MEN ONLY: Should women be ordained?

[justcatholic]

No, no, no! How many times must this be said? The bible says the bishop must be the** husband ** of one wife. Got that? Also the Catholic church has already decreed that only male bishops can shepherd the local parish. End of discussion.

 

[John_Higgins]

chadwilliams:

Pope Benedict XVI disagrees with you:

Actually, while His Holiness likely DOES disagree with me, he has never written it for publication. Cardinal Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, disagreed with me. That’s an important distinction. Neither as the prefect of the CDF or as an individual cardinal archbishop did he possess the charism of infallibility. He does now. It will be interesting how/if he uses it.

John

 

[Lazerlike42]

John Higgins:

Actually, while His Holiness likely DOES disagree with me, he has never written it for publication. Cardinal Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, disagreed with me. That’s an important distinction. Neither as the prefect of the CDF or as an individual cardinal archbishop did he possess the charism of infallibility. He does now. It will be interesting how/if he uses it.

John

I would say that while you are correct that he did not posees infallibility, neither do you, I, or anybody else, and given that I would place the Cardinal’s fallible judgement on what has been infallibly defined over our fallible judgement.

 

[Sarah_Jane]

John Higgins:

Actually, while His Holiness likely DOES disagree with me, he has never written it for publication. Cardinal Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, disagreed with me. That’s an important distinction. Neither as the prefect of the CDF or as an individual cardinal archbishop did he possess the charism of infallibility. He does now. It will be interesting how/if he uses it.

John

But Pope John Paul II had written it for publication.

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/apost_letters/documents/hf_jp-ii_apl_22051994_ordinatio-sacerdotalis_en.html

 

[George_G]

This might be a good listen for some here:

peterkreeft.com/audio/09_priestesses.htm

 

[InstaurareSacra]

George G.:

This might be a good listen for some here:

peterkreeft.com/audio/09_priestesses.htm

I agree. Peter Kreeft lays out compelling reasons why the Church has no authority to ordain priestesses.

 

[chadwilliams]

John Higgins:

Actually, while His Holiness likely DOES disagree with me, he has never written it for publication. Cardinal Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, disagreed with me. That’s an important distinction. Neither as the prefect of the CDF or as an individual cardinal archbishop did he possess the charism of infallibility. He does now. It will be interesting how/if he uses it.

John

First of all, you are fooling yourself if you think that now that he is Pope, he no longer believes what he asserted in the ad dubium.

Secondly, he doesn’t need to use the charism of infallibility on this issue, because JPII already used it (as per the CDF’s ad dubium.)

Do you think the CDF would just publish an opinion willy-nilly? Especially one that is in response to a binding statement on all Catholics?

You’re fooling yourself.

 

[John_Higgins]

Chad,

First, I never said that the Holy Father has changed his mind since his elevation.

Second, I said OS doesn’t meet the infalliblity rules.

Third, I never denied it is authentic teaching.

Fourth, I’m not fooling myself, the infallibility rules are clear.

Fifth, I’m tired of this. This is a thread based on a poll based on opinions. I gave my opinion. We’ll see what happens.

John

 

[viktor_aleksndr]

NO! Thats it! If people will say about discrimination then i would say that people are equal in dignity.

Women are more religious than men.
Women are the most church goers.
Women are very blessed to bear a child.
But women are not to be ordained as a priest.
They can enter instead the holy life as a nun.

 

[RobertinRSA]

I agree with you John. I am a male and voted yes!

Who are we (men) to say that woman are not allowed to be ordained as Priets?! It is not enough to say that woman may be ordained as deacons, if the church allows ordination of woman, then they must accept that they may be ordained bishops as well.

I just feel that a male dominant and sexist society, lends itself to woman abuse. A society like this perceives woman as a lesser sex and therefore says that it is acceptable for a man to abuse a woman as it is his right.

As long as we remain sexist, then we must accept that abuse statistics of woman will be high. To all the men that voted NO, think of your sister, wife, mother, etc and their rights in society!

Mary was very influencial in the growth of Christianity after Christ’s death. In fact the apostles were cowards at His passion - as only the woman were present.

If a woman has a sincere calling to the priesthood, how are we to say no - is that Christlike? Come on, we ordain priests who cannot get a degree at the seminaries - because that guy has a true calling and who are we to turn him away if God is calling him!!! Double standards here.

Anyway, just my view. Lastly, my President (Thabo Mbeki, South Africa), has done just this. We have a female deputy president. By the next elections in 2009, half of the South African government cabinet must consist of woman. A move in the right direction to liberate woman and put an end to this perceived rubbish that woman are lesser than men.

Thanks for reading and God bless.

 

[Ghosty]

Mary was very influencial in the growth of Christianity after Christ’s death. In fact the apostles were cowards at His passion - as only the woman were present.

And they were all ordained priestesses!

Oh, wait, they weren’t. Those cowardly men were, though.

You are making an argument based on societal rights, but since when was being a priest a societal right? Since when was it a right at all? The fact is that God made men for this particular ministry, and women for others. There is nothing discriminatory about it.

Regardless, this whole poll is flawed, because the issue has been infallibly settled by the Ordinary Magisterium of the Catholic Church, meaning that the teaching has been been consistant since the beginning, giving it the exact same weight as an ex cathedra statement by the Pope. The encyclical in question is NOT infallible, and it doesn’t need to be because the teaching itself is already infallible by virtue of Ordinary Magisterium. In fact, no Pope would EVER issue a new infallible statement on the issue, just like a Pope would never infallibly declare Jesus to be the Messiah. Those two beliefs rest on the same Ordinary Magisterium of the Catholic Church, and do not require Papal ex cathedra declaration.

 

[Wolseley]

groups.msn.com/_Secure/0TwDt…-dead-horse.gif

 

[dennisknapp]

RobertinRSA:

I agree with you John. I am a male and voted yes!

Who are we (men) to say that woman are not allowed to be ordained as Priets?! It is not enough to say that woman may be ordained as deacons, if the church allows ordination of woman, then they must accept that they may be ordained bishops as well.

I just feel that a male dominant and sexist society, lends itself to woman abuse. A society like this perceives woman as a lesser sex and therefore says that it is acceptable for a man to abuse a woman as it is his right.

As long as we remain sexist, then we must accept that abuse statistics of woman will be high. To all the men that voted NO, think of your sister, wife, mother, etc and their rights in society!

Mary was very influencial in the growth of Christianity after Christ’s death. In fact the apostles were cowards at His passion - as only the woman were present.

If a woman has a sincere calling to the priesthood, how are we to say no - is that Christlike? Come on, we ordain priests who cannot get a degree at the seminaries - because that guy has a true calling and who are we to turn him away if God is calling him!!! Double standards here.

Anyway, just my view. Lastly, my President (Thabo Mbeki, South Africa), has done just this. We have a female deputy president. By the next elections in 2009, half of the South African government cabinet must consist of woman. A move in the right direction to liberate woman and put an end to this perceived rubbish that woman are lesser than men.

Thanks for reading and God bless.

Robert,

As I commented to John:

How does a teaching become established within the Catholic Church? It has to have support from both Scripture and Tradition. The ordination of women has neither. Therefore, it will not happen.

The Pope and bishops have a better chance of creating a square circle than making women priests.

This is not an issue of “rights” but of power. We must all humbly submit to Christ in this matter, for he decided the issue two thousand years ago.

Peace

Peace

 

[RobertinRSA]

Wow…

Ok u win Ghosty and dennisknapp, it is people like you who keep me so interested in this site - learning everyday. Thanks.

I think the distinction then really needs to be clarified to the world as you two have explained it - would have a lot less irritated people out there - not that I was.
Cheers,

 

[John_Higgins]

“The pope is not a prophet,” he told the priests. “He is infallible in very rare circumstances, as we all know.”–H.H. Benedict XVI, 7/25/2005

John

 

[fix]

John Higgins:

No dicastery or curial office has the charism of infallibilty. So they can’t say what is or isn’t infallible. The rules are clear.

If it were manifestly demonstrated (per Canon Law) no responsum ad dubium (response to doubt) would have been necessary.

Remember, I only said it wasn’t infallible, I didn’t say it wasn’t authentic teaching. So can it change? Probably. Will it change? Probably not likely in my lifetime. The real question is “So what?”

John

PS: The last dogma infallibly defined was in 1950.

It is infallible by the ordinary magisterium.

 

[CJE]

This poll is useless.

Women CAN NOT be ordained. They never have been and never will be. It is a doctrine of the Church and can not be altered no matter how badly women, men, whoever may want it to be.

 

[maklavan]

Your whole premise starts off wrong. “Men” didn’t declare that women couldn’t be ordained, the Church did. Big difference. The Church has spoken and, not being a democracy, that’s the end of it.

What is the Church? The Pope, the Curia, the Vatican.? All men. surely the people is the Church? How many women were consulted when this decision was made? The statement “The Church has spoken…that’s the end of it” apart from being inaccurate, is staggering in its effrontery. You cannot silence dissent by saying “Shut up! the Church has spoken!” millions left yhe Church in modern times because of this attitude.

 

[maklavan]

" I apologize if I am mistaken, but this post seems incredibly sexist and demeaning to women (I am a man). The second paragraph seems to accuse women of some sort of stubborn pride which would prevent them from seeking council from other women. This is an offensive generalization. It may be true of some women, but by no means is true of the entire gender. Some women, and some men, would not wish to confess their faults to or take advice from anybody of either sex."

No apology needed ,a ltough I was a bit startled to be accused of being sexist after being accused for many years of being to feminist! I was referring specificall to the confessional, and not to counselling in general. I am well aware that women seek counselling from women.

This posting was intended to be light in tone. Some posters in this forum take themselves Soooooooo seriously! present company excepted!

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

John Higgins:

Actually, while His Holiness likely DOES disagree with me, he has never written it for publication. Cardinal Ratzinger, prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, disagreed with me. That’s an important distinction. Neither as the prefect of the CDF or as an individual cardinal archbishop did he possess the charism of infallibility. He does now. It will be interesting how/if he uses it.

John

That’s enough for me - this woman is diving into the conversation while abstaining from the goofy poll that makes no sense any way.

John, you keep making it sound like the CDF or Cardinal Ratzinger proclaimed infallibility of the teaching. This is not the case. The letter simply points out that Pope John Paul’s original document demonstrated clearly that it was not found in Scripture nor in tradition. It is in the “deposit of faith” and it “requires assent”.

All I can say is keep trying to spin it, but it is not going to change - not with this Pope and not with any others that come along because it is simply not ours to change.

Furthermore, the Bishops must always go through Rome with their issues, but the Vatican - That is the Pope and the offices that extend from him, such as the CDF, are not required to go through the Bishops. In the west, we have the mistaken impression that all must come through our Bishops and requires there approval. This is not the case.

The best remedy for the pride and vanity displayed Catholics who continue to push women’s ordination ad nauseum is a good dose of humility and obedience.

Then again, that would be too Christ-like.
Responsum Ad Dubium on Ordinatio Sacerdotalis:

This teaching requires definitive assent, since, founded on the written Word of God, and from the beginning constantly preserved and applied in the Tradition of the Church, it has been set forth infallibly by the ordinary and universal Magisterium (cf. Second Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Church* Lumen Gentium* 25, 2). Thus, in the present circumstances, the Roman Pontiff, exercising his proper office of confirming the brethren (cf. Lk 22:32), has handed on this same teaching by a formal declaration, explicitly stating what is to be held always, everywhere, and by all, as belonging to the deposit of the faith.