Mega Church Blunders

[CuriousMike]

Why would livelier music, and audio visual upgrades turn us into protestants? I noticed that the Catholic Church I visit near work, on my lunch hour, has a BOSE soundsystem. My own parish has a really good 4 piece band at 9:30 mass with a drummer, electric bass, guitar…etc. We also have projection screens to help people follow along with songs, responses, etc. What is so bad about that?

We didn’t have BOSE, but we did have a Dummer, electric bass, guitar and for a little while, an old electric organ.

Unfortunately
I have developed distaste for these types of “choirs,” typically the guitar/bass was completely overwhelming, sound system would continually get feedback (the screech) and the leader chose to repeat songs over and over.

Then, we had to listen to loud music in the middle of Communion - Where the music, if any, should be quiet and instrumental. Not loud and overbearing.

Despite many Parishioners begging otherwise, the Leader refused to alter this. Eventually, due to other factor’s I’m not aware, the Choir went into complete disarray in the two weeks I wasn’t at home, and none of the members are at Church anymore. What saddens me is they aren’t in Church, although, I much prefer the quiet and reverence without music, or the more traditional (and quiet) stuff played from the Parish iPad…

During the time this Choir existed, which has been just prior to my first visit to the Parish, I have felt the music is pushing many of our devout away.
Unless its very traditional chant, or just traditional music played at a reverent, respectful volume, I’m not interested. Full stop.

If you witnessed the Crucifixion, would you be standing there bouncing around, (trying to) sing at the top of your lungs? Or would you be on your knees, in prayer?

That point just there, plus this:
At these Mega-Churches, who is the loved and worshiped one? God, Our Father, the “Christian” rock band or the celebrity preacher?

These Churches put too much emphasis on themselves, rather than on God, in my honest opinion. Like those preaching the prosperity gospel (A friend of mine who attended Hillsong in Sydney remarked how they spent about 20 minutes of the service trying to get people to tithe)…

 

[ffg]

This isn’t necessarily a blunder, but a story about how a mega church influenced where we currently live.

I saw online that property on the southeast side of the city was much more reasonable than the north, or west.

Late morning on a Sunday, I was cruising around the city while still living in a hotel after getting my current job, the rest of the family still up in Chicago.

I head toward the southeast side to check it out…Parking lot in the roads.

I was in awe. I called my wife and said, scratch off the southeast, it’s Sunday AM and it’s a parking lot! No wonder housing is cheap.

We bought on the west side of the city.

Later I learn about the mega church from co-workers, and I hit that traffic just right.

Trivia time - Guess the Church and the city! (no hunting for old posts, cheaters! I don’t remember if I’ve ever mentioned where I live) From what I can tell, the Church is not listed yet in this thread, but is one that has a tv show, I think.

Take care,

Mike

 

[spedteacherita]

I’ve read about the “blunder” but why do you think they’re successful? The Word of God is present among the people and is being taught. You all know that Protestant churches are here - ragging on them will not make them go away. I, myself, prefer a small liturgical setting but we have complimented this with contemporary music that is not loud and blasting our ears out.

I’d like to see our Catholic friends at least understand that the Holy Spirit is at work in these churches and in the people who worship there. Dissing them is not going to bring your message to them - remember Christ went to where the sinners were and didn’t wait for them to realize the Truth He was teaching.

I understand this forum is for debate and not to try to bring others to our different faiths but can’t we celebrate our love for the Lord and not downgrade the worship that many people have grown up with and only know about?

So, anyone want to come into the Lion’s Den with me this Sunday? You know I’m just kidding (I hope) but seriously the way the stuff is happening in our world we are headed for the soon return of Jesus and we want to bring as many people as we can with us!

God bless all!
In Jesus’ love,

Rita

 

[SyroMalankara]

An additional statistic… here’s a snapshot from the LATimes 10-12-1990 (note: Catholic Churches are not listed because official weekly attendance is usually not taken):

Answering my own post:
An additional statistic… here’s a snapshot from the LATimes 10-12-1990 (note: Catholic Churches are not listed because official weekly attendance is usually not taken):
articles.latimes.com/1990-10-12/news/mn-2333_1_california-churches

How many of these even exist today? No.9 by weekly attendance has been purchased in a bankruptcy by the RC Diocese of Orange at bargain basement prices.

BIGGEST PROTESTANT CHURCHES

The 10 biggest Protestant churches in America, ranked by average Sunday attendance:

1. First Baptist Church, Hammond, Ind.: 20,000 - now less than 10% remain
2. Willow Creek Community Church, S. Barrington, Ill.: 14,605 - Today boasts 24k weekly attendance, but oddly now closes down for the summer, on Christmas Day, Easter, and other ‘low attendance days’ -
   holyobserver.com/shutdown-willow-creek-community-church-will-close-for-summer/
   beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/Christmas/No-Church-On-Christmas.aspx
3. Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa, Calif.: 12,000 - the Calvary Chapel movement is in disarray following the death of its founder. Many original pastors were fired, others quit, some of the family of Chuck Smith is involved in suing the Chapel, others are disfellowshipped, another runs one or the other chapel. In decline, but not completely dead yet.
4. Thomas Road Baptist Church, Lynchburg, Va.: 11,000 - this one is still going strong, actually better with Jonathan Falwell, expanding from 4000 members when his father Jerry passed.
5. First Assembly of God, Phoenix: 10,000 - now 22,500 - seems to be growing from the 90s but steady at 22-24K now. Prosperity theology, tickles the ears but filled with fluff:
   theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2009/12/did-christianity-cause-the-crash/307764/
   Among mainstream, nondenominational megachurches, where much of American religious life takes place, “prosperity is proliferating” rapidly, says Kate Bowler, a doctoral candidate at Duke University and an expert in the gospel. Few, if any, of these churches have prosperity in their title or mission statement, but Bowler has analyzed their sermons and teachings. Of the nation’s 12 largest churches, she says, three are prosperity—Osteen’s, which dwarfs all the other megachurches; Tommy Barnett’s, in Phoenix; and T. D. Jakes’s, in Dallas. In second-tier churches—those with about 5,000 members—the prosperity gospel dominates. Overall, Bowler classifies 50 of the largest 260 churches in the U.S. as prosperity. The doctrine has become popular with Americans of every background and ethnicity; overall, Pew found that 66 percent of all Pentecostals and 43 percent of “other Christians”—a category comprising roughly half of all respondents—believe that wealth will be granted to the faithful.

Is this the Evangelion of Jesus and the next world, or of Caesar in this world?

Even some ‘evangelicals’ can see through this (from the article): “THEOLOGICALLY, THE PROSPERITY GOSPEL has always infuriated many mainstream evangelical pastors. Rick Warren, whose book The Purpose Driven Life outsold Osteen’s, told Time, “This idea that God wants everybody to be wealthy? There is a word for that: baloney. It’s creating a false idol. You don’t measure your self-worth by your net worth. I can show you millions of faithful followers of Christ who live in poverty. Why isn’t everyone in the church a millionaire?” In 2005, a group of African American pastors met to denounce prosperity megapreachers for promoting a Jesus who is more like a “cosmic bellhop,” as one pastor put it, than the engaged Jesus of the civil-rights era who looked after the poor.”

1. North Phoenix Baptist Church, Phoenix: 9,500 - there is a monumental drop in numbers in 2013, unless this is a mistake:
   thomrainer.com/2013/01/26/largest-churches-in-the-southern-baptist-convention/
   According to this, NPBC only has 1,600 weekly attendance.
2. Chapel in University Park, Akron, Ohio: 8,700 - this church is down to 5,000 total including 2 satellites, according to :
   ohio.com/news/local/the-rev-tim-armstrong-elected-new-pastor-of-the-chapel-1.485724
3. Second Baptist Church, Houston: 8,500 - according to the earlier link, this church is up to 25,221 weekly (some say total membership is 65,000)
   thomrainer.com/2013/01/26/largest-churches-in-the-southern-baptist-convention/
   It remains to be seen how it will survive after a very recent scandal (I won’t post it, it is easily googled). Too early to tell how much an outfall there will be.
4. Grace Community Church, Sun Valley, Calif.: 8,000 - stable at 8,200 the last few years, however supposed had weekly attendance of 20,000 in the 80s:
   articles.orlandosentinel.com/1985-06-14/lifestyle/0300430068_1_church-and-state-grace-community-church-church-in-sun
   Although the lawsuit was dismissed citing religious freedom, they had 20,000 members before getting sued for claiming that “church counselors, untrained in psychology or psychiatry, professed to have a supernatural ‘gift’ for counseling” and could treat victims of ‘‘mania, manic depression, nervous breakdowns, suicidal tendencies, schizophrenia and demonic possession.’’
5. Mt. Paran Church of God, Atlanta: 7,850 - now claims 11,000 members and is going strong.

 

[SyroMalankara]

The 10 biggest Protestant churches in California, ranked by average Sunday attendance:

1. Calvary Chapel, Costa Mesa: 12,000 - see above
2. Grace Community Church, Sun Valley: 8,000 - see above
3. Harvest Christian Fellowship, Riverside: 7,700 - now 12,000
   harvest.org/media/watch/why-israel-matters.html
   This is what passes for theology and Christianity in these circles… political Zionism and the ‘divine patriotism’
   wnd.com/2015/05/why-israel-matters/
   I would laugh, if it wasn’t so tragic
4. Calvary Chapel, Downey: 7,500 - they claim between 8,000 and ‘more than 9,000 today’; also see above:
   ccdowney.com/information/history/
   During the late 1960’s, Jeff Johnson was a surfing, opium-smoking hippie, following drug guru Timothy Leary, and living on the North Shore of the Hawaiian island of Oahu. Caught in the turmoil of the 60s as an adolescent, he attempted to fill the inner void and restlessness he felt with drugs, sex, parties, and surfing. … (continued)…
   In May of 1973, Jeff Johnson became part of what was to become Calvary Chapel of Downey. Its beginning was in the unlikely location of Furman Park. By May of 1978, only five years after his start of a small fellowship. The Lord blessed Jeff with a fantastic facility, as big as six football fields.
   I don’t know but if this is a bit of embellishment or what - I wouldn’t be comfortable handing a church to a late60s bigitme drug abuser/Buddhist/Hindu/etc - turned early 70s pastor? Is that considered the ‘Biblical model’ or something by CalvaryC?
   adherents.com/largecom/calvary.html
   “Then there was Jeff Johnson himself, our leader, who would tell us that before converting to Christianity and while tripping on acid, the devil appeared to him in a tent in the jungles of Hawaii, and, Johnson insisted, granted him the power to control the elements. After experimenting with the flies in his tent–making them do backflips with the power of his mind–he wandered to a cliff overlooking the ocean. There he summoned a tsunami that drowned all the sunbathers on the beach. He did not tell this story as that of an imagined vision during a bad trip, but as an event that he apparently believes actually took place, an occurrence so unsettling that he had no choice but to turn to Jesus to escape the devil’s temptations.”
5. Calvary Chapel, Santa Ana (tie): 6,000 - now claims a huge drop to total 3,000 members, no information on weekly attendance:
   en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvary_Church_of_Santa_Ana

• Capital Christian Center, Sacramento (tie): 6,000 - drop - now weekly attendance of approx. 3,500
  hydratestudios.com/dreamit/speakers.html
• Crenshaw Christian Center, Los Angeles (tie): 6,000, now claims 21,000:
  ministrytodaymag.com/index.php/features/11389-paying-the-price
  “In recent years—and since the death of Kenneth Hagin Sr. in 2003—Price has become a major spokesperson for the Word-Faith movement.
  Price’s critics (e.g. Christianity in Crisis author Hank Hanegraaff and A Different Gospel author D.R. McConnell) accuse him of propagating a doctrine of health and wealth. But he has remained firm in his belief that Christians should be physically whole, financially blessed and free of suffering—a theology some opponents say doesn’t ring true in a world in which the most vibrant sectors of Christendom are often its most impoverished and persecuted.”
• First Evangelical Free Church, Fullerton (tie): 6,000 - drop - now ‘exceeds 2000’ after a huge drop following scandals:
  ocregister.com/articles/church-39711-zavadil-parking.html

1. Crystal Cathedral, Garden Grove: 5,438 - between 300 and less than 1,200, now headed by Bobby Schuller
   books.google.com/books?id=EMcSBQAAQBAJ&lpg=PA38
   Sold iconic structure and merged with another RCA congregation.
2. Church on the Way, Van Nuys: 5,347 - no official numbers, some state 5,000, other’s 8,000, and other’s 12,000.
   therooftopblog.wordpress.com/2010/05/26/50-leaders-of-the-evangelical-generation-17-jack-hayford-pentecostal-standard/
   They seem to be coming apart with pastors coming and leaving soon afterward, the newest now limiting church services:
   In November, 2013, the ICFG board of directors appointed D. Timothy “Tim” Clark as the new senior pastor of the Church on the Way. Clark was installed by Jack Hayford accompanied by Foursquare senior leadership on February 2, 2014.
   In May, 2014, Clark announced that he would be leading the congregation in taking a time of “pause” for the next three to four months, with only limited church services and programs available to the congregants and community. This plan was quickly endorsed and supported by Jack Hayford.
   en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Church_on_the_Way

 

[ltwin]

1. Calvary Chapel, Downey: 7,500 - they claim between 8,000 and ‘more than 9,000 today’; also see above:
   ccdowney.com/information/history/
   During the late 1960’s, Jeff Johnson was a surfing, opium-smoking hippie, following drug guru Timothy Leary, and living on the North Shore of the Hawaiian island of Oahu. Caught in the turmoil of the 60s as an adolescent, he attempted to fill the inner void and restlessness he felt with drugs, sex, parties, and surfing. … (continued)…
   In May of 1973, Jeff Johnson became part of what was to become Calvary Chapel of Downey. Its beginning was in the unlikely location of Furman Park. By May of 1978, only five years after his start of a small fellowship. The Lord blessed Jeff with a fantastic facility, as big as six football fields.
   I don’t know but if this is a bit of embellishment or what - I wouldn’t be comfortable handing a church to a late60s bigitme drug abuser/Buddhist/Hindu/etc - turned early 70s pastor? Is that considered the ‘Biblical model’ or something by CalvaryC?
   adherents.com/largecom/calvary.html
   “Then there was Jeff Johnson himself, our leader, who would tell us that before converting to Christianity and while tripping on acid, the devil appeared to him in a tent in the jungles of Hawaii, and, Johnson insisted, granted him the power to control the elements. After experimenting with the flies in his tent–making them do backflips with the power of his mind–he wandered to a cliff overlooking the ocean. There he summoned a tsunami that drowned all the sunbathers on the beach. He did not tell this story as that of an imagined vision during a bad trip, but as an event that he apparently believes actually took place, an occurrence so unsettling that he had no choice but to turn to Jesus to escape the devil’s temptations.”

So, what’s your biblical model for leadership? Someone who stepped out of a Leave It To Beaver episode and has a seminary degree? Please. If Jesus teaches us anything it is that the sins of our past do not define our future. Jesus makes all things new-that includes us when we are born again.

If Jeff Johnson, who I know nothing about, has done something scandalous and sinful since he gave his life to Christ and began pastoring a church then he should be called out on it. But what he did before he came to saving knowledge of Jesus Christ should not be held over him as some sort of “you’re not qualified because once you were lost without Christ” garbage. None of us are qualified frankly. All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. All of us were lost once, but by God’s grace we are found.

 

[Reuben_J]

I’ve read about the “blunder” but why do you think they’re successful? ……
I’d like to see our Catholic friends at least understand that the Holy Spirit is at work in these churches and in the people who worship there.

Hard to say. Some talented people, even with non-christian agenda, can draw big crowd and it is not necessarily the work of the Holy Spirit. I am not sure everybody would attribute such phenomena as caused by the Holy Spirit. Once the euphoria dies, then what?

More importantly it is the truth, not some teaching that sounds nice and makes one feel good but may not be the truth or correct.

 

[spedteacherita]

Hard to say. Some talented people, even with non-christian agenda, can draw big crowd and it is not necessarily the work of the Holy Spirit. I am not sure everybody would attribute such phenomena as caused by the Holy Spirit. Once the euphoria dies, then what?

More importantly it is the truth, not some teaching that sounds nice and makes one feel good but may not be the truth or correct.

Agreed…there are some leaders who do not teach sound Christian doctrine but pull people in with the (I can’t remember the term) promise that if they give so much they’ll get a certain amount back and those that promise healings.

But there are plenty who teach Christ - definitely not as what the Catholics would deem as sound doctrine but they do sincerely, with much prayer, teach and bring people closer to Christ.

As I said before, I watch the Calvary Chapel teachings on TV on those days I cannot physically make it to worship service - I am fed spiritually although I do miss the communion part of our service.

Thanks for responding!

God bless, Reuben,

Rita

 

[CuriousMike]

Yes, these Churches try to teach enthusiastically. But the problem often lies in the misconceptions they often teach (Saved by faith alone, by grace alone. Sola-Scripture, No works needed*, Don’t pray to anyone but Jesus)

*This is dangerous, because it implies that you can just show up, say, “I believe in Jesus,” and then thats it. People’s eternal lives are being put to state with this.

Coming from the “happy clappy” Assemblies of God background, without a Pastor, I can honestly say the Church is trying more for “feel-good” Christianity than the honest Christianity, with rich history and strong prayer-life.
Its all too simplified. Its hard to believe people could swallow the “Just profess your faith and its done” mentality. Life wasn’t meant to be easy, and neither was our walk with God.

Remember, that while God may be present when two or more people gather in His name, they doesn’t necessarily mean they will strive for His will. They could completely ignore it, while claiming to follow it.

Also remember, that while other Christians do have the Holy Spirit, they do not have a real, true and substantial presence of Jesus (in the Eucharist) amongst them.
Only God knows about this, but as best we can ascertain here on Earth, he only gave his power to one Church, and one set of beliefs. Not over 30,000. Somebody has got to be wrong.

Sorry for the harsh tone, but I more people need to understand the origins of Protestanism and the lack of truth-teaching. Much of their faith is very good, and some Catholics could stand to learn a thing or two. But there is also much mis-guidance and teaching.

God Bless

 

[spedteacherita]

Yes, these Churches try to teach enthusiastically. But the problem often lies in the misconceptions they often teach (Saved by faith alone, by grace alone. Sola-Scripture, No works needed*, Don’t pray to anyone but Jesus)

*This is dangerous, because it implies that you can just show up, say, “I believe in Jesus,” and then thats it. People’s eternal lives are being put to state with this.

Coming from the “happy clappy” Assemblies of God background, without a Pastor, I can honestly say the Church is trying more for “feel-good” Christianity than the honest Christianity, with rich history and strong prayer-life.
Its all too simplified. Its hard to believe people could swallow the “Just profess your faith and its done” mentality. Life wasn’t meant to be easy, and neither was our walk with God.

Remember, that while God may be present when two or more people gather in His name, they doesn’t necessarily mean they will strive for His will. They could completely ignore it, while claiming to follow it.

Also remember, that while other Christians do have the Holy Spirit, they do not have a real, true and substantial presence of Jesus (in the Eucharist) amongst them.
Only God knows about this, but as best we can ascertain here on Earth, he only gave his power to one Church, and one set of beliefs. Not over 30,000. Somebody has got to be wrong.

Sorry for the harsh tone, but I more people need to understand the origins of Protestanism and the lack of truth-teaching. Much of their faith is very good, and some Catholics could stand to learn a thing or two. But there is also much mis-guidance and teaching.

God Bless

I understand what you are saying but from a Lutheran Christian perspective (and having many family members in other Protestant churches I know the deep, profound faith in Christ. While I don’t agree with their take on the Lord’s supper and other doctrines they live their lives for Christ - just as many Catholics do. No matter what church you are worshiping in you will find people who are doing things they think are right to gain them eternal life and to us it may look like it won’t work. It’s the seed of faith planted within them.

We do believe that we are justified by grace thru Christ because we are told so in Scripture. It’s not true that we don’t think that works are important - yes they are important but we believe that it’s a natural fruit of the seed of faith that is growing from the Bread of Life - the Word of God. And, there are those who ‘bank’ on that and don’t do more than go to church and fellowship each Sunday - that’s going to happen unfortunately.

I understand enough about the teachings of the Catholic Church that it would be easy enough to transfer over to it if I were convinced that some of the doctrines taught were actually brought down from the Apostles. I’m still in the process of discerning and have come upon some stumbling blocks which I have to have removed before I could even consider that move.

This is off the topic of the OP but it’s important to me to keep questioning in order to understand deeply and I have to defend those worshipers who attend whatever Protestant church. There are many of those churches that do have very “suspect” doctrines and go overboard with them but they are not representative of mainstream Protestantism.

Thanks for allowing me to voice my issues with it as well. Dialogue is important as we can continue to learn from one another.

Oh, before I forget you stated, “Saved by faith alone, by grace alone. Sola-Scripture, No works needed*, Don’t pray to anyone but Jesus.” It undoubtedly happens in any of the churches but while we criticize those who emphasize “no works needed,” it is not taught in that way. We (as Lutherans - and those in my family who are not) definitely don’t understand that works are a part of our salvation but that they are an indisputable and natural fruit of our faith and the Spirit working within us. Faith without works is dead, yes, but someone who has the Holy Spirit working in them will naturally be filled with the need of others and act accordingly.

As far as your tone, I did not take that as harsh at all. You conveyed your concern for your fellow “separated brethren” and want them to have the fullness of faith that you experience in your Catholic faith.

God bless you, Mike!!

In Christ,

Rita

 

[KjetilK]

Yup, every Sunday I go to Mass solo. She refuses to go. So on Saturday evenings I sit through stuff like this vocaroo.com/i/s1bMnU7uNfqM

quadruple facepalm

That clip was, well, interesting. Does this pastor know the difference between a nickname and a translation (since both the Aramaic Kephas and the Greek Petros means ‘Rock’)? And did’t he read that Peter’s original name was Simon?

 

[CuriousMike]

I understand what you are saying but from a Lutheran Christian perspective (and having many family members in other Protestant churches I know the deep, profound faith in Christ. While I don’t agree with their take on the Lord’s supper and other doctrines they live their lives for Christ - just as many Catholics do. No matter what church you are worshiping in you will find people who are doing things they think are right to gain them eternal life and to us it may look like it won’t work. It’s the seed of faith planted within them.

We do believe that we are justified by grace thru Christ because we are told so in Scripture. It’s not true that we don’t think that works are important - yes they are important but we believe that it’s a natural fruit of the seed of faith that is growing from the Bread of Life - the Word of God. And, there are those who ‘bank’ on that and don’t do more than go to church and fellowship each Sunday - that’s going to happen unfortunately.

I understand enough about the teachings of the Catholic Church that it would be easy enough to transfer over to it if I were convinced that some of the doctrines taught were actually brought down from the Apostles. I’m still in the process of discerning and have come upon some stumbling blocks which I have to have removed before I could even consider that move.

This is off the topic of the OP but it’s important to me to keep questioning in order to understand deeply and I have to defend those worshipers who attend whatever Protestant church. There are many of those churches that do have very “suspect” doctrines and go overboard with them but they are not representative of mainstream Protestantism.

Thanks for allowing me to voice my issues with it as well. Dialogue is important as we can continue to learn from one another.

Oh, before I forget you stated, “Saved by faith alone, by grace alone. Sola-Scripture, No works needed*, Don’t pray to anyone but Jesus.” It undoubtedly happens in any of the churches but while we criticize those who emphasize “no works needed,” it is not taught in that way. We (as Lutherans - and those in my family who are not) definitely don’t understand that works are a part of our salvation but that they are an indisputable and natural fruit of our faith and the Spirit working within us. Faith without works is dead, yes, but someone who has the Holy Spirit working in them will naturally be filled with the need of others and act accordingly.

As far as your tone, I did not take that as harsh at all. You conveyed your concern for your fellow “separated brethren” and want them to have the fullness of faith that you experience in your Catholic faith.

God bless you, Mike!!

In Christ,

Rita

It seems I didn’t explain myself and my opinions well enough, LOL.
What I should have said is some denominations consider works, any works, un-necessary, which is where the “faith alone” argument arises. Although… If one has faith, then he should be striving to do the will of Our Father, in Heaven!

Some articles from this site:
catholic.com/quickquestions/why-does-the-church-teach-that-works-can-obtain-salvation
catholic.com/blog/tim-staples/are-good-works-necessary-for-salvation

I notice you mention having qualms with the Catholic doctrine. Don’t worry, all of us do at some point. A lot of teaching is based on both Old Testament practice, along with what either Jesus or the Apostles said in the New Testament. Although, ultimately, it is up to you when and if you accept these teachings.

Again, I was perhaps ambiguous discussing “Saved by Grace alone.” Of course, we are all saved by God’s Grace. Although, the Golden Rules:

• We are saved
• We are being saved (i.e. working out our salvation)
• And we will be saved if we persevere in God’s Grace.
  (Paraphrased from "Lurem Verum Apologetics, “Defend the Faith! Christ the Teacher Volume IV” An excellent document, which covers a great deal of the issues many outside (or inside) the faith have with the Church
  It helped me as I decided where to take my faith).

Here: lumenverum.org/apologetics/DefendtheFaith/page.html
(Can be printed out, or you can use your Print button to save as a PDF file for easier e-reading)

 

[AbideWithMe]

“Let’s take a look at Dr. Moores Bio from his own website :
Dr Mark Moore was a professor of New Testament at Ozark Christian Collegefrom 1990-2012, receiving a PhD from the University of Wales (2008) for his work on the politics of Jesus. In 2012 he has accepted the role of Teaching Pastor of Christ’s Church of the Valley in Phoenix, AZ. Mark has authored a number of books, mostly on the Life of Christ (also Acts and Revelation).”

So your telling me that a guy with 12 years of teaching the new testament and having a PhD made a simple mistake like that. Yes I agree that it is not a big deal but don’t say that he didn’t purposely tell a false hood like that, as if he was some 17 year old sunday school teacher.
And that clip was only 2min, I sat through an hour of stuff just like that recording.

quadruple facepalm

That clip was, well, interesting. Does this pastor know the difference between a nickname and a translation (since both the Aramaic Kephas and the Greek Petros means ‘Rock’)? And did’t he read that Peter’s original name was Simon?

Yes, KjetilK, above is his bio, so I’m sure he knows that Peter’s original name was Simon–an elementary grade Sunday School student would know that. It doesn’t take any “scholarship” at all to know that fact.

So he made a careless mistake, which was said in an aside to the main point he was making. I suspect he was looking for ways to be a little funny, as some speakers do, in saying Peter’s momma would have called him Cephas, and made a dumb mistake about familiar material. That’s a big deal?? It’s not like he’s misleading people about an important theological matter which they can’t very easily know the truth of themselves.

I sure have made obvious mistakes myself at times in talking about something which I know well. I’m glad people have been gracious enough to not make a big stink about my own dumb mistakes.

 

[spedteacherita]

Again, I was perhaps ambiguous discussing “Saved by Grace alone.” Of course, we are all saved by God’s Grace. Although, the Golden Rules:
**- We are saved

• We are being saved *(i.e. working out our salvation) ***
• And we will be saved if we persevere in God’s Grace.
  (Paraphrased from "Lurem Verum Apologetics, “Defend the Faith! Christ the Teacher Volume IV” An excellent document, which covers a great deal of the issues many outside (or inside) the faith have with the Church
  It helped me as I decided where to take my faith).

Here: lumenverum.org/apologetics/DefendtheFaith/page.html
(Can be printed out, or you can use your Print button to save as a PDF file for easier e-reading)

No argument with what I highlighted in bold…and a bit of a problem with the “working out our salvation” - although I think sometimes we deal with semantics more than doctrinal issues. But I totally agree that we are saved, are in the process of being saved (because we need be in a process of daily (hourly, minute by minute, second by second) conversion and, yes, we will be saved. Love the way that you put that concept. You all are giving me lots to read - will have to do that once Mom comes home from hospital. Thanks for your clarification with what you had posted.

God’s love is great!! Blessings, Mike!

Rita

 

[CuriousMike]

No argument with what I highlighted in bold…and a bit of a problem with the “working out our salvation” - although I think sometimes we deal with semantics more than doctrinal issues. But I totally agree that we are saved, are in the process of being saved (because we need be in a process of daily (hourly, minute by minute, second by second) conversion and, yes, we will be saved. Love the way that you put that concept. You all are giving me lots to read - will have to do that once Mom comes home from hospital. Thanks for your clarification with what you had posted.

God’s love is great!! Blessings, Mike!

Rita

“Working out our salvation” comes from the verse Philippians 2:12, and is covered here (towards the end):
catholic.com/tracts/assurance-of-salvation

I guess the suggestion is that we are working towards salvation, and therefore “working it out as we go along” (with guidance from God and Spiritual Directors/Priests/Clergy etc)

God Bless You

 

[aimee]

I’ve read about the “blunder” but why do you think they’re successful? The Word of God is present among the people and is being taught. You all know that Protestant churches are here - ragging on them will not make them go away. I, myself, prefer a small liturgical setting but we have complimented this with contemporary music that is not loud and blasting our ears out.

I’d like to see our Catholic friends at least understand that the Holy Spirit is at work in these churches and in the people who worship there. Dissing them is not going to bring your message to them - remember Christ went to where the sinners were and didn’t wait for them to realize the Truth He was teaching.

I understand this forum is for debate and not to try to bring others to our different faiths but can’t we celebrate our love for the Lord and not downgrade the worship that many people have grown up with and only know about?

So, anyone want to come into the Lion’s Den with me this Sunday? You know I’m just kidding (I hope) but seriously the way the stuff is happening in our world we are headed for the soon return of Jesus and we want to bring as many people as we can with us!

God bless all!
In Jesus’ love,

Rita

I find your post quite charitable…thanks for posting
God Bless

 

[AbideWithMe]

“Let’s take a look at Dr. Moores Bio from his own website :
Dr Mark Moore was a professor of New Testament at Ozark Christian Collegefrom 1990-2012, receiving a PhD from the University of Wales (2008) for his work on the politics of Jesus. In 2012 he has accepted the role of Teaching Pastor of Christ’s Church of the Valley in Phoenix, AZ. Mark has authored a number of books, mostly on the Life of Christ (also Acts and Revelation).”

So your telling me that a guy with 12 years of teaching the new testament and having a PhD made a simple mistake like that. Yes I agree that it is not a big deal but don’t say that he didn’t purposely tell a false hood like that, as if he was some 17 year old sunday school teacher.
And that clip was only 2min, I sat through an hour of stuff just like that recording.

Fritz—That’s just the thing. Calling his mistake poor scholarship is silly—does anyone seriously think that after getting a PhD on a New Testament subject, and after being a NT professor, Dr. Moore really has never come across the abundantly evidenced fact that Simon, not Cephas, was Peter’s original name?

So that leaves two possibilities. One, as you believe, is that he purposefully told a lie. To what purpose, Fritz? His mistake wasn’t even remotely necessary to support his point; it was said as an aside. And it was the kind of mistake that any one who has read the NT can correct in less than a minute, proving Dr. Moore embarrassingly wrong. So why do you think he would purposefully make such a blunder which can so easily be used to shame him, Fritz? What do you think is his agenda, his purpose? What would he have to gain, if he made this mistake deliberately, that outweighs the fact that a cunning person like him would know he can be quickly proved wrong to his own embarrassment?

The other possibility I see is that–gasp!—he’s human, he makes silly mistakes, forgetting things he knows well, and sometimes saying dumb things. As I speculated above, perhaps he was trying to be a bit “cute” as a speaker—oh, the sheer evilness of lame humor—and, when a verse that was part of his main point mentioned Cephas, he forgot something he knows and tried to use it to be funny.

 

[AbideWithMe]

I find your post quite charitable…thanks for posting
God Bless

Bonjour, Aimee (ha).

Whether spedteacherita stays Lutheran or becomes Catholic, I think she posts charitably, as well.

 

[spedteacherita]

I find your post quite charitable…thanks for posting
God Bless

Thank you, Aimee. I think the best way to communicate with one another is with respect. I think we learn so much more. I appreciate your comment immensely.

God bless your day!

Rita

 

[SyroMalankara]

Maybe he was trying to be funny, who knows, seems the audience didnt get the joke, some may have taken it literally… Anyone read/view the link I posted from Greg Laurie and his “Zionism = Christianity, Divine patriotism” so-called ‘sermon’? That is neither scholarship nor Christian teaching, simply a political view couched in Biblical justifications (like slavery or prohibition)… You gotta love it when these jokers skip letting people know its their opinion, that there are differing yet just as valid (actually more valid, since this is patently erroneous) perspectives, and that everything they think isn’t ‘God says/the Bible says’