, the magnificent miracle, it is She Who promised it, Who announced it three months in advance, and at Her gesture the miracle was fulfilled ...
Suddenly, the heavenly body [the Sun] began to tremble, to shake with abrupt movements, and finally to turn on itself at a dizzying speed while throwing out rays of light, all colors of the rainbow: “The sun turned like a fire wheel, taking on all the colors of the rainbow.” (Maria do Carmo) “It appeared like a globe of snow turning on itself.” (Father Lourenço) “The pearl-like disc had a giddy motion. This was not the twinkling of a star in all its brilliance. It turned on itself with impetuous speed.” (Dr. Almeida Garrett) “At a certain moment, the sun stopped and then began again to dance, to spin; it stopped again, and began again to dance.” (Ti Marto) It is indeed therefore a triple “dance of the sun” which thousands of witnesses affirm, having contemplated it for several minutes.
Code:
   "The sun took on all the colors of the rainbow. Everything assumed those same colors: our faces, our clothes, the earth itself." (Maria do Carmo) "A light, whose colors changed from one moment to the next, was reflected on the people and on things", notes Dr. Pereira Gens.

   "We suddenly heard a clamor, relates Almeida Garrett, like a cry of anguish of that entire crowd. The sun, in fact, keeping its rapid movement of rotation, seemed to free itself from the firmament and blood-red, to plunge towards the earth, threatening to crush us with its fiery mass. Those were some terrifying seconds." "I saw the sun turn and it seemed to descend. It was like a bicycle wheel." (John Carreira) "The sun began to dance and, at a certain moment, it appeared to detach itself from the firmament and to rush forward on us, like a fire wheel." (Alfredo da Silva Santos) "I saw it perfectly descending as if it came to crash on the earth. It seemed to detach itself from the sky and rush toward us. It maintained itself at a short distance above our heads; but that sort of attack was of very short duration ... It seemed very near the people and it continued to turn in the opposite direction." (Maria do Carmo) "From those thousands of mouths, relates the engineer Mario Godinho, I heard shouts of joy and love to the Most Holy Virgin. And then I believed. I had the certainty of not having been the victim of a suggestion. I had seen the sun as I would never see it again."

Out of 50 to 70,000 eye witnesses, not one single person walked away with eye damage.
 
Also, Luke, I should make it clear: solar burns are thermal burns, so wearing glasses during the phenomenon might not make a huge difference either way. The biggest factor as to whether you’ll have damage or not is the amount of time you viewed the sun.
 
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GoldenArrow:
Also, Luke, I should make it clear: solar burns are thermal burns, so wearing glasses during the phenomenon might not make a huge difference either way. The biggest factor as to whether you’ll have damage or not is the amount of time you viewed the sun.
GoldenArrow - thanks so much for your (name removed by moderator)ut regarding the issue surrounding the “dancing sun”. I have long heard of cases of people with damaged eyes and your detailed explanation was very helpful.

I only wish there were a way to publish a number to make visible how many are walking away with temporary or permanent damage from doing this act.
 
Bad fruit, as I posted earlier My friends husband, devout Catholic was driven away from the Catholic faith by stories from non-catholics about Medj. Just another way to lead Catholics away from their faith. Belief and Non-belief. I guess my confusion over this whole debate is this… What consequences do we face in not believing in Medj. as opposed to what are the consequences if we do believe, and it isn’t true. there are times when we are called to obey even if we don’t agree, I believe this is one such instance. and just to state my own opinion on something…I think this thread has been nothing but informative, non militant, non insulting to our catholic belief systems and I wish to thank Diane again for bring this to light!!
 
MaryJ–the issue you brought up re: consequences of belief vs. non-belief in apparitions is a crucial one, IMO. The most the Church will officially say about an apparition is that it is “worthy of beleif”. But it is never required belief and indeed, all public revelation eneded with the death of the apostles.

Those who follow each new “apparition” to the extreme do so with the assumption that if you don’t do everything that is in these “messages” you will be doomed. It is a perspective I truly don’t understand. We all will die one day. Why should we be so afraid of something awful happening and, who are we, really, to think that we have some “magic” thing that will manipulate God into saving us when He already died on the cross?

The Church and the Magesterium already has told us what is necessary for salvation, and it doesn’t include hoarding food!
 
Maryj - You write about the consequences of belief vs non belief in Medj.

Firstly, the Church binds us to believe in Public Revelation. According to Church teaching, Public Revelation finished with the death of the last Apostle. (You may check the Catholic Cathicism). So, we are only bound by the Church’s offical teaching of public revelation - the Magisterium.

What that means as an example is that St Dominic’s visitations of Our Lady with the Rossary does not qualify as Public Revelation. It is Private Revelation. We don’t have to believe in it. What the Church does say is that Private Revelation is sometimes given to us by God as helps for our Faith.

Now the “messages” of Medj. are along way from the reqirements of belief as at best they are unapproved private revelation. It is actually disobiedience to state publically that you belief and follow and promote an unapproved private revelation.

God will never permit a bona fide private revelation to contradict Church Teaching or slander or stir up disobiedience towards a Bishop.

Secondly, Faith needs to be rooted in reason as stated in JP2’s Encyclical. Are the events of Medj. reasonable? Are the claims reasonable? There is a thread on this matter of about 6 months ago which discusses the issue of Faith and Reason. it is not reasonable to think, What if I’m wrong about Medj - what are the consequences? BECAUSE the facts of Medj. conflict with the Church and that is not reasonable. I won’t spell out what facts are not reasonable as they have been exhausted in this thread already.

“What if its right” - response to Medj. may be a response out of fear and not reason. Unreasonable fear may come from ol’e hairy legs.

Luke
 
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LukeQ:
Maryj - You write about the consequences of belief vs non belief in Medj.

Firstly, the Church binds us to believe in Public Revelation. According to Church teaching, Public Revelation finished with the death of the last Apostle. (You may check the Catholic Cathicism). So, we are only bound by the Church’s offical teaching of public revelation - the Magisterium.

What that means as an example is that St Dominic’s visitations of Our Lady with the Rossary does not qualify as Public Revelation. It is Private Revelation. We don’t have to believe in it. What the Church does say is that Private Revelation is sometimes given to us by God as helps for our Faith.

Now the “messages” of Medj. are along way from the reqirements of belief as at best they are unapproved private revelation. It is actually disobiedience to state publically that you belief and follow and promote an unapproved private revelation.

God will never permit a bona fide private revelation to contradict Church Teaching or slander or stir up disobiedience towards a Bishop.

Secondly, Faith needs to be rooted in reason as stated in JP2’s Encyclical. Are the events of Medj. reasonable? Are the claims reasonable? There is a thread on this matter of about 6 months ago which discusses the issue of Faith and Reason. it is not reasonable to think, What if I’m wrong about Medj - what are the consequences? BECAUSE the facts of Medj. conflict with the Church and that is not reasonable. I won’t spell out what facts are not reasonable as they have been exhausted in this thread already.

“What if its right” - response to Medj. may be a response out of fear and not reason. Unreasonable fear may come from ol’e hairy legs.

Luke
Hi Luke, I obviously stated something confusing. I’m not pondering the consequences between belief and non-belief. I’m simply stating that in my opinion, belief in these messages and non- belief is leading Catholics away from the church. Be it in disobedience to the magisterium, or the local ordinary, or twisted facts that lead many catholics to believe that these “apparitions” are approved by the church,(aren’t we told in Revelation that false prophets will try to subvert the church from within??) which in turn causes them to doubt the church and leave. I know of cases that apply to both instances. I was once a believer in Medj, and in that belief I began to study to prove the nay-sayers wrong. What did I gain by this??. A deeper love of my faith, a deeper relationship with our Lord, a devotion to our Blessed Virgin and the knowledge that Medj. is not approved by the holy see, and thus is an unapproved private revelation. Thus the “sometimes we need to obey, whether we agree or not”.I trust I’ve made myself clearer this time.
 
I am not versed in photographic manipulation techniques, but something about Medjugorje has always interested me, namely, stories of pilgrims or priests taking pictures of some natural scene, developing them, and finding images such as these:

jesusphotos.altervista.org/angelshopcom.jpg

Now, whoever that is, it certainly looks like what one might imagine the Immaculate Mother to look like.
 
Mike O:
I am not versed in photographic manipulation techniques, but something about Medjugorje has always interested me, namely, stories of pilgrims or priests taking pictures of some natural scene, developing them, and finding images such as these:

jesusphotos.altervista.org/angelshopcom.jpg

Now, whoever that is, it certainly looks like what one might imagine the Immaculate Mother to look like.
Heh Mikeo, sure that’s the correct link, nothing showed for me??
 
Mary - thanks for the clarification and sorry i did not get it the first time round. I totally agree with you. Also, Some radical prodestant funamentalists use Medj as eveidence against the Catholic Church.

Mike - short of starting and indepth analysis of various photo phenomina, the problem with this picture is it represents Mary as a ghost like figure being semi transparent. Our Lady was assumed Body and Soul inot Heaven so if she did appear, it would be very much as a physical human being.

Luke
 
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