Medjugorje - A True Confession

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GoldenArrow:
Maryj:

That is a very interesting Medjugorje conversion story. So … what you’re saying is that you don’t believe in Medjugorje but attribute a conversion to it because of anti-Catholic materials generated because of it? You were led to investigate the true teaching of the Church in order to refute the video you were shown? Learning the true teachings of the Church–in this seach for truth–led you to a deeper conversion of heart? WOW! I approve.

God bless you!
I will also add, that this is an example of how the BVM is using something that is negative (what I believe to be unauthentic apparitions), to produce a positive.

There are many conversion stories, but along with all of those conversion stories there are many stories of people who have gone astray as a result of Medjugorje. Marriages that have been broken up, people who have gone on the offensive against the local hierarchy, and who have spread calumny and detraction against church officials whose job it is, through apostolic succession, to discern the authenticity of the apparitions.
 
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Lux_et_veritas:
I an American of Croatian descent. I was …
That’s how I got there. The intent was that I would learn the language, then likely get reassigned back in the US after I was professed. I was there 2.5 years before illness brought me home and out of the convent. I left while in the novitiate.
Thank you for the explanation. 🙂 It helps a bunch and makes things clearer.

I had some suspiscions about the Ivan tour coming to our area. Glad these postings were here.
 
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OutinChgoburbs:
Thank you for the explanation. 🙂 It helps a bunch and makes things clearer.

I had some suspiscions about the Ivan tour coming to our area. Glad these postings were here.
This is a terrible thing to say, but I can’t help but imagine Ivan showing up on the Las Vegas strip, preceded by Bobby Vinton as he sings “Half-way to Paradise”.

That is what really disturbs me is this “Gospa on demand” tour that he and other “seers” are doing. This is one of the biggest flags, aside from disobedience. To think that a “seer” could show up any time, any place, and see the BVM, on demand is so outrageous I find it mind-boggling anyone would go.

What indignities Our Lady must endure as this debacle continues? This is one of many reasons why I believe Pope Benedict will say or do something sooner than later.

God help the “seers” and their helpers and may He have mercy on their souls. I pray that a conversion of heart happens with one or more of them.
 
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Lux_et_veritas:
This is a terrible thing to say, but I can’t help but imagine Ivan showing up on the Las Vegas strip, preceded by Bobby Vinton as he sings “Half-way to Paradise”…
Not terrible. Too close to the truth maybe. But not terrible.
😉 :rotfl: 😉

I don’t think “the Polish Prince” would do it, BTW.

bobbyvinton.com/archive/news/pope.htm
 
Soon the english publisher Donal Foley will release a brandnew book " Understanding Medjugorje " with new insights and new photos showing the many manipulations from the very beginning. See www.theotokos.org.uk
There is also a similar online book available for free download written by Michael Davies called, Medjugorje after Twenty-one Years: A definitive history here:

mdaviesonmedj.com/

Here’s a synopsis of the book from the same link:
Synopsis of the book “Medjugorje after Twenty-One Years - The Definitive History” by Michael Davies

"This website contains the sixth edition of his book which gives the most definitive English-language account available of the events which have been taking place since 1981 at Medjugorje in Herzegovina. Michael’s wife Marija, who is Croatian, and his son Adrian, who is bi-lingual, have given him considerable help by translating material from the original Croatian, and the two bishops of the Diocese of Mostar-Duvno during the past twenty-years have made all the necessary official documentation available to him. The present bishop, Dr. Ratko Peric, wrote with regard to the fourth edition of the book:
Code:
"You write with Catholic conviction and Christian frankness ...it is quite clear that you are driven by a desire for the truth in your investigations into the phenomenon of Medjugorje... Three episcopal commissions as well the entire Bishops' Conference have already been convinced that on the basis of the investigations that have been carried out to date it is impossible to confirm that there have been supernatural manifestations and messages in Medjugorje, but various superstitions are spreading. In your book you base yourself upon the official documents and teaching of the Church. There are far too many inaccurate versions of events spread throughout the world, above all by the efforts and the agency of those in the service of the so-called apparitions at Medjugorje.""
God Bless!
 
I just want to thank each and every one of you who have contributed to this thread.

I don’t have anything to add to this discussion; but I’d like to say that, as a consequence of reading this thread and related links, I now do not believe in Medjugorje.

I’m sure I’m not the only one persuaded by your testimony.

Thanks, again, to everyone.
 
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scriabin:
I don’t have anything to add to this discussion; but I’d like to say that, as a consequence of reading this thread and related links, I now do not believe in Medjugorje.

I’m sure I’m not the only one persuaded by your testimony.
I’m not pursuaded.

Its a very strong argument on this thread agaist Medjugorje. And it sounds very authoratative. But in tone, it reminds me of the very strong, Biblical, intellectually sound anti-Catholic arguments. I was once persuaded by those, too - to the point where it seemed pointless to ever consider Catholicsm. I was done with that topic! Then, by God’s grace, I stumbled upon a book that made me want to examine what the Catholics have to say about Catholicism.

I see that the Unity website has listed “approved” websites for learning about Medjugorje. Translation - websites that stand on the negative side of Medjugorje. In case Unity’s exhaustive negativeism on the topic is not enough for you.

I don’t like the tone of the author of the Unity site in many instances. Its a real turn-off to me.

This thread has persuaded me to learn what Medjugorje has to say about Medjugorje - and then weigh both sides. I am reading a book by Father Michael Scanlon (of Stubenville University) on Medjugorje. It persuades for the postive side, as does a chapter on Medjugorje in a book by Bob and Penny Lord of EWTN.

Later it would be nice to hear what intelligent supporters have to say to the allegatuions of the detractors. A lot of the detractions sound pretty slanderous to me! The “clever Fransicicans”, i.e. What a serious judgement. And thats only a drop in the bucket.

In this thread it says Sr. Lucia said Mary is not at Medjugorje and don’t go there. Yet elsewhere on the net it says Sr. Lucia supports it. So I don’t know. Which is well documented? When it came to this, I couldn’t tell.

Also there is the acusation that some of the seers live in “mansions”. I couldn’t find any images of these alleged “mansions” on a Goodle image search. Or on the Unity site. Perhaps in real life they are not as mansion-like as they are alleged to be. Also perhaps they need space for privacy. I know I will not judge them just on an unsubstantiated comment.

So all I know is I still don’t know. And I am motivated to hear the other side.
 
Eliza10, As I see it, if the Holy Father has not sanctioned any of the messages from Medjugorie,(it has been 21 years) nor has the local ordinary, it is best to let it be. We have been asked by our most Blessed Virgin, to pray for the conversion of sinners, and that is what I shall do. May your journey to the truth be short.
 
And, why did it become necessary to talk about the Franciscans in the first place? Who invited the “seers” into the rectory to have their “visions” after their Bishop forbid them to have these “visions” in the Church? Who was responsible for leading children to follow a misguided loophole that the Bishop’s letter didn’t specify not to have them in the rectory? I suppose they could have continued on the Church roof too, because that technically is not “in” the Church. The Franciscans led these children into disobedience of the local Ordinary and it continues by a group of them today. When a “seer” speaks about a particular Franciscan in her diary, then the Church has a right to protect itself, and the people, against an obvious problem.

Here is one of many forms of detraction. From page 31, of the 6th edition of the book, Medjugorje - After Twenty One Years by Michael Davies (click the book link at the website):

What credibility can be given to those who claim that the Mother of God told them repeatedly that an immoral priest, expelled from his order on the instructions of the Holy Father himself, is innocent, and that the bishop, who had taken the only course open to him, was the guilty party! And how does a supposedly reputable theologian, such as Father René Laurentin, who has made a great deal of money from books on Medjugorje, react when confronted with such facts? Monsignor Zanic gave us the answer. Laurentin begged him not to publish details of the incident. Monsignor Zanic stated that this has been Laurentin’s consistent position—to hide the truth and defend falsehood. Despite the fact that the truth about Father Ivica Vego can no longer be denied, his prayer book is still sold in Medjugorje and beyond in hundreds of thousands of copies! Propagandists for Medjugorje still insist that Ivica Vego is the innocent party and the bishop, the guilty one. Their “proof” is that Our Lady is supposed to have told Vicka that this was the case, and, where they are concerned, any statement by Vicka is a self-evident truth. In a pro-Medjugorje booklet published in 1991, Our Lady is alleged to have spoken as follows to Vicka on 3 January 1982:

Ivica is not guilty. Have him keep the faith even if he is expelled. I do not cease to repeat, “peace, peace, peace,” and in the meantime agitation increases. He is not guilty (Our Lady repeated this three times). The bishop does not keep order. That is why he is responsible. The justice which you have not seen will come back.29
Code:
     [29](http://#_ftnref1)         *Bishop Zanic—What Went Wrong?* (Saint James Publishing, P.O. Box 380244, Birmingham, Alabama), p. 5.
Now, for a “seer” to place such an entry into her diary, such a statement, attributed to Our Lady, is absolutely outrageous. Not only is this detraction, it is outright calumny. This is not hearsay, it is documented fact coming from the diary of a “seer”. I can provide more such examples.

Once again, we cannot look at the good fruits alone, or judge for ourselves that this is authentic. Judgment is reserved to the Church and it is the job of the local Ordinary to do that discernment. Bishops Zanic and Peric have repeatedly made their positions known and this was backed by the Yugoslav Bishops commission, while it was still in effect.

Medjugorje enjoys no support among those whom the Church gives jurisdiction for discernment of apparitions - the local Ordinary. The public silence of the Pope also says alot. Supporters will, however, talk about how the Pope (past and present) have privately supported Medjugorje. This has warning flags all over it when supposedly a Pope supports something, but he doesn’t make it known publicly. He silence says more.
 
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Eliza10:
I don’t like the tone of the author of the Unity site in many instances. Its a real turn-off to me.
I agree with you in not liking the tone of Unity,but I did read through it several times and, I’m not really a fan of Rick, but you will find partial truth in most things.

In short Eliza10 I didn’t even need to post up their stuff because having read numerous lives of the saints in a word all I need to know is OBEDIENCE.

If obedience is lacking then for me the rest isn’t worth following, wasn’t it Saint Catherine of Sienna that was asked to plant a dead stick in the ground and water it everyday.
And she did and it bore fruit and is a massive grapevine, it was a test of obedience to a redicilous request, but God rewarded her obedience, and probably mortified the one requesting it.

We have all we need in the Church anyway and aren’t held under the penalty of sin to believe in these things, some of them are only sign posts leading back onto the right path.

Mass, Rosary,Chaplet, Eucharistic Adoration is all I really need and running after apparations maybe means for some an emptiness in their faith that needs to be filled with signs and wonders, the poor mans shrine is enough for me, the Holy Tabernacle, and we don’t have to spend a fortune to get to it.

God Bless. :bible1:
 
Hello, Diane! Even though I have been away from the Forum for a while, and even though we are on opposite sides regarding Medj., I was treated very charitably by you in previous discussions. So, yes, we strongly value your opinions and statements, as honest and well constructed. I must, however, take polite issue with the following:
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Lux_et_veritas:


Once again, we cannot look at the good fruits alone, or judge for ourselves that this is authentic. Judgment is reserved to the Church and it is the job of the local Ordinary to do that discernment…
Prior to 1978 your statement would be entirely accurate, Diane. But, after the **CDF’s 1978 Document on Apparition Discernment, **policies were put into place which allowed for authorities other than the local Bishop to assume such responsibilities.

True, Section III (1) mentions, “The foremost authority to inquire and to intervene belongs to the local Ordinary.”

But then Section IV (1.b) says “It belongs to the Sacred Congregation to interene of its own accord in serious cases, in particular when the event affects a broad portion of the Church; but the Ordinary will always be consulted… if the situation requires it.”

The timing is really interesting. It looks like the CDF had issued a policy, virtually “taylor made” for the Medjugorje event itself, three years before Medj. even began!

Since the CDF has made official statements regarding the Medjugorje events (1996 is the last one I know of, you may know others), it would appear that the CDF is in the “official” driver’s seat regarding Medjugorje, not the local Ordinaries, and not the previous Yugoslavian Bishops’ Commission.
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Lux_et_veritas:
Medjugorje enjoys no support among those whom the Church gives jurisdiction for discernment of apparitions - the local Ordinary.
We believe the local Ordinary no longer has jurisdiction for discernment of Medjugorje, such jurisdiction having been transferred to the CDF. So whether Medj has the support of the local Bishop is not an issue.
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Lux_et_veritas:
The public silence of the Pope also says alot. Supporters will, however, talk about how the Pope (past and present) have privately supported Medjugorje. This has warning flags all over it when supposedly a Pope supports something, but he doesn’t make it known publicly. He silence says more.
Diane, what would you have a Pope do, when the CDF is currently responsible for a discernment? There is no way a Pope could take a side, without drastically affecting a decision by the CDF. If he insisted on a particular outcome, he could just make the ruling all by himself, according to above document Section III, (3).

I think we should all agree (both sides) that the Pope’s private position on such a matter is good table talk, but has no bearing on the Church’s official position (unless the Pope takes the ball and runs with it).

But further, it seems the anti-Medj. crowd is somewhat bothered by “alleged private approvals” by JPII in the past. So much so, that an attempt is often made to discredit them. True, a number of those “private papal approvals” might be exaggerated or fabricated, but not all. Case in point: In 1988 (or 89 maybe) our own Archbishop was being invited by some of his flock to accompany them to Medj. He ended up going, but it was after a positive conversation with His Holiness JPII. Is this common knowledge? No, but it’s true none the less. Just like on the “anti-Medj” side, there is negative news which doesn’t make table talk either. I think that, even among the experts who have lived there many years, seen Medj. from the beginning, seen what appears to be good, seen what appears to be evil, and have strongly formed opinions, it would be safe to say that no one has access to all the information which exists about this event.

Sorry this was so long a response, but I too believe in fairness. And in fairness, I think we should agree that:
  1. the CDF now has final authority regarding Medjugorje discernment, not the local Ordinary, and
  2. No final judgment has been rendered by them, regarding discernment.
But, hey, I’m ready to see the error of the above statements.
I’ve been wrong many times, and the Good Lord let me live through it!

God Bless Us All !
 
In the mid eighties Our Lady called me back to the Catholic Church (not that I ever thought I left it, but my sinful lifestyle showed where my heart was) I went to Medjugorje and found a very special, peaceful place and lots of wonderful people. The message to pray, fast, read Sacred Scripture and go to Mass as often as possible is important to us Catholics no matter where that message comes from. If the Church declares it a hoax tomorrow, it will not change anything for me because my eyes are fixed on Jesus and the authority of the Catholic Church. I do not need to cover the globe searching for apparitions. If they are true, they only say the same thing - PRAY - FAST - CHANGE YOUR HEARTS TO JESUS. I have watched several marriages fall apart because one of the spouses is constantly traveling to the next so-called apparition to hear “new” messages. We have everything we need for our salvation in the Holy Mass.
Unfortunately, listening to the nasty, bitterness spread on the internet on both sides of the Medjugorje issue is must make Our Lady cry.
 
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pfoos:
In the mid eighties Our Lady called me back to the Catholic Church (not that I ever thought I left it, but my sinful lifestyle showed where my heart was) I went to Medjugorje and found a very special, peaceful place and lots of wonderful people. The message to pray, fast, read Sacred Scripture and go to Mass as often as possible is important to us Catholics no matter where that message comes from. If the Church declares it a hoax tomorrow, it will not change anything for me because my eyes are fixed on Jesus and the authority of the Catholic Church. I do not need to cover the globe searching for apparitions. If they are true, they only say the same thing - PRAY - FAST - CHANGE YOUR HEARTS TO JESUS. I have watched several marriages fall apart because one of the spouses is constantly traveling to the next so-called apparition to hear “new” messages. We have everything we need for our salvation in the Holy Mass.
Unfortunately, listening to the nasty, bitterness spread on the internet on both sides of the Medjugorje issue is must make Our Lady cry.
As a person who has been to Medjugorje, I totally agree with this poster. The people who are against Medjugorje are so adamant that no one should believe in the apparations. My question is, why??? I really don’t care whether you believe in the messages or not. Why are you so afraid that someone else might believe in them? Just curious. As for the person who wanted to go see Ivan, I saw him once in the USA. It was very low key. We sang “The Battle Hymn of the Republic” at the end. There was a box to put change in in case you took a holy card. No one even asked me for a contribution. Hardly an attitude of someone who’s just in it for the money.
 
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Listener:
As a person who has been to Medjugorje, I totally agree with this poster. The people who are against Medjugorje are so adamant that no one should believe in the apparations. My question is, why??? I really don’t care whether you believe in the messages or not. Why are you so afraid that someone else might believe in them? Just curious. As for the person who wanted to go see Ivan, I saw him once in the USA. It was very low key. We sang “The Battle Hymn of the Republic” at the end. There was a box to put change in in case you took a holy card. No one even asked me for a contribution. Hardly an attitude of someone who’s just in it for the money.
I agree. The visionaries have always been respectful and prayerful when I have seen them. I have friends who live in Medjugorje. Good people. Prayerful people. Pilgrimages are very important for an individual’s spiritual growth but one should leave it to the Lord where HE calls them to go. Obedience to the Magisterium of the Church is most important for discernment on any issue. The talks I received when I was there from the priests were Holy and inspiring. But I do not need any apparition site for my salvation. Pilgrims were flocking to Lourdes and Fatima and Guadalupe long before the Church approved them. If the place is from Satan, it will die out on its own. Satan can’t hold anyones attention for long.
 
HI Kurt,

Welcome back. I have not been on much myself due to other obligations.

I have this to say, with regards to the CDF, released in 1998 by that Dicastery. Follow the link for the entire letter. But, I want to draw attention to whose court the CDF throws it back to: The former Yugoslav Bishops commission, which overwhelmingly voted against anything supernatural. What was it - 2 bishops/cardinals out of 34 who voted favorably in that commission? You don’t count the two, but the remaining 32 which, like any vote, is the only one that counts. What did they say in that commission? Here it is repeated by Archbishop Bertone in 1998.
May 1998: CDF letter to Bp. Aubry

26 May 1998

Excellency,

By letter of 1 January 1998, you submitted to this Dicastery various questions concerning the position of the Holy See and of the Bishop of Mostar on the subject of the alleged “apparitions” of Medjugorje, private pilgrimages, and the pastoral care of the faithful who go to that place.

On that account - whereas I consider it impossible to respond to all of the questions put by your Excellency - I am anxious above all to make clear that it is not the practice of the Holy See to assume, in the first instance, a position of its own regarding supposed supernatural phenomena. **This Dicastery, therefore, in what concerns the credibility of the “apparitions” in question, limits itself simply to what has already been established by the Bishops of the former Yugoslavia in the Zadar Declaration of 10 April 1991: **"… On the basis of the investigations conducted to this point, it is not possible to affirm that it is a case of apparitions or of supernatural revelations". After the division of Yugoslavia into various independent nations, it would now pertain to the members of the Episcopal Conference of Bosnia-Herzegovina to possibly take the case again under examination and, in that case, to issue new declarations.

Who makes up the Episcopal Conference of Bosnia-Herzegovina today? How have they stood in the past on voting?

The French Bishops commission, in 2000 spoke further on this 1998 letter to Bishp Aubry and said the following:

— On 26th May 1998, Msgr. Bertone replies, this time to Bishop Aubry, Bishop of Saint-Denis-de-La-Reunion. After having recalled the Zadar Declaration, he adds: “I point out first of all that it is not the habit of the Holy See to assume, in the first instance, its own position vis-à-vis supposed supernatural phenomena.”

Addressing the question of pilgrimages, the Secretary of the Congregation points out:

“Finally, concerning pilgrimages to Medjugorje which take place in a private manner, this Congregation holds that they are permitted on condition that they are not considered as an authentication of events in course which still necessitate an examination by the Church.”

Let us recognize that it is not easy to apply faithfully this recommendation. How, in fact, to organize a private pilgrimage without it being motivated by the conviction that the events of Medjugorje are of a supernatural origin? Since this conviction is at the origin of the pilgrimage, does not this latter not become de facto “an authentication of events in course which still necessitate an examination by the Church”?

It is just this difficulty which Cardinal Kuharic and Bishop Zanic foresaw in their joint declaration of 9th January 1987.

I would like to address more, but cannot at this time as I will be late for work.
 
Diane - Thanks for the post… and it was Archbishop Bertone’s 1998 letter I had in mind, not a 1996 date. Not a lot to argue about for us here, except interpretations:
  1. Maybe not you, Diane, but some other anti-Medj. folks feel the issue is already settled in the negative. If they feel that way, they disagree with Holy Mother Church:
    “Finally, concerning pilgrimages to Medjugorje which take place in a private manner, this Congregation holds that they are permitted on condition that they are not considered as an authentication of events in course which still necessitate an examination by the Church.” - Secretary for the Congregation, 1998.
The CDF knew full well the negative positions of the Bishops involved. Yet the CDF insists that the events still warrant an examination by the Church. A good question is “Why?” I don’t know, I just figure the Holy See knows more than I do.
  1. Regarding a possible new study commission, it might happen your suggested way, with Bishops from Bosnia-Herzegovina. But it might not. Since the 1978 CDF Position Letter on Apparitions
    the Holy See has indicated it possesses the option to become directly involved in such cases which are “more than regional” in their effect. True, that has not been the practice in the past, but it is now an official option and possibility with Medj.
  2. And, regarding private pilgrimages again:
…the Secretary of the Congregation points out:
“Finally, concerning pilgrimages to Medjugorje which take place in a private manner, this Congregation holds that they are permitted on condition that they are not considered as an authentication of events in course…”

I think it was first tominellay who took the really hard line on this interpretation, and applied it to “people”. But Diane, this is referring to pilgrimages, not individual people. It is very easy to see why Church sponsored pilgrimages are not allowed, but private ones are. A Church sponsored pilgrimage would imply an official Church position which does not yet exist. Private pilgrimages, then, must be presented in a way that acknowledges Medjugorje as an event still under investigation by the Church (a true statement). (And yes, some private pilgrimage groups have gotten into legal trouble by failing to make that distinction.)

(And from a personal viewpoint):
Individually, hardly anyone I know makes a first pilgrimage because they are a “firm believer” in the apparitions. Usually it’s just a spiritual curiosity, they’ve met people, or they’ve read something. So they could qualify as “legitimate” even under tominellay’s strict interpretation. And for those of us who continue to go back, (at least with me) it’s still not because of a “firm belief” in the apparitions. It’s because we love the holy feeling of the place, and we love hanging around St. James, just to name a few.
(but we could name many more!)
God Bless Us All!
 
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Listener:
As a person who has been to Medjugorje, I totally agree with this poster. The people who are against Medjugorje are so adamant that no one should believe in the apparations. My question is, why??? I really don’t care whether you believe in the messages or not. Why are you so afraid that someone else might believe in them? Just curious. .
These are my sentiments too. There is an almost militant tone at times that I find alarming in so much of the anti-Medjugorje rhetoric. It reminds me of the insistent focus one gets when one just wants to be right for the sake of being the one who is right, while others are wrong.

That is my personal reaction to the tone I perceive.
 
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This is addressed to the thread and no-one in particular, I’m not bitterely opposed to Medjugorje, I bought the Medjugorje Hearld for years.

It was in reading about the early years of the said Apparations and the opposition to the local Bishop that made me stop buying it.
My old school friend and his wife invited me 2005 to goto the place, but I explained why for me I didn’t want to go.
We had a discussion about it, not an argument and we left it like that, and for them if they want to travel to those places, so be it.

And I never get into a heated discussion about it, I’ve stated my opposotion, OBEDIENCE I’ve used that word once or twice, 😉 so enjoy the rest of the thread, I’m outta this thread, no use rattlling off the same old thing.
Medjugorje has no bearing on my faith, Mass, Sacraments,Rosary, Eucharist Adoration were around long before it raised it’s head, and those things suffice, if we hadn’t those things would Medjugorje suffice ? I don’t think so.
 
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Eireann:
… Medjugorje has no bearing on my faith, Mass, Sacraments,Rosary, Eucharist Adoration were around long before it raised it’s head, and those things suffice, if we hadn’t those things would Medjugorje suffice ? I don’t think so.
We agree with you here, Eireann.

Medj. without Mass? Hard to imagine…

Medj. without sacramental confessions? It would be a tragedy…

Medj. without the Rosary? Now THAT is virtually impossible…

Medj. without its powerful Eucharistic Adoration? No way…

Medj. without the apparitions? Honestly, I think if the Church could find a way to keep the overflowing sacramental life now present at St. James, and let the apparitions go unaddressed, they would do it… (Actually that’s the net effect of the current position)

You don’t have to be “in love with apparitions” to fall in love with Medj.
God Bless Us All!
 
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