Medjugorje - A True Confession

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Mark,

You hit the nail on the head!

The behavior you describe is the exact same thing I’ve observed, too, not only online, but in real life.
 
Season Greetings and God Bless Everyone (*)

Quotes from Pope John Paul II on Medjugorie … Not everything is in full due to the charater limit.

The Archbishiop Kwangju said to the Pope: "In Korea, in the town of Nadju, Our Lady cries… " The Pope answered “THERE ARE BISHOPS, LIKE IN YUGOSLAVIA FOR EXAMPLE WHO ARE AGAINST THIS…, BUT IT’S IMPORTANT TO LOOK AT THE GREAT NUMBER OF CONVERSIONS… ALL THIS IS UNDERLINED IN THE GOSPEL, ALL THESE FACTS HAVE TO BE SERIOUSLY INVESTIGATED.” (L Homme Nouveau, 3 February 1991.)

Mons. Maurillo Kreiger, former bishop of Florianopolis (Brazil), visited Medjugorie four times. His first visit was in 1986. He writes as follows: "In 1988, I was with eight other bishops and thirty three priests on spiritual retreat in the Vatican. The Holy Father knew that many of us were going to Medjugorie afterwards. After a private mass with the Pope, before leaving Rome, he said, without having been asked anything, “PRAY FOR ME IN MEDJUGORJE”. On another occasion, I told the Pope “I am going to Medjugorje for the fourth time”. He concentrated his thoughts and said, “MEDJUGORJE, MEDJUGORJE, IT’S THE SPIRITUAL HEART OF THE WORLD”. On the same day I spoke with other Brazilian bishops and the Pope at lunch time and I asked him: “Your holiness, can I tell the visionaries that you send your blessing?” He answered: “YES YES” and embraced me.

Italian priest Fr Gianni Sgreva - The Holy Father listened to me, drew close to me and right in my ear said to me, reminding me not to forget: “DON’T YOU BE CONCERNED ABOUT MEDJUGORJE, BECAUSE I’M THINKING ABOUT MEDJUGORJE AND I PRAY FOR ITS SUCCESS EVERYDAY. YOU BE CONCERNED WITH THE VOCATIONS AND PRAY FOR ME EVERY DAY”

Aug 1, 1989 address by the Pope to a group of Italian physicians dedicated to defending unborn life and to making scintific and medical studies on the apparition, as reported by Bishop Paul Hnilica, SJ, Auxiliary Bishop of Rome: “TODAY’S WORLD HAS LOST ITS SENSE OF THE SUPERNATURAL, BUT MANY ARE SEARCHING FOR IT - AND FIND IT IN MEDJUGORJE, THROUGH PRAYER, PENANCE AND FASTING.”

June 1986 response to a group of twelve Italian bishops seeking pastoral advice on people making pilgrimages to Medjugorje. “LET THE PEOPLE GO TO MEDJUGORJE IF THEY CONVERT, PRAY, CONFESS, DO PENANCE AND FAST.”

The Pope said to Fr Jozo Zovko on the 20th July 1992: “BUSY YOURSELF WITH MEDJUGORJE, LOOK AFTER MEDJUGORJE, DON’T TIRE. PERSERVE, BE STRONG, I AM WITH YOU. WATCH OVER, FOLLOW MEDJUGORJE.”

In a private conversation with visionary Mirjana Soldo the Pope said: “IF I WERE NOT POPE I WOULD ALREADY BE IN MEDJUGORJE CONFESSING.” (1987)

On March 22nd, 1995 “ARE YOU NOT VICKA FROM MEDJUGORJE?” he asked her. Vicka then offered him a rosary saying: “I guess you have many rosaries already, but this one is special as it was blessed by Gospa during an apparition.” The Pope said to her: “PRAY TO THE MADONNA FOR ME, I PRAY FOR YOU.” He prayed over her a long time & blessed her.

The Archbishop of Paraguay, Mons. Felipe Santiago Bentez, in November of 1994 asked of the Holy Father, the Pope if he was right to give approval to the faithful gathering in the spirit of Medjugorje, especially with the priests of Medjugorje. The Holy Father answered: “APPROVE ALL THAT IS RELATED TO MEDJUGORJE”.

Pope John Paul II, in response to a question asked by the Archbishop of Asuncion, La Paz, Bolivia. - Feb. 1995 “AUTHORIZE EVERYTHING THAT REGARDS MEDJUGORJE”

On April 6th, 1995 a Croatian Delegation made an official visit to the Holy Father. The Delegation included the President Tudjman, the Vice President Radic and Cardinal Kuharic from Zagreb. The Pope read his official statement and afterwards, as he often does, he spontaneously added a few words of his own. “I WANT TO GO TO SPLIT, TO MARIA BISTRICA AND TO MEDJUGORJE!”

On April 2, 1986 reported by Fr. Ivan Dugandzic, OFM, during a meeting with the Holy Father. The Holy Father told him that he follows the events continously. “YOU CAN TELL EVERYONE THAT EACH DAY I PRAY FOR A HAPPY CONCLUSION TO THESE EVENTS.”

“MEDJUGORJE IS A GREAT CENTRE OF SPIRITUALITY!” - The Holy Father’s comment during a February 1990 conversation, as reported by Bishop Murilo Krieger, Auxiliary Bishop of Florianopolis, Brazil, made prior to His Grace’s fourth Medjugorje pilgrimage. The Holy Father assented to Bishop Krieger’s request and gave his papal blessing to the visionaries (National Catholic Register, April 29, 1990)

“IF I WASNT THE POPE, I’D BE IN MEDJUGORJE ALREADY!” - Reported April 21, 1998 by Bishop Paul Hnilica, SJ, Auxiliary Bishop of Rome, after having been admonished by the Holy Father for not stopping in Medjugorje on his return trip to Rome from a meeting in Moscow on behalf of the Pope.

medjugorje.org/pope.htm

In Jesus Name Thy Will Be Done, Amen and Amen (*)
 
Dear readers,

All these are quotes that others have put in the mouth of the pope. J.P.II has NEVER publicly said one word in favour or against Medjugorje. He respects the position of the bishops of Mostar. Others have manipulated his name.And in this forum it has been repeated already that Card. Ratzinger in a signed german letter of July 22 1998 ( I possess a copy of the original ) says that all these positive quotes put in the mouth of J.P.II are freely invented ( ’ frei erfunden’ ). If you want to be free of all these manipulations of Medjugorje-propagandists, then read some reliable websites under www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/MedjWebSites.htm
My wish for 2006 is that the Lord may grant you the wisdom to discern between illicit propaganda from many websites without jurisdiction or authority, and a few websites with honest evidence, mere facts and common sense.
 
I went to the Web Site called Unity Publishing. This site gives me the creeps. While it is true that the Church never officially approved of Medjugorje, it has certainly approved of the Charismatic movement. Unity Publishing has terrible things to say about the Charismatic movement, too.

I feel that people on this thread are slandering the visionaires and the Franciscians from Medjugorje. The visionaries should not be attacked like they are being attacked in this thread. It almost reminds me of Christ being crucified.

People who came away from Medjugorje with a beautiful experience do not need to be told that their experience was not valid. And yes, I do believe that Pope John Paul II said many positive things about the place.

I will always be grateful that I was able to travel to Medjugorje and sit on a rock on Apparition Hill while Ivan was having one of his visions. Although I didn’t witness any miracles, I came away spiritually refreshed.

I will always remember the crowds of people climbing Cross Mountain, singing hymns in different languages. As I was coming down the mountain, afraid of falling, and not knowing which crooked rock to step on next, these strangers grabbed my hand so I wouldn’t fall.

I fail to see why Satan would have wanted to convert all of those people!
 
Dear Listener and other readers,

I have been 24 times to Medjugorje. So I know what’s going on there. I can tell you Ivan had never one authentic vision on the ‘apparition’ hill. Before 1981 he was thin and poor. Now he is fat and rich.These are FACTS, not slander.I have been his interpreter. Me too, I’ve had wonderful experiences and feelings(!) in Med. I have assisted beautiful H.Masses from charismatic groups. Coming back home I have created an own charismatic group in my own village. But this is not a proof that there were real ‘apparitions’ in Med.Many books give proofs that the ‘seers’ have lied from the very beginning during the first days. And who is ‘the liar from the beginning’? I possess the texts of the interviews of the ‘children’ on tape recorder of the first days.It’s full of nonsense, lies, contradictions… But the clever franciscans ( Jozo Zovko, Tomislav Vlasic…)took over after 10 days and they put some structure in the ‘messages’. In Med. everything is well organised by the franciscans now, but they are manipulating the whole world in their struggle with bishop and Rome. And when at last Ratzinger will forbid Medjugorje, I’m sure many so-called ‘converted’ Medjugorje fans will go in rebellion against the pope. Do you now understand this trap of Satan?
 
Truth and Love forwarded this to me via email - great read. Be sure to click “page 2” at the bottom of the first page.

Appearances can be downright deceptive
Code: 
		 			  By Simon Caldwell
	      **A rash of dubious miracles and rival congregations is trying the Vatican’s patience**
Especially noteworthy is what is said in several places on Medjugorje. In particular this paragraph which comes near the end:

There is a mounting expectation that Benedict will eventually move against this unauthorised Marian cult, some of whose supporters, like those of Father Burresi, hold high office in the Church and were rumoured to have persuaded John Paul not to intervene.

Of course, this is speculation, duly pointed out by the author in his use of the word “rumoured”. But, it has been my gut feeling, as well.

There have been way too many attacks on the Bishop of the place, Bishop Ratko Peric, and his predecessor Zanic. When Catholics begin nitpicking at the Ordinary, and spreading rumors, inuendo, and outright calumny, that too, is a fruit of Medjugorje.

Aside from all of this, I have no doubt that the Blessed Mother is aiding a good many conversions through Medjugorje, but not because she appeared there. Many good things are happening just due to good use of the sacraments and devotions.
 
I would just like to thank Lux and everyone who has participated in this thread.

Does anyone have any practicable experience of how to bring Medj believers back to follow the local Ordinary’s teaching - in a charitable way?

Many thanks in anticipation,

DD
 
I doubt I am alone in this.

The sad part of the controversy surrounding Medjugorje is in that it makes me seriously question other apparitions including Fatima and Lourdes. If books, such as “The Miracle Detective” and others can be so convincing as to the authenticity of the “seers”; and if falsehood can be so widely accepted as fact, then this casts additional doubt to any such phenomeon. Very sad.

Is it possible that our desire for this sort of thing is so great, that we sub-consciously manufacture it with no malintent?
 
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Mijoy2:
I doubt I am alone in this.

The sad part of the controversy surrounding Medjugorje is in that it makes me seriously question other apparitions including Fatima and Lourdes. If books, such as “The Miracle Detective” and others can be so convincing as to the authenticity of the “seers”; and if falsehood can be so widely accepted as fact, then this casts additional doubt to any such phenomeon. Very sad.

Is it possible that our desire for this sort of thing is so great, that we sub-consciously manufacture it with no malintent?
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There are big differences between Medjugorje and places like Fatima or Lourdes.
  1. Seer(s) weren’t disrespectful to the local Bishop.
  2. Miracles were documented. Many of those, I believe would stand the test today and there are some declared in modern day. . They take 12-20 years to follow through with declaring a something a miracle after it has happened and there is very strict criteria. Hundreds of claims have been sent to the laboratory in Lourdes from Medjugorje and to date, all have been debunked. When a person with a visibly damaged cornea can suddenly see, and medical science cannot explain that sudden cure, what else would you call it?
  3. Lourdes and Fatima are Church approved, but you are within your right to not believe as it is considered private revelation.
  4. I could list other things, but do not have time. So, someone else oblige me on how Medjugorje differs from Lourdes or Fatima.
 
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deekod1967:
I would just like to thank Lux and everyone who has participated in this thread.

Does anyone have any practicable experience of how to bring Medj believers back to follow the local Ordinary’s teaching - in a charitable way?

Many thanks in anticipation,

DD
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I believe Pope Benedict will take care of it - in due time. My original prediction was that it would happen in two years. That was about 6 months ago. Hopefully, no one gets this thread locked and we can resurrect it periodically with news.
 
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Lux_et_veritas:
One thing I’ll add, if not more later as my memory is sparked is that when I left the order in 1983 due to illness, I didn’t bother to keep up on it.
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So you ended up in Hercegovina how…They shipped you all the way out there, or you decided that was a good place to be, God told you to take the next plane…? I’m not questioning your intentions. I try to do as God asks, myself. I ask only because it is confusing to me, if you’re a native of the region, as your English is really clear. I know Americans are typically depicted as not being adept at foreign languages, so I always marvel at those who can.
 
This is the first time I’ve been back here in about a month, and I probably won’t be back again for a long while, so this was a very timely resurrection of this thread (that I have participated in the past). I hope Pope Benedict does do something about this. Like Mijoy, Medj has been major fule for my doubts in any apparitions (incl. Fatima & Lourdes), Catholicism and more.
 
some people above have pointed out that the apparition could be diabolical and at the same time lead people to God.

the devil can indeed inadvertantly bring us closer to God. I experienced something predernatural one night a few months ago and it has been a catalyst in my faith. The devil inadvertantly brought me in closer communion with God.

I can’t say Medjugorje is diabolical with much conviction since I don’t know much about the apparitions but holy obedience has been an attribute of all the saints I know of and I would be critical of the ‘seers’.

all this confusion among even good Christians reminds me of a verse in the Bible, that I can’t remember and maybe someone can help me out, where we are warned in regards to the end times of wide confusion and deception among even the faithful.
 
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OutinChgoburbs:
So you ended up in Hercegovina how…They shipped you all the way out there, or you decided that was a good place to be, God told you to take the next plane…? I’m not questioning your intentions. I try to do as God asks, myself. I ask only because it is confusing to me, if you’re a native of the region, as your English is really clear. I know Americans are typically depicted as not being adept at foreign languages, so I always marvel at those who can.
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I an American of Croatian descent. I was very active in a Croatian Catholic parish, which is the Latin Rite, but just an ethnic parish. I knew from when I was 14 I wanted to be a religious, but was turned off by the “modern” nuns who were pushing for ordination of women, which is all I had exposure to, until I went on a trip to Chicago where there is also a Croatian parish. I saw nuns there in long habits, but they didn’t speak English so I asked my English speaking pastor. I was 16. Two years later, following my graduation, I was on a plane for Bijelo Polje, Hercegovina where the motherhouse was.

That’s how I got there. The intent was that I would learn the language, then likely get reassigned back in the US after I was professed. I was there 2.5 years before illness brought me home and out of the convent. I left while in the novitiate.
 
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Lux_et_veritas:
There are big differences between Medjugorje and places like Fatima or Lourdes.
  1. Seer(s) weren’t disrespectful to the local Bishop.
  2. Miracles were documented. Many of those, I believe would stand the test today and there are some declared in modern day. . They take 12-20 years to follow through with declaring a something a miracle after it has happened and there is very strict criteria. Hundreds of claims have been sent to the laboratory in Lourdes from Medjugorje and to date, all have been debunked. When a person with a visibly damaged cornea can suddenly see, and medical science cannot explain that sudden cure, what else would you call it?
  3. Lourdes and Fatima are Church approved, but you are within your right to not believe as it is considered private revelation.
  4. I could list other things, but do not have time. So, someone else oblige me on how Medjugorje differs from Lourdes or Fatima.
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Thank you and I welcome all information. I appreciate your pointing out of how Medj differs from the other two apparition sites.

What troubles me is what is similiar.

Young seers. (under the age I’d suggest of developing such an elaborate scheme on thier own). BTW Medj is even more facinating in this regard where the number of seers is 6.

Unshakable wills of the seers.

No apparent motive (on part of the seers, not others who attempt to profit from the affair).

However, like you Lux I don’t wish to see an end to this thread and if our Holy Father has something to say on this I await with anxious ears.
 
Lux, thanks very much for the link to that article. Very informative and hopeful.
 
I also applaud the above link to the list of approved Lourdes miraculous cures, I know I am slightly off-topic here - but I found this interesting article on the last cure as confirmed by the Church. Jean-Pierre Bely, an Italian father of two, was cured instantly of severe multiple sclerosis while in his sick bed at Lourdes…

ewtn.com/library/MARY/ZLOURDES.HTM

I also doubt whether we will ever see such confirmed cures at Medjugorje, but I remain open to the possibility - but not as a result of authentic apparition, more through God responding in kind to his faithful flock.

Help of the sick, pray for us.

DD
 
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Lux_et_veritas:
I believe Pope Benedict will take care of it - in due time. My original prediction was that it would happen in two years. That was about 6 months ago. Hopefully, no one gets this thread locked and we can resurrect it periodically with news.
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Thanks Diane,

I dont know if I can wait that long!

What about the claims that the CDF will never approve/disprove anything at Medjugorje until the “messages” stop and further investigations are made?

I am creating a “summary sheet” based on this thread which I will give to those I know who believe Medj as authentic in the interim. Have you ever convinced others to revert and believe once again in the local ordinary at Medj as you do now? If so - what was your tack?

Many thanks,

DD
 
DD,

That claim is a kind of smoke screen for at least a couple reasons. Firstly, CDF may never get involved at all; to date the CDF has referred to the decision of “non constat” (1991) as the Church’s position. Secondly, while a judgment of authentic supernaturality of an apparition would, in prudence, follow cessation of the events taking place, that scenario could not happen in Medjugorje: according to the CDF’s 1978 norms for discerning alleged apparitions, that particular scenario is the third step in the entire process. The initial step is examination of the facts of the case. Following a favorable examination of facts, step two entails the allowing of public devotion and continuing investigation. Only then, after time, could step three follow. Medjugorje did not get a favorable result in the examination of its facts, and failed step one; public devotion has never been permitted, the title Queen of Medjugorje has not been allowed, and investigations are not continuing.
 
way too many acronyms. Sorry CDF? This seems to be too high tech. Acronyms are way too taken for granted. :o
 
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