Medjugorje - A True Confession

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Tominellay:
DD,

That claim is a kind of smoke screen for at least a couple reasons. Firstly, CDF may never get involved at all; to date the CDF has referred to the decision of “non constat” (1991) as the Church’s position. Secondly, while a judgment of authentic supernaturality of an apparition would, in prudence, follow cessation of the events taking place, that scenario could not happen in Medjugorje: according to the CDF’s 1978 norms for discerning alleged apparitions, that particular scenario is the third step in the entire process. The initial step is examination of the facts of the case. Following a favorable examination of facts, step two entails the allowing of public devotion and continuing investigation. Only then, after time, could step three follow. Medjugorje did not get a favorable result in the examination of its facts, and failed step one; public devotion has never been permitted, the title Queen of Medjugorje has not been allowed, and investigations are not continuing.
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The problem is that most Catholics are totally unaware of this and think that what is happening in Medjugorie is real and the local franciscans perpetuate this thinking by claiming that the Holy See has not yet given approval implying approval is pending. The Masses do not realise that approval is not pending because there is no need for Rome to make a decision because, as you correctly pointed out, step one in the process failed.
I understand that when Pope Benedict was still Cardinal Ratzinger he called Medjugorie a hoax. Its just a pity that this statement could not be publicly announced now he is Pope.
 
CDF - Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

Google search did it. However, Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith ?? Still a bit in dark. Who gets to decide what is doctrine? Does the “Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith” equate to Papal inerrancy in these matter?
 
I understand that when Pope Benedict was still Cardinal Ratzinger he called Medjugorie a hoax. Its just a pity that this statement could not be publicly announced now he is Pope.
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Here’s a link to the article and an exerpt:
jamaicaobserver.com/columns/html/20050423T220000-0500_79264_OBS_BENEDICT_XVI_LIKELY_TO_BE_MORE_RATIONAL_THAN_JOHN_PAUL_II.asp

“One priest said that during a recent visit to the Pontifical Bibilical Institute in Rome, **the former Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was strongly critical of the popular cult surrounding the Virgin of Medjugorje in Bosnia Herzegovina, describing it as a hoax.”
**

Bishop Zanic (Bishop Ratko Peric’s predecessor) had some strong words, including, prohibition of the publication of the messages, placing the folks running the medjugorje.org website in a state of blatant disobedience:

ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/ZANICMED.HTM

Here are some exerpts of a letter written to the Parish Priest of Mostar, Father Tomislav Pervan, from Bishop Zanic in 1984, linked above:

"… At our meeting, held in the Chancery Office in Mostar on October 31, 1984,** I demanded that Medjugorje’s occurrences “be toned down and eliminated little by little.”**

In the meantime, matters remain as they were, and a great disgrace is expected to befall the Church. Now, without any delay, after all this, I demand from you that you remove the “visionaries” from public display and put an end to their “visions” in the parish church. …

You must stop talking about apparitions and also cease publicizing messages. The devotions that grew out of the “apparitions” and their messages must be eliminated, sales of souvenirs and printed material which propagate the “apparitions” must also stop. The faithful can go to the sacrament of reconciliation and attend Mass. I do not allow the other priests, especially Fathers Jozo Zovko, Tomislav Vlasic and Ljudevit Rupcic, to celebrate Mass for the faithful or to preach." …"
In my opinion, these are very strong words that leave little room room for justification of ecclesiastical disobedience, which is, by the way, a mortal sin against the fourth commandment and is an act that brings one in proximity to schism.

What I’m trying to emphasize is that an act of ecclesiastical disobedience, especially against a bishop, is something to be taken very, very seriously.

With regards to Medjugorje, only private devotion is currently allowed. You aren’t allowed to spread the messages, basically.

God Bless!
 
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GoldenArrow:
Here’s a link to the article and an exerpt:
jamaicaobserver.com/columns/html/20050423T220000-0500_79264_OBS_BENEDICT_XVI_LIKELY_TO_BE_MORE_RATIONAL_THAN_JOHN_PAUL_II.asp

“One priest said that during a recent visit to the Pontifical Bibilical Institute in Rome, **the former Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was strongly critical of the popular cult surrounding the Virgin of Medjugorje in Bosnia Herzegovina, describing it as a hoax.”
**

Bishop Zanic (Bishop Ratko Peric’s predecessor) had some strong words, including, prohibition of the publication of the messages, placing the folks running the medjugorje.org website in a state of blatant disobedience:

ewtn.com/library/BISHOPS/ZANICMED.HTM

Here are some exerpts of a letter written to the Parish Priest of Mostar, Father Tomislav Pervan, from Bishop Zanic in 1984, linked above:

"… At our meeting, held in the Chancery Office in Mostar on October 31, 1984,** I demanded** that Medjugorje’s occurrences “be toned down and eliminated little by little.”

In the meantime, matters remain as they were, and a great disgrace is expected to befall the Church. Now, without any delay, after all this, I demand from you that you remove the “visionaries” from public display and put an end to their “visions” in the parish church. …

You must stop talking about apparitions and also cease publicizing messages. The devotions that grew out of the “apparitions” and their messages must be eliminated, sales of souvenirs and printed material which propagate the “apparitions” must also stop. The faithful can go to the sacrament of reconciliation and attend Mass. I do not allow the other priests, especially Fathers Jozo Zovko, Tomislav Vlasic and Ljudevit Rupcic, to celebrate Mass for the faithful or to preach." …"
In my opinion, these are very strong words that leave little room room for justification of ecclesiastical disobedience, which is, by the way, a mortal sin against the fourth commandment and is an act that brings one in proximity to schism.

What I’m trying to emphasize is that an act of ecclesiastical disobedience, especially against a bishop, is something to be taken very, very seriously.

With regards to Medjugorje, only private devotion is currently allowed. You aren’t allowed to spread the messages, basically.

God Bless!
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Thanks. Unfortunately most Catholics have no clue what the real situation there is. I wonder why priests at mass on Sundays don’t mention something like this or are they forbidden to do so?
 
What is the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith? It is part of the Curia at the Vatican, subcategory Congregations, of which the CDF is one. My understanding is that the CDF is the watchdog for the Teaching Magesterium of the Church. It is a very important job. They basically guard the Divine Revelations already given to the Church. Divine Revelation is given to us from God through Sacred Scripture (Bible) and Sacred Tradition (Dogmas and other stuff).

Can the CDF make infallible statements?

That depends. I am under the impression that Infallibility lies with statements made by the Pope in union with the other Apostles, the Bishops, and in Papal statements declared ex-cathedra (papal infallibility), Papal Encyclicals and Apostolic letters.

For example, the last infallible statement I’m aware of was Pope John Paul II’s declaration that the priesthood will be an office only available only to men, now, in in the future. That is, women will never be priests. Specific language was used, such as “I declare …” This statement was made in an Apostolic letter, written by the Pope, of course. Infallible statements are usually accompanied by such strong, specific language.

If the CDF makes a statement outside the Papacy and outside the unity of the Church (Bishop of Rome+All the other bishops), that statement may lack infallibility. But usually, the Pope would agree in such matters. If the Pope was not in agreement with a statement issued by the CDF, it would not be Infallible. Also, the person running the CDF would be in hot water with the Pope. HA! That is about all I know.

I can’t fully answer this question. Anyone else know? Maybe you should post the questions about the CDF in Apologetics, where the big boys and girls play. LOL!!!

Infallibility also has some relation to jurisdiction. The Pope has jurisdiction over governing the entire Church, and in matters relating to the entire Church he has authority. Local bishops also have a degree of infallibility relating to matters under their jurisdiction. One example is Private Revelations of Parishoners who lie in the geographic region of a particular Bishop. That bishop, called a Local Ordinary, then has 100% authority over the matter and the faithful flock in his region are bound to obey any declarations he issues. (This is, of course, in matter of faith or morals).

Here’s a link to the different Congregations, which include the CDF:
vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/index.htm

Hope that helps! God bless!
 
I wonder why priests at mass on Sundays don’t mention something like this or are they forbidden to do so?
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I think ignorance is the answer. The promoters of Medjugorje are experts at public relations. This information isn’t widely known.

The internet is a powerful piece of communication and we the faithful should use it to enforce these documents.

Also, we should copy and print the latest declaration of Bishop Ratko Peric (2004) and stick it in adoration chapels. That’s what I do. This info is available in an earlier thread, but I’ll paste the link for you.

Click on Medjugorje on the left. This takes you to the preface for the English document. Then click on the word Opširnije… at the bottom for the full document. I highlighted, copied and pasted the document into Wordpad, printed a few copies and left them in our Church’s adoration chapel. It also isn’t a bad idea to hand a copy directly to your parish priest. Make sure you cite a link for copyright reasons.

From the Official Diocese of Mostar Duvno Website (Homepage):
cbismo.hr/

The website is created using frames, so I can’t provide a direct link.

God Bless!
 
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GoldenArrow:
I think ignorance is the answer. The promoters of Medjugorje are experts at public relations. This information isn’t widely known.

The internet is a powerful piece of communication and we the faithful should use it to enforce these documents.

Also, we should copy and print the latest declaration of Bishop Ratko Peric (2004) and stick it in adoration chapels. That’s what I do. This info is available in an earlier thread, but I’ll paste the link for you.

Click on Medjugorje on the left. This takes you to the preface for the English document. Then click on the word Opširnije… at the bottom for the full document. I highlighted, copied and pasted the document into Wordpad, printed a few copies and left them in our Church’s adoration chapel. It also isn’t a bad idea to hand a copy directly to your parish priest. Make sure you cite a link for copyright reasons.

From the Official Diocese of Mostar Duvno Website (Homepage):
cbismo.hr/

The website is created using frames, so I can’t provide a direct link.

God Bless!
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Thanks. I pasted in to Word and saved it. I’ll print off copies to take to the Church. I guess I should talk to a priest first before leaving the leaflets lying around.
 
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thistle:
The problem is that most Catholics are totally unaware of this and think that what is happening in Medjugorie is real and the local franciscans perpetuate this thinking by claiming that the Holy See has not yet given approval implying approval is pending. The Masses do not realise that approval is not pending because there is no need for Rome to make a decision because, as you correctly pointed out, step one in the process failed.
I understand that when Pope Benedict was still Cardinal Ratzinger he called Medjugorie a hoax. Its just a pity that this statement could not be publicly announced now he is Pope.
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This is an excellent summary of what I’ve tried, sometimes in vain, to explain in various forums on the topic. People do not realize the graces that fall onto authentic seers and their followers. When “seers” attack the bishop whom the Church gives jurisdiction to discern such spirits and matters, it shows a total lack of grace. Yet followers and seers feel they are justified in their public and private attacks, which are as subtle sometimes as just saying, “Bishop Peric doesn’t even support Fatima or Lourdes”. The outright calumny and detraction at Medjugorje supporter sights highlight the problem even more. The Holy Spirit will not grace such followers with attacks on a public figure responsible for discerning the apparition. When calumny and detraction show up in the diary of a “seer” that is a real problem. This is included in the “facts” that are gathered. There was lying caught at the outset, which immediately raised concern on the part of Bishop Zanic because the grace bestowed on a seer would not allow this if it were authentic. Yet, they tried to hide the fact that they were smoking behind a barn when the “BVM” appeared. Bishop Zanic himself, very Marian, wanted nothing more than for it to prove out true. What bishop would not want a Lourdes or Fatima in his backyard - if it were authentic? But, he had a duty to protect the Church from harm and once the lie was visible, and then the miracles didn’t come as promised (delay, delay and more delays), then the “BVM” started backing up a Franciscan priest who had been sleeping with a nun (public record after info was found in diary and being promoted by at least one seer). The Vatican had stripped him of his priestly duties, but the “BVM”, according to the seer, said he was a “good priest” and “the bishop was wrong” (paraphrased).

How big of a red flag does one need?

Thanks to thistle and Golden_Arrow for your contributions to this thread. I hope all will keep it in the spirit of helping others to see the truth.
 
PROPHESY

A major test of any apparition is “Prophesy”. Almost all true apparitions of God have some short-term prophesies and some of long duration. Never will God ask us to believe a prophesy without first proving the prophet with a short-term prophesy that has already come true.

In Fatima twenty-nine of the thirty prophecies have already come to pass: the two children’s early death, Communism, the miracle of the sun, the end of World War I, World War II, the fall of Russian Communism, etc. Since only God sees the future, it is one way He proves the authenticity of the seer. God cannot make mistakes, therefore, the prophecies must be 100% correct. How about** Medjugorje?**

On July 3, 1981, the “Virgin” promises a sign.

“It will be permanent…It will not be possible to annihilate it…It will be visible for everybody.”

August 27, 1981: “It will come soon.”

August 29, 1981: “A little more patience.”

Later…“It will be on December 8, 1981.”

Later…“It will be on Christmas.”

Later…“It will be January 1982.”

It is now 1996 and there is still no sign. Prophets?
Let us start with the words of** Padre Pio:**

“Where there is no OBEDIENCE, there is no virtue. Where there is no virtue, there is no good. Where there is no good, there is no love. Where there is no love, there is no God. Where there is no God, there is no Paradise.”
Bishop Zanic said:

“IT IS NOT THE VIRGIN MARY APPEARING AT MEDJUGORJE.”

Archbishop, Cardinal Kuharic said:

“IT IS NOT THE VIRGIN MARY APPEARING AT MEDJUGORJE.”

Lucia of Fatima said, Do not go there —

“IT IS NOT THE VIRGIN MARY APPEARING AT MEDJUGORJE.”

Therefore, we say,

“IT IS NOT THE VIRGIN MARY APPEARING AT MEDJUGORJE.”

Source

Medjugorje = disobedience.
 
I just have to say, that I have enjoyed this interesting thread very much. And am grateful the mods have not locked it.
 
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ridesawhitehors:
I just have to say, that I have enjoyed this interesting thread very much. And am grateful the mods have not locked it.
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I am grateful that the participants of this thread have abided by the forum rules! Good job so far guys!

Just for any newcomers:
Discussions about whether an apparition is approved, the church’s stance on it, and factual documentation, are OK to discuss.

Promoting devotion to unapproved apparitions such as through posting unapproved “revelations” or through proselytization for an unapproved apparition is not allowed.

Of note would be the following forum rules:
  • Do not view the discussion area as a vehicle for single-mindedly promoting an agenda.
  • Non-Catholics are welcome to participate but must be respectful of the faith of the Catholics participating on the board.
  • Do not post material from unapproved private revelations.
 
I also wanted to clarify an earlier statement I’d made about Infallibility with regards to Local Ordinaries (Bishops).

Infallibility may be the wrong word … or the right word … depending on how you look at it. A more proper word would be Authority. A local bishop derives his authority over his local geographical region directly from God, that is he does not get his governing powers from the Pope. In essence, to disobey a Local Ordinary in a matter of faith or morals is to disobey God.

Knowing that, if a Local Ordinary makes a declaration on an apparition falling within his geographical region and if we hear nothing contrary to that declaration from official channels attributed to the Bishop of Rome, then we say that the Local Ordinary’s declaration is in Union with Rome, and therefore, his statements with regards to the apparitions are binding to all of the faithful, not just those within the diocese of the Local Ordinary. What I’m trying to say is that **if the Pope agrees with the Local Ordinary (by virtue of the Pope’s silence), then the declaration made by the Local Ordinary is to be obeyed as if the Local Ordinary were the Pope himself. **

If the Pope disagrees, for the disagreement to be binding for all of the faithful, a contrary statement must be done officially. Papal diaries or private writings not meant for the public do not count.

Someone here said that anti-Medjugorje folks are essentially scourging Jesus by criticizing the Visionaries and their affiliates. I say the opposite is true. The pro-Medjugorje Catholics are the ones doing the scourging—to Bishop Ratko Peric and his predecessor, Bishop Pavao Zanic—the persons who most closely represent Christ in the Diocese of Mostar-Duvno. Your scourges consist of wounding Our Lord through disobedience to His chosen successors to the original Apostles. The pro-Medjugorie Catholics need to realize that the authentic priests in the Diocese of Mostar are representatives of the Bishop, who in turn are the closest representatives of Christ. You do not obtain grace through the Apparition, but through the God, through the Local Ordinary Bishop, through the Priests under the Local Ordinary, though the Sacraments, to you, in that order. Those who criticize the Catholics supporting Bishops Peric and Zanic should remove the logs from their own eyes before attempting to remove any logs that lay in our eyes.

No hard feelings. 🙂 God Bless!
 
Thank you for starting this thread. I also have had some major concerns with Medjugorje (just like I have problems with the “Co-Redemptrix” titles), but, as a new Catholic, I have kept pretty quiet about it. It is encouraging to read this insightful and thought-provoking discussion.

(I have an article on prayer currently under review at a very popular Catholic magazine. If accepted, I might submit another one focusing on observations concerning Marian controversies.)
 
Please bear with me on this post, it has taken me a majority of two days to read all of this thread. I have gone to the majority of the links. Here is my story of “conversion” from Medjugorie. My Grandparents were Croatian, born and raised. they emigrated to the U.S in the early 1900’s. My mother is the second oldest of 10. Her oldest sister has been to Medjugorie, conservatively about 24 times in the past 15-20 years. I was in my early 20’s when we first heard stories coming from Yugoslavia about the visions happening in Medjugorie. My aunt brought back as much written info as she could for her brother and sisters, so through the grapevine I read much material on this subject. What a powerful thing to be happening so close to where my Grandparents were born. Our native land so to speak! My Aunt brought back statues for all of us, I have it on a shelf in my living room under a picture of our Blessed Virgin. About 4 years ago my oldest and dearest friend came to visit with her new husband.What a wonderful man he is, raised on a farm in southern Mn. Catholic school and the whole shooting match.I immediately took to him, as a matter of fact I thanked him for coming into her life. One morning over coffee, he asked me if I had ever heard of Medjugorie. I was instantly blathering about what was" going on" there, showed him statues that I had in my home. He asked me if I’d like to watch a video he had brought with him entitled “Messages from Heaven” we were interrrupted in our conversation by children waking up and breakfast being made. He left the video with me and asked me to watch it when I had time. A few days passed and I remembered the video. Sat down, put in the tape, pushed play, and my life changed at that very moment. Little did I realize what the next three years would hold for me and that tape.Basically the video talked about the visions happening at Medjugorie, that they were not heavenly visions, and that the Catholic church and even the Pope were agreeing with what was going on there and basically we must all leave the Catholic religion since we are going against what the Bible is teaching us. A lot of quoting scripture, starting with 1 Thesolothians 5: 20-21 Test all things; hold fast those that are good. They would quote from one of the seers messages and then say that it was a church sanctioned message. Such as: message from Mary Queen of Heaven(Church sanctioned) and then a scripture passage Jeremiah 7:18 Questions raised such as Co-Redemtrix, contrary to biblical reference, Isaiah 47:4, Isaiah 47: 1,5,9. I could go on but I hope you get the gist of what this Video was saying. Could have knocked me over with a feather.
 
continued;

whoa confused, not a bible reader, so I had a lot to get through. I was going to prove this tape wrong and show my friends husband he was wrong. He has left the Catholic church after viewing this tape, and basically was trying to save me from my beliefs. I brought this tape to a woman I knew who did a Bible study in her home (catholic), she is very devout and has a deep love for our Blessed Mother. Boy was she mad at me when I asked her what she thought of the whole thing. Basically she didn’t have any answers for me so I was back to square one. I sat on this for about two years, but it was always in the back of my mind. I had been saying Hail Mary’s all my life, and yet I stopped because I was afraid that I was doing something horribly wrong. Let me state at this point in my life I was deffinately not a practicing catholic. Luke warm at best, such as, " who does that priest think he is telling me I can’t use contraceptives, what does he know about marriage and raising children." Confession was unnecesary, God knew I was sorry why did I need to confess to a priest…I can go to communion after all Jesus didn’t say “take this and eat it” but only you non-sinners…I dare say I have made my point!! Oh but something was gnawing at me, I had to put my friends husband straight, or maybe it was me that needed to be put straight, maybe the Catholic church WAS wrong!! Enter, the new Priest at my parish. He was young, and smart, and easy to talk to. Yup that’s what I’d do, I’d go to him with this tape and if he couldn’t answer these questions for me, I was gone, outta here, see ya.He watched that video, and he called ,and asked me to come speak with him. Oh I did my research, I had Bible quotes, I had questions, I wanted him to answer me. Wanna know what he said? You’ve been lied to. There is No sanctioning for these messages. Pray, pray and pray. Ask our Lady to help, You wanna go on Pilgramige go to Fatima. He gave me a book on apologetics, How to defend Mary. You could have knocked me over with a feather!!
 
continued;

within 8 weeks of that visit to him, I was in a confessional for the first time in 25 years, I have been re-converted(a word?) I have a faith so deep I could never in the world have immagined, I have a love so pure for the Eucharist I would rather die than miss any chance to attend mass. I wish I could be there everyday. I read the Bible, I seek any kind of knowledge about our faith I can, I do Eucharistic Adoration weekly, and I pray the Rosary every morning. So my point…Medjugorie was the catalyst, to a deeper relationship with Christ, and yet it was through our Blessed Virgin that this intercession happened. Here I was trying to run from her and ran right into HIM. Kinda Ironic isn’t it? But I will always know the Lord works in mysterious ways, so even though my hope was that Medjugorie was true, I know now that our Blessed Virgin will always lead us directly to Jesus Christ, if we are true to our church and faith. Thanks for listening(reading I guess) and God bless you Diane for helping those who don’t have access to a GREAT PRIEST like I did. May he Bless and keep you all the days of your life.
 
Maryj:

That is a very interesting Medjugorje conversion story. So … what you’re saying is that you don’t believe in Medjugorje but attribute a conversion to it because of anti-Catholic materials generated because of it? You were led to investigate the true teaching of the Church in order to refute the video you were shown? Learning the true teachings of the Church–in this seach for truth–led you to a deeper conversion of heart? WOW! I approve.

God bless you!
 
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GoldenArrow:
Maryj:

That is a very interesting Medjugorje conversion story. So … what you’re saying is that you don’t believe in Medjugorje but attribute a conversion to it because of anti-Catholic materials generated because of it? You were led to investigate the true teaching of the Church in order to refute the video you were shown? Learning the true teachings of the Church–in this seach for truth–led you to a deeper conversion of heart? WOW! I approve.

God bless you!
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Dat be the story!! somehow you used A LOT less words than I did!!
 
To all people interested in the whole truth about Medjugorje :
Soon the english publisher Donal Foley will release a brandnew book " Understanding Medjugorje " with new insights and new photos showing the many manipulations from the very beginning. See www.theotokos.org.uk
Also the french expert Joachim Bouflet is preparing a new book about the biggest fraud in recent times in our church.
 
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