Medjugorje - A True Confession

[Eliza10]

Please pardon me that I don’t remember where I read this in this thread.

A common complaint against Medjugorje is that Mary appears so many times to these visionaries. Every day for so long makes a whole lot of times. That is compared to other visionaries to whom Mary appeared only a very few times by comparison.

But why would Mary appear in the same manner always? Doesn’t it seem like times are changing and that there is a whole lot more evil and a whole lot less faith these days? It would make sense she would change for us and for our times. We have such an onslaught of images and events - just on TV news alone. So few would notice Medjugorje if it was just a few times, a few years ago. Medjugorje gets noticed - and the other apparitions do too now - people who didn’t know about Fatima, for example, would learn about it. (for me it worked the opposite; Fatima first, and curiosity lead me to learn about Medjugorje).

One skeptic clapped their hands right in the face of a Medj. visionary (I think this was on the Unity site). The visionary started a bit, “proving” she was a fake. This visionary (Vicka?) later said she jumped because she saw Mary almost drop baby Jesus. The skeptic laughed at this “lie”. Well i agree the it doesn’t sound true.

I also think of the criticism that the children did not admit at first they had been smoking behind a barn when the first vision happened, and how they are therefore mocked therefore as being hardly candidtes for a vision.

I say, maybe Vicka (was that the visonary?) wasn’t fully concentrating at the time - she may have been distracted by the skeptics around her - therefore this is why she startled when somone quickly approached her and clapped in her face. Then when questioned, being told Our Lady was a fake becaus of her startle, in defense of Our lady and her failure she made up a story - as a child accustomed to being unfairly accused may be accostumed to doing when confronted on the spot.

Also the smoking. Its typical for a teen sneaking something to try to cover up what they are doing. Particularly when the whole world is watching! Didn’t they say early on that Our Lady said she appeared to them becasue she does not always pick the best?? What pressure these children are under, and how unprepared they were for it - anyone would be! Think of Juan Diago how he “forgot” Our Lady’s instructions and then walked the long way around to avoid her! Visionaries do some foolish things sometimes in spite of the grace bestowed on them.

When I read a “critique” of statements made by the visionaries on Unity (at a link I posted on one of my recent posts in this thread), the critic is so harsh and judgemental, I find it frightening. In the face of such as this, no wonder the visionaries don’t always say/do the right things.

Our Lady reportedly said one of the Medjugorje Priests was holy, then that same priest did something unholy (had an affair?). Just wondering, but could it have been he was holy, and even though Our Lady may have been privy to info he wasn’t going to always be, she was charitably referring to what he actually was at the time? Just because the Priest was blessed by His association with Mary doesn’t mean he becomes or remains holy. Look at Judas, with the best most loving teacher.

Another thing, i have wondered about is a comment made here, i beleive, that so many visionaries have “stemmed” from Medjugorje. Implying, basically, that they went there or were otherwise influenced by Medjugorje and then, inspired by “the demon”, had their own fake visions, or demon-inspired ones.

[continued in next post]

 

[Eliza10]

[continued from previous post]

All I know is i don’t find it easy to discount this phenomena. And I am inclined to look at Medjugorje with more openess and charity than so many of its staunch detractors. I have met those who are inspired by it or have made pilgrimages, but I have not ever met one who seemed fanatical about it, or stared at the sun, or had any kind of unbalanced postion towards it at all. And they all pray far more than most Catholics!

So when I read these weird reports here or at Unity Publishing about the strangeness and obssessiveness or unbalance of the Medj. supporters, I have to say, I just haven’t seen it myself.

And with all those people, you can always find “fringe”, or those with an oppostite spirit. Maybe, in fact, one could predict that one out of every twelve would one of “opposite spirits”. So then a critic could easily make a convincing case stemming from the actions of these “one out of twelve”. That kind of possibility is one reason why I am not convinced by the persuasive arguments put here. (I am not dicounting them - only saying that I am not convinced).

There are many, many having private visions now - they are springing up all over. I have read a little or a lot from several, and met a few - enough to count on one hand. In each case, i have been impressed with the profound humbleness and deep holiness and lack of any personal motive or personal prophet for the visions.

It seems to me that being open to the possibility of truth to so many visionaries is an overwhelming prospect. A person inclined or desirous to just make a quick judgment to eliminate many of them - and make their faith simplier - might just eliminate the whole entire lot in this way - - saying they are all somewhat connected to Medjugorje, or at least tell a similar message - so they can just be eliminated without real consideration or investigation. This is an easy way out to me. The rub is they tell you that you should reject them too, when you would prefer to keep an open mind and investigate for yourself. And not make any blanket statement about those you haven’t investigated or that the Church has not difinatively declared fraud.

What if Medjugoje is real. What if there is a reason - God’s reason - for visionaries and miraculous events or images springing up everywhere? What if we are heading to endtimes or disaster as they say, wouldn’t there be many local prophets scattered all around to warn us? Maybe these disasters are being lessened, avoided, and/or put further off in time by our prayers, which are inspired by the messages of these visionaries.

I do not doubt Diane’s and others sincerity and desire to defend the faith as they see fit.

But what if there is room for both in God’s plan? The visionaries with their private relations about the coming times, inspiring so very, very many to prayer, and the more tradtional Catholics, thriving and growing deeply in their faith and diet of strictly and clearly approved of apparitions and traditions, and inspiring others by this strong, solid, reasoned faith alone? Why not both?

It brings to mind the scripture where the Apostles are complaing about “others” preaching in Jesus’ name and Jesus says, “Don’t stop them. If they are not against, us they are for us.”

Why not just refer to these as “others”.

Just some random thoughts about this controversy.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Eliza:

Our Lady reportedly said one of the Medjugorje Priests was holy, then that same priest did something unholy (had an affair?). Just wondering, but could it have been he was holy, and even though Our Lady may have been privy to info he wasn’t going to always be, she was charitably referring to what he actually was at the time? Just because the Priest was blessed by His association with Mary doesn’t mean he becomes or remains holy. Look at Judas, with the best most loving teacher.

The Franciscan Priest was Fr. Ivica Vego and he impregnated a Franciscan Nun by the name of Sr. Leopolda. She was in my order and I recall her disappearing over night. I did not realize until years later, when reading diocesan documents that it was Fr. Ivica who impregnated her.

Two people, who themselves are not having visions would not count against Medjugorje. What does count against Medjugorje in this authentic affair, is that one of the seers had “revelations” written in her diary about this priest.

Eliza, I am baffled as to why you refuse to read the book endorsed by the apostolic successor of the diocese of Mostar-Duvno, written by Michael Davies. Your posts would clearly indicate you have not included this book in your list of readings to get a balanced view. This is not a theologian endorsing the book, it is the local Ordinary, the Bishop, the one whose opinion should be respected and sought out first, above any others. He publicly endorses this book and it is chock full of diocesan documents, full transcripts of tape recordings (not partial ones, devoid of condemning evidence, provided by pro-Medjugorje theologians, such as Laurentin). The book explains Laurentin’s reactions when confronted with having only shared with his readers the favorable portion of those taped manuscripts. It is in this book that you will read the following (empahsis all mine):

Before providing documentation to prove the falsity of the alleged apparitions, I will give just two examples of the degree of credibility which should be given to the self-styled seers of Medjugorje. The first incident is documented in the 1990 statement by Monsignor Zanic which is printed in full under the date May 1990. It concerns a Franciscan priest, expelled from the Franciscan Order by a direct command of Pope John Paul II. Father Vego seduced a nun, Sister Leopolda, and when she became pregnant they both left the religious life and began to live together near Medjugorje where their child was born. They now have two children. But prior to this, Father Vego refused to accept his expulsion and continued to celebrate Mass, administer the sacraments, and pass the time with his mistress. Why mention such a distasteful event? The reason is that the seers claimed that Our Lady appeared to them on 13 occasions stating that Father Vego was innocent, that he was as entitled to celebrate Mass as any other priest, and that the bishop was harsh! Any reader with a true sense of being a Catholic, a sensus catholicus, will need to read no further to realise the full extent of the mendacity of the seers, a mendacity which cannot be excused simply on the grounds that they have been manipulated by their Franciscan mentors…[please click on "Updated Version of Michael Davies’ Book at [/color]this site and go to pages 31 and 32 for the rest].

On that same page, 31, you will also find this:

In a pro-Medjugorje booklet published in 1991, Our Lady is alleged to have spoken as follows to Vicka on 3 January 1982:

Ivica is not guilty. Have him keep the faith even if he is expelled. I do not cease to repeat, “peace, peace, peace,” and in the meantime agitation increases. He is not guilty (Our Lady repeated this three times). The bishop does not keep order. That is why he is responsible. The justice which you have not seen will come back.29

     [29](http://#_ftnref1)         *Bishop Zanic—What Went Wrong?* (Saint James Publishing, P.O. Box 380244, Birmingham, Alabama), p. 5.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Eliza, what is so sad, is that you won’t take the time to read what is fully available online - the book endorsed by Bishop Peric, the Ordinary of Mostar Duvno.

That refusal, to humbly follow the suggestion of this Bishop, is itself a fruit of Medjugorje, and it is not a good fruit. Blowing him off, of all people, in favor of Laurentin, Rupcic, any of the “Seers”, or anyone else, who in someway contradicts the local Ordinary, is a real sad testimony which only bolsters what many of us are saying about how followers of Medjugorje treat the Catholic Church (by virtue of how they treat the Bishop, if only blowing him off).

Never blow off a local Ordinary. I did not have time to read this book, but after emailing him my apology and receiving an email back three days later, with him asking me to read his speech at Maynooth Ireland, his latest statement, and the MIchael Davies website (all available on the website I provid here, again, where the book can be read in its entirety online), I felt obligated to do so and I am very glad I did. If I were to remove all commentary from Michael Davies, the book remains about 2/3 full of diocesan, Vatican, and religious order documents - which is objective fact, not subjective hearsay.

You will see the Bishops endorsement either in the Maynooth Ireland speech or his latest statement. Both documents can be found on the Bishops own website, as well, but harder to navigate.

Please consider following his advice, in humble obedience, to simply read these three things, then come back and tell me point by point, which of these facts are wrong and why. Generalizations just don’t cut it when seeking the truth.

I regret that you feel this thread is somehow hurtful. However, consider that sometimes the truth is painful and maybe that is where the hurt comes in. We can never hide the truth on the basis of being charitable. To do so, to hide truth, is to be uncharitable in itself.

I see one pattern in many of your posts. You are chasing, chasing, chasing (the next phenomena). When do you finally stop chasing and simply rest in the peace of our Lord through the Sacraments and devotions richly given to us through the Catholic Church?

Seek comfort in Him, and in Him alone. Pray for a level of faith that does not require phenomena - that’s where it’s at.

With prayers…

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

I will add this for consideration Eliza:

To get at truth, you have to stop generalizations and get into hard facts, many of which were awfully painful for me because I lived there for over 2 years and personally knew many of the players.

This fact-finding makes the conversation objective (factual) and not subjective (full of emotion, opinion, and inuendo). I, like you, was blasting anyone on another board who spoke in any way against Medjugorje. After all, the Franciscans were my friends, and I counted Fr. Jozo among them and no one was going to bad mouth him in front of me. It took discovering facts found in bona fide church documents to uncover the truth and realize I had fallen, quite sinfully, into prideful support. I apologized to the man who had hit me over the head with a factual baseball bat, driving me to seek out the truth. I owe him a great deal, and I owe the grace of God a great deal for making me come to a humble conclusion. The devil is incapable of humility, and the self is not inclined to it due to original sin.

I pray for them, and we all need to pray for them daily, that they convert back to the Church and back to God. Many involved are operating outside of the Church either formally (excommunicated or defrocked), or informally by blowing off the bishop and speaking out against him, sometimes cloaked quite charitably I might add.

 

[4HisChurch]

Lux,
Thanks so much for that link!

 

[oldfogey]

I have been following this thread off and on, but never read the bishop’s statement. Thank you, Lux, you have done us all a great service. The events, as outlined by the bishop, convinced me that these events are something that I could never accept. In fact, the seers’ claims are ludricous on their face.

I hope the Pope takes care of this forcefully.

 

[Eliza10]

Lux_et_veritas:

Eliza, I am baffled as to why you refuse to read the book…written by Michael Davies. Your posts would clearly indicate you have not included this book in your list of readings to get a balanced view.

I am not refusing to read it. The two books i read - skimmed - I just stumbled across. Because of arguments against Medj., particularly yours, I am read “cautiously”, with discernement.

I just like to take my time consider things. i haven’t refuted your arguments here. I have only reserved judgment as yet.

You are right, to get a balanced view I would have to read the book and I’ll reserve judgemnt until I do.

Lux_et_veritas:

… it is the local Ordinary, the Bishop, the one whose opinion should be respected and sought out first, above any others…

I just have to say that personally, upholding the “local ordinary” on the basis of just that is not something that really motivates me.

Perhaps this is a fault on my part. But it is a result of having a particular longtime local ordinary here in Rochester. The evident fruits of his tenure bring me profound sadness. Diosean employees who parrot “It doesn’t matter what Church (i.e., Catholic or Protestant) you belong to, as long as you believe in God.” Parish Administrators who refer to God as “She” and open a retreat in a native American spirituality prayers - but no “Hail Mary”. The latter also gave a homily where expressed her hope she could tell a young girl that she could in fact be a Catholic priest when she grew up. Repeatedly, I see Catholic parishoners who say “My beliefs are between me and God, not any man-made religion”. Couples living together without marriage going up to recieve communion every week. These two latter types are those who go to Mass week after week and there is nothing and noone there to ever give them any idea they are wrong. Whose fault is this? In my opinion, it all goes back to our “local ordinary”!

So you see, this may not be right, but it is natural for me, from this, my own experience, to have little confidence in “local ordinaries” - just on that basis alone.

Of course i realize that every local ordinary is different. As to the one to whom you are referring, I only know what you tell me about him.

Lux_et_veritas:

… The book explains Laurentin’s reactions when confronted with having only shared with his readers the favorable portion of those taped manuscripts…

Yes, that would be telling.

Lux_et_veritas:

…

. expelled …by a direct command of Pope John Paul II. Father Vego seduced a nun… and when she became pregnant they both left the religious life and began to live together near Medjugorje where their child was born. They now have two children. But prior to this, Father Vego refused to accept his expulsion and continued to celebrate Mass, administer the sacraments, and pass the time with his mistress.

As to the part highlighted in red, its not surprising because its seems when people fall into sexual sin what follows is they also consider themselves their own judge and jury and make up their own rules.

Lux_et_veritas:
Why mention such a distasteful event? …the seers claimed that Our Lady appeared to them on 13 occasions stating that Father Vego was innocent, that he was as entitled to celebrate Mass as any other priest, and that the bishop was harsh! …

Well that is definately not how Our Lady would respond. Did all the seers say She said this?

Lux_et_veritas:

…

Our Lady is alleged to have spoken…“Ivica is not guilty. Have him keep the faith even if he is expelled. I do not cease to repeat, “peace, peace, peace,” and in the meantime agitation increases. He is not guilty (Our Lady repeated this three times). The bishop does not keep order. That is why he is responsible…”

I wonder how a pro-Medj. person responds to this? For those of us not privvy to the details of this, it certainly sounds plausible that a priest might be falsely accused, and that a bishop does not keep order. But if all is as you say here, then of course only demon-imposter of Our Lady could say what is said here.

 

[Eliza10]

Lux_et_veritas:

Eliza, what is so sad, is that you won’t take the time to read what is fully available online - the book endorsed by Bishop Peric, the Ordinary of Mostar Duvno.

I will read it sometime. Probably not online. I have not ever read a book online. My computer is new. I don’t try many new things on because I don’t know much about computers and don’t have anyone who can help me out of messes I might get into by experimenting. A book might jam up a lot of space - and what if I needed to free-up space? I don’t know how. So thats why I don’t consider downloading an entire book. I really need the computer to pay bills and for my sons homework and I like it for the few emails I write and as a reference library, and having that become unavailable to me would be an extra crisis I don’t need.

Lux_et_veritas:

That refusal, to humbly follow the suggestion of this Bishop, is itself a fruit of Medjugorje, and it is not a good fruit. Blowing him off, of all people, in favor of Laurentin, Rupcic, any of the “Seers”, or anyone else, who in someway contradicts the local Ordinary, is a real sad testimony which only bolsters what many of us are saying about how followers of Medjugorje treat the Catholic Church (by virtue of how they treat the Bishop, if only blowing him off).

I hope you see i am not blowing him off and that I can hardly be a fruit of Medjugorje, having not been there, only seen some good fruit of it. I don’t know anything at all about Laurentin. Nothing. i am withholding my judgement of the seers. But I will keep in mind that it seems disrespectful to the Catholic Chruch to not give this Bishop some of my time by looking into and considering what he has said.

Lux_et_veritas:

Never blow off a local Ordinary.

I would be interested in your opinion of what I stated in the above post about my local ordinary, and how you would reconcile that if it had been your experience.

Lux_et_veritas:

…after emailing him my apology and receiving an email back three days later, with him asking me to read his speech …I felt obligated to do so and I am very glad I did. …

I admire your sense of truth and justice with which you have gone about this whole afffair.

Lux_et_veritas:

Please consider following his advice, in humble obedience, to simply read these three things, then come back and tell me point by point, which of these facts are wrong and why. Generalizations just don’t cut it when seeking the truth.

Yes, i will do that at some point, for certain. Its a big controversy, one I want to be sure to give fair consideration to before making ajudgment. The info you mention here would be essential to coming to a balanced conclusion on the matter.

If i were to adopt yor view i would need also to reconcile the really holy people I know who have been profoundly affected towards personal holiness who were touched by Medjugorje. Haven’t you met any such as these? How do you reconcile it with your view?

Lux_et_veritas:

I regret that you feel this thread is somehow hurtful. However, consider that sometimes the truth is painful and maybe that is where the hurt comes in. We can never hide the truth on the basis of being charitable. To do so, to hide truth, is to be uncharitable in itself.

I don’t think its personally hurtful. Yes, you are right, the truth can hurt. I know it. But it also sets you free. That doesn’t hurt.

Lux_et_veritas:

I see one pattern in many of your posts. You are chasing, chasing, chasing (the next phenomena). When do you finally stop chasing and simply rest in the peace of our Lord through the Sacraments and devotions richly given to us through the Catholic Church?

Seek comfort in Him, and in Him alone. Pray for a level of faith that does not require phenomena - that’s where it’s at.

With prayers…

Well, i really don’t think I am a phenomena chaser. I do come across it, and when I do I think it interests me as much as it does anyone. I think I look at it with reserved judgment and trust in God to show me what is true and what is not. And it seems He is always faithful when I desire to really want to know the truth of a thing. Yes, as we know also in the message of Medjugorje (what I know of it) and other visionaries, approved and not, our peace and rest comes in Christ through the Sacraments and the devotions of the Church.

 

[Eliza10]

Lux_et_veritas:

I will add this for consideration Eliza:

To get at truth, you have to stop generalizations and get into hard facts, many of which were awfully painful for me because I lived there for over 2 years and personally knew many of the players.

This fact-finding makes the conversation objective (factual) and not subjective (full of emotion, opinion, and inuendo). I, like you, was blasting anyone on another board who spoke in any way against Medjugorje. After all, the Franciscans were my friends, and I counted Fr. Jozo among them and no one was going to bad mouth him in front of me. It took discovering facts found in bona fide church documents to uncover the truth and realize I had fallen, quite sinfully, into prideful support. I apologized to the man who had hit me over the head with a factual baseball bat, driving me to seek out the truth. I owe him a great deal, and I owe the grace of God a great deal for making me come to a humble conclusion. The devil is incapable of humility, and the self is not inclined to it due to original sin…

I have to say, I think there is a time for generalzaiton, and for getting the general feel of a subject. Discerning attitudes, tones, emotions and questioning motivations - these are a part of the judgement of a thing. The facts of course cannot be left out and weigh strongest. But both are important. Also, I think i am not blasting anyone. I am not as passionate on the subject as you. It makes sense for you as you were quite personally involved in the matter. But it has been enlightening to read why you have arrived at what you have arrived at, and it does seem to speak truth. So I don’t discount it in any way. I just now am stuck at some point having to reconcile it with the good fruit I have seen. It seems like to me it is an invstigation just beginning, and to you it is one finished.

 

[GoldenArrow]

This may be drifting a wee bit …

I was reading a Catholic Online paper today that spoke of another schism forming in the church—the liberals, instead of conservatives. These liberals don’t like what Pope Benedict says regarding homosexuals, divorce, and birth control, so they’ve broken away under direction of a schismatic American Bishop. They attract new members by advertising themselves as a Vatican-free Catholic Church. So sad.

I have observed one commonality between splinter groups, and it is this: disregarding obedience.

The devil is chewing away at the dogma of obedience. He’s done it slowly by creating distrust of the priests and bishops, placing the the masses of many parishes at odds with their ecclesiastical superiors and with the teachings of the Church in general.

He’s using the same tactic in Medjugorje. I’m afraid if the Pope rules against this, it’ll cause another schism because many people would rather follow the rules of their own conscience than obey.

The devil wages his war against obedience at the most basic level of society: the family. We have a whole generation of children (at least in the US) being raised knowing little, if any, discipline. If a child doesn’t recognize authority in his own home, he won’t recognize authority in God. He will only recognize the authority of his own conscience.

The problem is deep seated, and probably belongs in Apologetics, but this is an observation I’ve made that also relates to Medjugorje. People don’t like being told what to do and don’t the idea of others expecting them to obey. Like it or not, obedience is a measure of your Catholocity–a measure of loyalty. And loyalty comes from the heart. Often, it is a sacrifice.

Are we nearing the End of the End days? I don’t know. Maybe or maybe not. More likely we have a several hundred years to go.

I am willing to bet that once the sifting’s been done, the ones remaining in the basket are the ones who obey their Local Ordinaries in union with the Pope. This will be the least common demoninator that determines who belongs to the real “Faithful Remnant.”

The real “Faithful Remnant” are members of the Church Militant section of the Body of Christ, who perserveres under the leadership of their Local Ordinaries in union with the Holy Father, who is now Pope Benedict XVI. The real Faithful Remnant places their faith NOT in visionaries or apparitions, but in the leadership of the ones that Jesus Christ has chosen as Apostles to lead His flock on Earth. The real Faithful Remnant derive their strength not from the hidden knowlege given to them by visionaries, but from the Word of God as spoken in the Bible, from the Sacraments, from Sacred Traditions and Dogmas. The real Faithful Remnant value sacrifice and obedience as precious gems of love for God alone. The real Faithful Remnant deny themselves.

I am afraid there are, each passing day, fewer and fewer REAL Faithful Remnant around.

If would be WONDERFUL if Pope Benedict wrote an encyclical on the meaning of Ecclesiastical Obedience. This is an issue that needs to be resurrected amongst the active throught of the Church before the lambs stray out of sight of their shepherds.

God Bless!

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Eliza,

I definitely want to comment about the Bishop of Rochester as I have been keeping tabs on the situation there, through threads and articles.

First, I empathize with the situation there. It is not a good one. The Bishop there will continue to be the subject of ongoing prayers as I believe he is terribly misguided in much of what he does. However, if someone were to claim to be seeing the BVM in his diocese, and if he followed the Church’s guidelines on apparition discernment and found serious error and violation of those guidelines and personally condemned it, then we would need to respect that very seriously. Why? Because Jesus promised us he would not allow His Church to be led astray so the Bishop, by virtue of his position and the gravity of such a thing in how it can harm the faithful, would not allow us to be duped. The Church give the Ordinary this task of discernment.

One might point to Sr. Faustina or Padre Pio in how they were treated by their local Ordinaries and how the local Ordinary may have been totally against these authenticated person’s graced extraordinarily. How could a Bishop do this if they were legitimate. I think there is a logical explanation. It is not uncommon for the saints to have gone through extraordinary trials which displays the extraordinary grace they are given. This often involves persecution from within the Church, but not always. We would never have realized just how Holy Padre Pio were, if he had disobeyed his local Ordinary and continued to say Mass publicly when it was forbidden for him - for 15 years. He humbly accepted this and as is the case with most saints, a source of mortification and sacrifice to be offered up much like a prayer.

For Sr. Faustina, Jesus told her it did not matter what he told her that obeying her superiors was far more important than obeying Him and He put her to the test. Maybe someone else can recall the test and explain it, but she passed with flying colors because she obeyed her Mother Superior even though it went against something that would have pleased Jesus. As long as the person is not being asked to do something which contradicts Catholic teaching or morality, God holds greater respect for obedience to superiors. Why? It takes tremendous humility and control over personal pride we all have through concupisence (sp?). Pride is an imperfection at the least and very sinful at the most. One way to look at saints is perfection. And, in the history of those who have been declared to have authentic visions or stigmata, their perfection was noted to be extraordinary, which is why many were declared saints.

Even lying about having a smoke as most teens would do, is an imperfection and a solid reason for a bishop to have suspicion over authenticity. It broke his heart because, as Bishop Zanic once said, “What bishop would not want an authentic apparition taking place in his backyard?”. What a source of grade for the people. In Fatima and Lourdes, we do not hear of such scandalous events following the seers or even among the followers. Sure, there are opportunists who will try to exploit, but nothing to the level we’ve seen with Medjugorje, right to the point of attacking the bishop.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

Continuing…

Here is one example of an attack by a prominent Medjugorje supporters website, my comments in brackets.

I heard the local bishop is against Medjugorje.

True! It is important to first state that the priests serving in Medjugorje are appointed by the bishop and that they are all under obedience [then how do we explain the large numbers expelled by their order and by the Pope himself?].

With that said, the replacement for Bishop Zanic, who was in power at the time the apparitions began, was Bishop Ratko Peric. Bishop Ratko worked closely with Bishop Zanic for years, and it was no surprise that he held, and still holds, the same negative opinion of Medjugorje [because it came about through discernment, using the 1978 Vatican criteria and perhaps someone can link to it as I am limited on my time].

Bishop Ratko does not believe in any apparitions of Our Lady including Fatima and Lourdes. [Source? This is detraction at the least, and potential calumny if it is false as they are reporting it as if he is obligated to believe in those private revelations, which he is not].

With this information known, it would seem unlikely that he would believe in Our Lady’s apparitions in his own diocese. [More speculation based on a lack of studying hard facts into all that went into discernment by Zanic, then Peric]. The Bishop is reported to have never investigated Medjugorje, never spoken with or interviewed the visionaries, and visits Medjugorje only rarely for Confirmations and official functions [A review of diocesan documents and manuscripts - all available in the Davies book, in full, will reveal how calumnous this statement is[/color]. This is a prime example of what “inuendo” or speculation looks like - something not allowed in courts. It is subjective. Only facts (objective) are allowed and this site does not provide facts, it provides much inuendo, fully fueling and arming people against the Bishop. I should know - I fell for it about a year ago before coming to my senses through the grace of God.]

But with this said, the important issue here is that Bishop Ratko Peric does not have authority over the final decision on Medjugorje. This responsibility still rests with the commission of Bishops [The former Yugoslav Bishops commission voted against Medjugorje 34-2, if I recall my numbers correctly. The new Bosnia Hercegovina commission is made up strongly of those who opposed Medjugorje in that prior commission. I believe there are only a small number now and all, or the majority have expressed disbelief. By all means, they should have another commission]. The local Bishop’s negative comments about Medjugorje were addressed directly in 1998 by the Holy See in a letter to his Excellency Mons. Gilbert Aubry, Bishop of Saint-Denis de la Reunion. The letter states that Bishop Peric’s position on Medjugorje is his personal opinion, which he is entitled to as local Bishop, but his opinion does not reflect the official position of the Church. The URL for this letter is Newletter.htm

But, of course it is one thing to hold a neutral opinion and wait for further clarification, and quite another to go through a highly calumnous set of statements to detract against the local Ordinary. Even his personal opinion, from a pastoral point of view, should be respected for the reasons I stated in my previous post. It is the more virtuous path, as opposed to following personal opinion over that of the Bishop.

The above comes from a website, which I choose not to promote, by virtue of supplying the link, as it was only one example from that site of just how distorted their “FAQ’s” are. It is one of the most popular sites for Medjugorje supporters. The spreading of such untruths is itself just another fruit of Medjugorje.

As far as the book goes, I simply clicked “open”, then I printed some 15 pages at a time every few days. But, I had also did a “save as” to a MS Word document 6.0. This made it easy and it takes little space.

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

How to deal with others? Yes, I have had to do this. I am in formation with Secular Carmelites and one invited me to a Medjugorje prayer service. I smiled and told her that I regret I simply cannot bring myself to believe the BVM would appearing to these people in light of facts I have learned through official diocesan documents, which removed the subjectivism and emotionalism that fuels the movement. She disagreed with me and I did not argue, but she knows where I stand and I did not compromise Truth. I will be here for her with any facts she wants, should she ever decide to ask, but it was clear to me that she was firm in her belief so I left her to it. We talk and converse, but not about that.

As Fr. John Corapi once said, with regards to priests preaching the fullness of the faith and in truth, “I’m not going to hell for anybody”. Using charity as an excuse to spare people the pain of truth can get you hell - it is called a sin of omission. Telling people an untruth is one thing, but very similar is withholding the truth when we know it and see an opportunity for sharing what we have learned - all done in charity of course.

This simply means we cannot compromise truth to spare others, or ourselves, the pain associated with it. There is nothing “against” Medjugorje in reporting facts and countering the vast amount of calumnous misinformation being spread by supporters, some of whom don’t even understand the difference between subjective and objective information. Their good intentions do not mean the act is no less immoral. The end does not justify the means. Consequentialism and proportionalism have been condemned by Pope John Paul II in Veritatis Splendor. Our consciences must be properly formed and this is our obligation. To neglect proper formation is wrong in itself if it is done to avoid pain or to simply not want to bother, as was my case for some time. I didn’t want to know.

I had to deal with the pain and that is why, when I finally realized what was happening, and how many people I passed that errant information along to in forums and in person, I knew I had but one next move: Confession. This countered the pride, and I had this confession face to face. I countered the pride a second time by making this thread and it was difficult, but the only way I felt I could repay some of the debt for having spread untruth. I had harmed the reputation of a Bishop whose job it is to discern and provide pastoral help to people entering his diocese. I not only blew him off in favor of theologians like Laurentin, I had spoken against him, causing others to think negatively of him. That is called the sin of detraction. All I could think of was, “God help me and have mercy if it is You leading the Bishop to stand so vehemently against this phenomena”. I would later come to learn through viewing facts, that there is simply no way I could support the notion the BVM is appearing there based on the lack of virtue in the seers (viewing documented facts held in diocesan documents, not how they appear in public as sweet, humble and prayerful).

Such sinfulness, as I engaged in, is rooted in pride. Pride to hold my opinion over that of a member of the Church whose job it is to discern, and who himself has spoken pastorally on the subject.

When I have time, I’ll try to find the new bishops commission there and supply what has been written about their past positions. The best thing that can happen for the Church is for a new commission meeting on the subject. The worst thing for Medjguorje is a new commission meeting on the subject. Supporters cling to the viewpoints of the two dissenting bishops of that original commission. What about the other 30+?

 

[Eliza10]

In reply to Goldenarrows concerns, in some ways it seems more like an “anticipatory” problem than a real one at this point. Of the various people I know who are in some way touched by Medjugorje i would say perhaps all would “back off” if our Pope clearly ruled on it. I see your point (and Diane’s) that it in essence has been ruled on, by virtue of the local bishop. But most followers don’t see it that way and think its okay not to. Ultimately only God knows the hearts and knows who is in fact being disobedient about it. I am remembering this line from “Man for all Seasons” of Thomas More (perhaps he actually said this) “And when we die, and you are sent to heaven for doing your conscience, and I am sent to hell for not doing mine, will you come with me, for fellowship?”

 

[Eliza10]

Diane, thanks of taking your time with all that and I do see your point. As I said, i will look into it further. I am still left wondering aobut the good fruit of Medjugorje. As it is alleged that Paul John Paul II said it is the spiritual heart of the world, it truly seems to be in many ways. Of course, I realize it is only alleged he said that. Its also alleged he said positive things of it. Perhaps he was doing what Paul said, and finding a point of agreement with people. Perhaps he is thinking of what is true and right and beautiful about it. Perhaps that what a lot of others are doing.

Well i will soon be offline for Lent. I find in winter I get more active on the computer, it becomes a habit, and giving it up for Lent is a noticable sacrifice for me. So just about three more days to write anything we want to say on this topic for now.

 

[LukeQ]

Eliza - It is speculative as to what the future holds. However, from my experience as:

• once being a believer in Medj. and other false apparitions and now as a supporter of the Church’s offical teaching;
• observations;
• and study of offical documents,
  many believers in Medj. are also believers in various other non approved or condemmed apparitions and locutions. It is a tight web where “believers” don’t seem to distinguish between authentic public revelation from the Magisterium, approved private revelation and non approved or condemned private revelation. Medj. seers support “Poem of the Man God” which was put on the Church’s Prohibited Book List in the 1950’s and it also supports the Marian Movement of Priests, (MMP), which in turn supports Medj, the condemned apparitions of Garabandal and many other lesser know fraudulent apparitions. The seer Ivan, supports and participates in a prayer group when visiting Sydney, Australia dedicated to the heretical beliefs put forward in Luisa Piccarretta’s “Kingdom of the Divine Will” (KDW) of which Volumes 2,3 & 4 were also put on the prohibited Book list back in 1938 and never removed.

Garabandal, MMP, KDW and Medjugorie present end times interpretations that condition believers into thinking they are the remnant, “the chosen ones”, not disimilar to dooms day cults. An elitist mentality like this is problematic at the very least and can lead to rebellion from within the Church, particularly if their group is formally ruled against - this may flag for them the start of the fulfilment of their false prophecies.

I don’t have the reference on me at the moment but the Church when discerning an appartion, looks firstly at the facts and then at the fruit. Fruit cannot be foundational to Facts. The Facts must represent truth first, then the fruits are examined. As I mentioned earlier, Masonic Hospitals do good work but Free Masonary is an adversary organisation to the Church. The exitence of their good works in caring for the sick does not suffice to re-evaluate their contradictions to the Catholic Faith.

Luke

Luke

 

[GoldenArrow]

Luisa Piccarretta’s “Kingdom of the Divine Will” (KDW) of which Volumes 2,3 & 4 were also put on the prohibited Book list back in 1938 and never removed

Um … I practice Divine Will.

Though I’d LOVE to teach it, I am bound by obedience not to, for the CDF and the Archbishops of Trani have jointly declared that no one is allowed to teach Divine Will in the United States, except Father Bucci.

This is the most comprehensive update on Divine Will is here, revised as of 2005: ewtn.com/expert/answers/luisa_piccarreta.htm

Luisa Picarretta has been greatly wronged by the Divine Will promoters in the US. The Center for the Divine Will in Jacksonville has been promoting Medjugorje, and believe you me, I chewed them up one side and down the other for it! I am RED HOT flaming angry that the folks in Jacksonville keep mailing me Medugorje messages!

I’ve read a fair amount from the Book of Heaven, the Hours of the Passion and a little from the Kingdom of the Virgin Mary in the Divine Will. (The volumes I possess have a statement of Ecclesiastical Approbation). I needed to convince myself this was not heresy, so I’ve backtracked to reading what other mystics have said about the Interior Life.

The Interior Life is described by St. John of the Cross as being three stages: Purgative, Illuminitive, and Unitive. St Therese of Avila describes it in Seven Mansions. I’m reading a book by Arintero called The Song of Songs: A mystical Exposition. This book provides a verse by verse examination of the Canticle of Canticles as seen from the mystics. All of the stuff that seemed to read as heresy in Picarretta’s writings was basically repeated by the other mystics, including St. John of the Cross and St. Therese of Avila. The only difference I’ve found thus far between Picarretta and the others is that she focuses mainly on the Unitive Stage and on the Seventh Mansion, the Betrothal.

I’ll say no more beyond that. Please don’t ask me to debate this because debate can quickly turn into teaching, and I’m not allowed to teach it. There is a very strict, and new, gag order in effect, as of 2005. The reason for the gag order is: the CDF wants no more interference by DW people in Luisa Picarretta’s beatification process. I agree with them.

This is for me a great sacrifice, but it pleases me to obey God’s Will, expressed through the Bishops. If the CDF one day declares all of Luisa’s writings as condemned, I will, without hesitation or delay, burn all of them! Luisa would do the same. She would NOT have approved of the behavior of the Divine Will promoters in the US, nor would she approve of the disobedient whackos who’ve distorted her writings.

The one thing that draws me to Picarretta was her blind obedience of her confessor and Local Ordinary. She would never have followed Medjugorje for the very same reason I will never follow it: obedience.

Basically, the Unitive stage of the Interior life is incompatible with disobedience to ecclesiastical authority. Those who think otherwise are deluding themselves.

 

[LukeQ]

This is getting off the topic but I will attempt to answer.

The EWTN link you provide on the status of Divine Will does not say the books were taken off the Forbidden Book List. Rather, it says a Nihil Obstat was granted to the cause of Luisa Piccaretta’s Beatification, not to the 36 Volumes. May it also be noted that an eventual cannonisation of a Saint is not an endorsement of his/he writings, rather a recognition that they are indeed in Heaven.

I am interested in who granted the Ecclesiastical Approbation of your volumes. I am no Cannon Law expert but the Holy See’s ruling of 1938 would over rule an Imprimator of a local Bishop and even the Nihil Obstat of a cannonised saint. I would say that the CDF is the only body that could change the Volume’s status in this regard since its former office, The Holy See is the originator of the currently held 1938 status.

The CDF currently has the Volumes under their consideration and none of the 36 volumes are allowed to be published.

I agree with you totally regarding Jacksonville.

Regarding your studies of the Mystics to clarify your thoughts on KDW, the key to it is the understanding of “Unitive”. KDW appears to be more consistant with the Heresy of Quietism which is a supression of the Human Will in favour of the Divine Will. That is not unifying.

This really does deserve its own thread but I believe that in time the CDF will make a ruling.

Luke

 

[4HisChurch]

LukeQ:

Garabandal, MMP, KDW and Medjugorie present end times interpretations that condition believers into thinking they are the remnant, “the chosen ones”, not disimilar to dooms day cults. An elitist mentality like this is problematic at the very least and can lead to rebellion from within the Church, particularly if their group is formally ruled against - this may flag for them the start of the fulfilment of their false prophecies.

I don’t have the reference on me at the moment but the Church when discerning an appartion, looks firstly at the facts and then at the fruit. Fruit cannot be foundational to Facts. The Facts must represent truth first, then the fruits are examined. As I mentioned earlier, Masonic Hospitals do good work but Free Masonary is an adversary organisation to the Church. The exitence of their good works in caring for the sick does not suffice to re-evaluate their contradictions to the Catholic Faith.

Luke

This is exactly what I have seen in people I know who are ardent followers of unapproved apparitions. The whole idea that they are “the remnant” to the exclusion of anyone who doesn’t believe in these “visionaries”, including the various bishops, the end times craziness etc. Facts first, then fruits.