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TofuFish
Guest
I think the takeaway is not to criticize and be upset at the success of these Protestant churches. I think the takeaway is that Catholics must triple their efforts to evangelize.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
sure, how many have done that? Most of these draw other already Christians from their prior church. If Catholic, did they not convert them into darkness, at least potentially?.
too many, for sure. The same poll stated that the Georgetown poll shown a steady to slight increase to 62M.
well, I’d like to see how they define that term first.
Megachurch, as defined by wiki:
A megachurch is an American term for a Protestant church having 2,000 or more people in average weekend attendance.[1][2][3] The Hartford Institute’s database lists more than 1,300 such Protestant churches in the United States; according to that data, approximately 50 churches on the list have average attendance exceeding 10,000, with the highest recorded at 47,000 in average attendance.[4] While 3,000 individual Catholic parishes (churches) have 2,000 or more attendants for an average Sunday Mass, these churches are not seen as part of the megachurch movement.[5]
How many people attend the Mass with you packed to the gills? And how many Masses does your parish have on a Sunday? Your probably closer to 8000.
sure, if you define protestant as anyone Christian and not Catholic, but many here who are Anglican, Lutheran, Evangelical, Pentecostal, Non Denom, Charismatic etc don’t label themselves under that catchall, so I’m not sure its valid
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Fritz6976
Guest
LOLI have a complaint against this church too! It’s members clog up the Souplantation across the street every Sunday morning and I’ve got to wait forever to get my Sunday Brunch!!!
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AbideWithMe
Guest
I listened to your recording from a guest speaker, who I think is a college professor from Ozark Christian College, but not a pastor. He made one sloppy but simple, honest mistake, in forgetting that Cephas/Peter’s original name was Simon barJonah. That is so easily corrected by anyone, even a child who can read, that it’s hardly worth getting yourself twisted up about it; it’s not like the speaker was deliberately misrepresenting something that’s hard to verify or correct. Apart from a single sloppy mistake, I don’t see why a Catholic would get upset about what Mark Moore said there—he spoke positively about tradition and the need to preserve what was received from eye witnesses.
I’d be curious, if other Catholics have listened to your recording, if they also find the overall point Dr. Moore is making to be annoying or upsetting.
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JustaServant
Guest
I haven’t listened to it, but from what people are describing, it doesn’t sound like anything too outrageous. Believe me I have heard FAR worse in my years in fundamentalism. Not blasphemy, just really jaw-droppingly stupid things said from the pulpit.
This doesn’t sound like one of those cases.
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AbideWithMe
Guest
Thanks for your (name removed by moderator)ut, JustaServant. It’s only a couple of minutes for Fritz’s recording, so if you or any other Catholic does listen to it, I’d still be curious to know if the speaker’s point seems objectionable.
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Church_Militant
Guest
I have to agree. I looked at the OPs link and I think he’s over reacted a bit by calling it a lie, when in fact it’s just a pretty severe case of lack of scholarship.
It seems to me that the OP is reacting to over exposure to that kind of bad teaching. Having been subjected to some similar stuff (as you also were) I can completely understand his feelings but I think he sort of defeats his own purpose with his polemics.
In my experience it is always better to simply show the error in the context of the Bible and authentic scholarship. When one shows the flaws and errors in their “Biblical teaching” then those who follow them have to handle the confrontation between what the Bible really teaches and what the man they have been listening to has told them. That’s where the Holy Spirit always breaks through with the truth and conversion can take place. This is our only real hope.
Here’s some examples of my own efforts.
- Refutation: Mike Gendron’s “Why Can’t Born Again Christians Remain in the Catholic Church?”
- Response to Hard Questions to Ask Good Catholics (By Mike Gendron)
- Refuting anti-Catholic tract: “Rome vs The Bible” by Mike Gendron
- Refuting: “Is a Catholic Christian an Oxymoron?”
- Refuting Mike Gendron’s tract “Are You Being Deceived?”
- Response & Refutation: Mike Gendron’s “Why Can’t Born Again Christians Remain in the Catholic Church?”
- Refuting Mike Gendron’s ‘Another Jesus?”
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benhur
Guest
Hey, I know it is not the East but the “Valley” but I am wondering if there a lot of ex-catholics attending? Back here (northeast) half my church is ex catholic.
Sorry to hear their critiques may not be totally accurate.
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Fritz6976
Guest
“Let’s take a look at Dr. Moores Bio from his own website :
Dr Mark Moore was a professor of New Testament at Ozark Christian Collegefrom 1990-2012, receiving a PhD from the University of Wales (2008) for his work on the politics of Jesus. In 2012 he has accepted the role of Teaching Pastor of Christ’s Church of the Valley in Phoenix, AZ. Mark has authored a number of books, mostly on the Life of Christ (also Acts and Revelation).”
So your telling me that a guy with 12 years of teaching the new testament and having a PhD made a simple mistake like that. Yes I agree that it is not a big deal but don’t say that he didn’t purposely tell a false hood like that, as if he was some 17 year old sunday school teacher.
And that clip was only 2min, I sat through an hour of stuff just like that recording.
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Fritz6976
Guest
I think the church is 80% ex-Catholics. From what was said at there bible study I attended,.
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SyroMalankara
Guest
with ‘scholarship’ of the caliber you mention, is it any wonder this shows up in wiki:
Ozark Christian is listed as the worst buy in education in nearly the entire United States, Ozark Christian College was ranked number ten on the Forbes list of colleges with the worst return on investment. The report lists the four-year cost for attending Ozark as $78,000 and the 30-year return on investment as -$76,200
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MartinJordan
Guest
Jesus: Simon, you shall be called Cephas. What? Oh your Mother calls you that? Oh man I must do better research then. 
MJ
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JustaServant
Guest
When I lived in a much larger city and was still an evangelical I remember several mainline Protestant churches in a certain section of town complaining thier memberships were dwindling because the local “mega-church” was stealing sheep.
And they had a right to complain.
These tiny Protestant mainline churches could not afford a “million dollar sound system” nor the “hottest acts in town” with “closed circut TV” and internet streaming.
I knew these men. They served God in the best way possible, they taught the Bible, they served their people. They had a modest choir with a piano and organ, they were not on TV with thier “dynamic preaching”, they taught the Word as best they could. The choir sang the best they could.
I felt so sorry for these men, they watched thier young people leave even though they had a youth group. They watched thier older people hang on as best they could until one day the doors closed.
Sorry if I am a little cynical about “mega-churches”, I have seen first hand the type of damage done by them.
Even though I am Catholic now, I feel these tiny mainline churches were serving God in a far greater way than some smoke and mirrors mega-Churches. What did Paul call them? Clanging cymbals?
If I were Protestant again (and there is little chance of that), give me a tiny church with a modest choir, a old piano and an honest pastor anyday over these overblown entertainment centers.
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benhur
Guest
WOW! Thanks.
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TofuFish
Guest
I still think the takeaway is instead of getting upset at megachurches, let’s figure out what they’re doing to attract more members and see how we can adapt those techniques to our parishes.
For example, the average Catholic parish can use much better music. Gregorian chant is beautiful when done by a skilled choir. But let’s face it, the average folk band that most parishes have sucks. And Catholics admit it. Do Catholic schools teach sports at the expense of teaching music? Is that the problem?
You need more money for a nice sound system? Let’s encourage tithing 10% of income, the way Protestant churches do.
How about a nice screen projector so new converts and non-Catholics know what to sing and say during Mass, so we don’t feel so lost all the time?? Some parishes have this and it makes a night-and-day difference.
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Fritz6976
Guest
What we need to do is teach Catholics the fullness of the faith. A lot of them unfortunately are ignorant to what Catholicism is. Alot of them seem to do whatever their parents did but as soon as they walk into a another church that has smoke machines and big lights and cameras and a big motivational style preacher they get mezmorized, it could be teaching a different Gospel but they will still enjoy getting the warm fuzzies from that church, unless they have knowledge of what the fullness of the faith is.
And as for Tithing’s that’s a whole different thread. It is not binding on the New Covenant. we shouldn’t peach something that is not binding on the New Covenant just so we can get money from the parishioners.
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JustaServant
Guest
:newidea:I still think the takeaway is instead of getting upset at megachurches, let’s figure out what they’re doing to attract more members and see how we can adapt those techniques to our parishes.
For example, the average Catholic parish can use much better music. Gregorian chant is beautiful when done by a skilled choir. But let’s face it, the average folk band that most parishes have sucks. And Catholics admit it. Do Catholic schools teach sports at the expense of teaching music? Is that the problem?
You need more money for a nice sound system? Let’s encourage tithing 10% of income, the way Protestant churches do.
How about a nice screen projector so new converts and non-Catholics know what to sing and say during Mass, so we don’t feel so lost all the time?? Some parishes have this and it makes a night-and-day difference.
Heeeey, great idea!
What to call ourselves…hmmm.
:newidea:
I GOT IT!!
We’ll call ourselves EVANGELICALS!!
We’ll turn the barn into a stage, get mom and dad to sell tickets…
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Vanez
Guest
This totufish wants to turn the Catholic Church into a pink pop stadium ahoy - rotterdamI still think the takeaway is instead of getting upset at megachurches, let’s figure out what they’re doing to attract more members and see how we can adapt those techniques to our parishes.
For example, the average Catholic parish can use much better music. Gregorian chant is beautiful when done by a skilled choir. But let’s face it, the average folk band that most parishes have sucks. And Catholics admit it. Do Catholic schools teach sports at the expense of teaching music? Is that the problem?
You need more money for a nice sound system? Let’s encourage tithing 10% of income, the way Protestant churches do.
How about a nice screen projector so new converts and non-Catholics know what to sing and say during Mass, so we don’t feel so lost all the time?? Some parishes have this and it makes a night-and-day difference.
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Norm_The_Robot
Guest
Why would livelier music, and audio visual upgrades turn us into protestants? I noticed that the Catholic Church I visit near work, on my lunch hour, has a BOSE soundsystem. My own parish has a really good 4 piece band at 9:30 mass with a drummer, electric bass, guitar…etc. We also have projection screens to help people follow along with songs, responses, etc. What is so bad about that?:newidea:
Heeeey, great idea!
What to call ourselves…hmmm.
:newidea:
I GOT IT!!
We’ll call ourselves EVANGELICALS!!
We’ll turn the barn into a stage, get mom and dad to sell tickets…
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ltwin
Guest
Well, having attended my fair share of “country club” mainline churches, I can tell you that the problem is not sheep stealing but sheep dying. You heard me. For years, mainline churches all across this country have not been evangelizing, but have instead been depending on historic endowments to keep the doors open and the lights on. They hire preaches who have a seminary degree but no anointing or power in their preaching, witness or Christian life. To top it off, most of these churches don’t want to change ANY of their routines for newer generations. I’m not talking about changing doctrines. Young people to them is an inconvenience to their funeral home church service.
I know that’s a generalization, but it is true from my experience with Methodist, Presbyterian, Episcopal and even “uptown” Southern Baptists. What’s worse, when these churches around here get a preacher who actually preaches the Word and the Holy Spirit uses them to bring conviction to people, the “respectable” church members get offended and force them out. They get replaced by someone who’d rather teach at seminary than actually bring people to salvation.
You are acting as if megachurches start out as megachurches. They don’t. They start out as “tiny” churches with modest preachers, modest music programs, and modest youth programs. Yet, they managed to not only survive but thrive.
If your beloved mainline churches haven’t been able to do that it’s not the fault of the evangelical churches.
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