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Dale_M
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The poll is not objective. It was an online survey of readers of a men’s magazine, not a survey of Christian men. Granted, most of the respondents said they attend church, but it was not a representative sample of Christian men.
telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/religion/5278040/Male-worshippers-like-to-sing-macho-songs-in-church.html
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whatevergirl
Guest
What is a ‘macho church song?’ (is that code for traditional?)
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scottywolf777
Guest
A survey of men in the UK is hardly going to convince any liturgists to “change their tune” if you’ll excuse the pun. In the UK one would shake hands with one’s wife and shout "good show ol’ dear " after sex.
What pray tell are “macho songs” anyway? And why might I want to sing them in church? The only song that springs to mind is “Macho man” which is by the Village People, a gay group and would be very silly sung in church!:harp:
:yukonjoe::slapfight::hey_bud:
“Music allows the organist and the choir director to introduce any old heresy they like into the liturgy.” -CS Lewis, a famous Brit
What pray tell are “macho songs” anyway? And why might I want to sing them in church? The only song that springs to mind is “Macho man” which is by the Village People, a gay group and would be very silly sung in church!:harp:
:yukonjoe::slapfight::hey_bud:“Music allows the organist and the choir director to introduce any old heresy they like into the liturgy.” -CS Lewis, a famous Brit
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JPUSC
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rciadan
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I still say it makes sense. A call from God to be part of the essence of what it is to be a member of the Body of christ on earth, the Church Militant: Soldiers! Soldiers of the Cross! This is a call that Men can understand, respect, and respond to!
BTW- a question for JPUSC… Which video is it that is on your signature? I went to the link and saved it to my favorites! It is awesome, but I could not find the particular one that you have in your signature and really want to find it…
BTW- a question for JPUSC… Which video is it that is on your signature? I went to the link and saved it to my favorites! It is awesome, but I could not find the particular one that you have in your signature and really want to find it…
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Mamselle_Duroc
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I have six brothers. And if it’s a choice between a hymn like Be Thou My Vision, with lines like:
“Be Thou my breastplate, my sword for the fight,
Be Thou my armor and be Thou my might,”
and a song like Hosea, with lines like:
“Come back to me with all your heart, don’t let fear keep us apart,”
do I even have to say which one they would prefer?
“Be Thou my breastplate, my sword for the fight,
Be Thou my armor and be Thou my might,”
and a song like Hosea, with lines like:
“Come back to me with all your heart, don’t let fear keep us apart,”
do I even have to say which one they would prefer?
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TheDoctor
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I don’t think so. It would probably be Ozzy Osborne’s cover of Gregorian Chant…
…or the Merchant Marine version of “Michael Row The Boat Ashore”…
…or the British Soccer Fan version of “Companions On The Journey”…
…or the Construction Worker version of “City of God”…
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JPUSC
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It’s a video of Pope Benedict XVI celebrating Mass ad orientem. Here’s the link:
youtube.com/watch?v=aGzExgJRfiA
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JPUSC
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or that song, “Here I Am”and a song like Hosea, with lines like:
“Come back to me with all your heart, don’t let fear keep us apart,”
do I even have to say which one they would prefer?
Here I am, waiting like a lover.
Eck. :ehh:
I like this one better:
Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.
Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe;
Forward into battle see His banners go!
Like a mighty army moves the church of God;
Brothers, we are treading where the saints have trod.
We are not divided, all one body we,
One in hope and doctrine, one in charity.
:knight2:
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Cavaille-Coll
Guest
I don’t think they are referring to “macho” music in the sense of style but rather a song with sensible meter and words that present Jesus as the Man He is, a true male role model of a father, worker, fearless preacher of the truth; one who expressed His love for us not through achieving dialogue and understanding with those who wanted Him dead, but by offering His blood, sweat, tears, and life to save our souls.
Most men don’t want to “come dance in the forest, come play in the fields,” and feel uncomfortable singing “we are daughters of day.” And yes, OCP, when the next year’s disposable hymnals come out, we male musicians cringe to discover which masculine pronouns you have removed from the few traditional hymns you still print. We know that certain among you who fancy God as a female hold positions of power.
Our music should emphasize meekness (power under control) rather than weakness (neither power nor control).
Most men don’t want to “come dance in the forest, come play in the fields,” and feel uncomfortable singing “we are daughters of day.” And yes, OCP, when the next year’s disposable hymnals come out, we male musicians cringe to discover which masculine pronouns you have removed from the few traditional hymns you still print. We know that certain among you who fancy God as a female hold positions of power.
Our music should emphasize meekness (power under control) rather than weakness (neither power nor control).
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Don9of11
Guest
We sing a hymn from time to time in our church choir called Dear Guardian of Mary. It’s an older hymn to St. Joseph, how much more “macho” can you get than that…LOL
As a choir member and having been singing a number of years I will admit that some of the more modern hymns in the missalette today could stand some scrutiny. They are just words strung to chords with no melody to speak of and very little thought put behind them.
I must be getting “old fashioned”, pray for me
As a choir member and having been singing a number of years I will admit that some of the more modern hymns in the missalette today could stand some scrutiny. They are just words strung to chords with no melody to speak of and very little thought put behind them.
I must be getting “old fashioned”, pray for me
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rkrispies
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FWIW, here are my thoughts on this:
Even if this wasn’t a scientific poll, I think you might find the same results regardless.
Lay men in the Catholic Church seem to have been almost pushed aside (my opinion) in that they aren’t clergy and they aren’t generally the ones who handle things on the lay side. I read somewhere (don’t recall where) that 85% of the parish work outside of the sacraments is handled by women. Generally, I think most “liturgical directors” or “music ministers” or whatever title they take are going to be women, and so they choose hymns they like. Because of the 85%, men may not like those choices, though some may.
I don’t want to start a big debate on whether the Church is sexist, or whatever else people may read into this post. I just think there are deeper issues than men wanting to sing “macho” hymns in church. (Like many here, I don’t really know what makes a song “macho”)
Anyway, my thoughts.
Chris
Even if this wasn’t a scientific poll, I think you might find the same results regardless.
Lay men in the Catholic Church seem to have been almost pushed aside (my opinion) in that they aren’t clergy and they aren’t generally the ones who handle things on the lay side. I read somewhere (don’t recall where) that 85% of the parish work outside of the sacraments is handled by women. Generally, I think most “liturgical directors” or “music ministers” or whatever title they take are going to be women, and so they choose hymns they like. Because of the 85%, men may not like those choices, though some may.
I don’t want to start a big debate on whether the Church is sexist, or whatever else people may read into this post. I just think there are deeper issues than men wanting to sing “macho” hymns in church. (Like many here, I don’t really know what makes a song “macho”)
Anyway, my thoughts.
Chris
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benedictgal
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Unfortunately, a lot of the modern compositions that we hear at Mass (Hurd, SLJ, Manolo, Ferrel, Haugen, Haas) are syrupy and too sacchrine sounding. They tend to have a heavy Carpenters, Joan Baez kind of feel to them.
Now, hymns like Jesus Christ Is Ris’n Today, Alleluia, Sing to Jesus, For All the Saints, Attende Domine, O Sun of Justice, Holy God, We Praise Thy Name (adaptation of the Te Deum), *God We Praise You *(another adaptation of the Te Deum), Pange Lingua, Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence, Salve Regina (chant setting), *Veni Creator Spiritus *(and its English adaptation, Come, Holy Ghost) and others along the same vein carry not only solid lyrics, but strong musical settings. It’s not flower-child music, by any stretch.
Now, hymns like Jesus Christ Is Ris’n Today, Alleluia, Sing to Jesus, For All the Saints, Attende Domine, O Sun of Justice, Holy God, We Praise Thy Name (adaptation of the Te Deum), *God We Praise You *(another adaptation of the Te Deum), Pange Lingua, Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence, Salve Regina (chant setting), *Veni Creator Spiritus *(and its English adaptation, Come, Holy Ghost) and others along the same vein carry not only solid lyrics, but strong musical settings. It’s not flower-child music, by any stretch.
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JimG
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Syrupy and sachharine we can do without. “Come Holy Ghost,” and “Holy God We Praise Thy Name,” are good, along with the others you mentioned.
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scottywolf777
Guest
By the way we had a priest (God rest his soul since he died) that was a big Carey Landry fan and it took years before I could stand him again. I used to when I still served mass as an adult acolyte would change the lyrics to the songs if I didn’t like them. “hear our prayer, hear our prayer of your people everywhere may there be signs of your peace everywhere” got turned into “Shave our bear, shave our bear, in his dirty underwear, may there be no sign of peas in his hair.” and Pan de Vida with it’s awful Spanglish got transformed into :“Pan of bacon sizzling on the stove, cup of dressing it’s a treasure trove at Jim’s table the last will be first etc” Since i sat by the choir the choir director would get the hint after awhile.
Actually there’s some oldies I don’t like too, “O Lord i am not worthy” is one. Albeit when i hear it I think of fr Ken Robert’s story about an elderly nun, who offered to play it on her violin at Mass and sing both of which she did very badly. Finally the priest after sister went on and on stood up and said sister you can sit down now you are NOT worthy.
There’s one OCP ditty that seems to have disappeared thank God. It was some protestant reformation thing with lyrics like "what is this house, where are we meeting only a house with a dirt floor. " I felt really silly singing that on plush pile carpet.
There is a solution for those who don’t like the choice of hymns and that’s don’t sing them. Frankly, I really hate communion hymns for the most part. Not so much the actual songs but, that they’re foisted on us as we’re going to communion preparing to recieve Our Lord and after we’ve gotten back to the pews where I like to spend a few moments in quiet contemplation with Jesus. John Michael Talbot, a musician himself, actually suggests either silence or some quiet music without lyrics if possible so as to aid our intimacy with the Lord.
I don’t really sing much anymore not because I don’t like music but, some of the choices are rotten. i have an excuse though. I can’t read the hymnal without glasses and I don’t like to take them because i leave them behind.
Actually there’s some oldies I don’t like too, “O Lord i am not worthy” is one. Albeit when i hear it I think of fr Ken Robert’s story about an elderly nun, who offered to play it on her violin at Mass and sing both of which she did very badly. Finally the priest after sister went on and on stood up and said sister you can sit down now you are NOT worthy.
There’s one OCP ditty that seems to have disappeared thank God. It was some protestant reformation thing with lyrics like "what is this house, where are we meeting only a house with a dirt floor. " I felt really silly singing that on plush pile carpet.
There is a solution for those who don’t like the choice of hymns and that’s don’t sing them. Frankly, I really hate communion hymns for the most part. Not so much the actual songs but, that they’re foisted on us as we’re going to communion preparing to recieve Our Lord and after we’ve gotten back to the pews where I like to spend a few moments in quiet contemplation with Jesus. John Michael Talbot, a musician himself, actually suggests either silence or some quiet music without lyrics if possible so as to aid our intimacy with the Lord.
I don’t really sing much anymore not because I don’t like music but, some of the choices are rotten. i have an excuse though. I can’t read the hymnal without glasses and I don’t like to take them because i leave them behind.
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benedictgal
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I just wish that OCP could just disappear. But, that will not happen. Maybe they just need to clean house. I understand that the publishing house has extended its tentacles all the way to the UK. That might explain why the menfolk may not like what they are hearing in Church.
Down here, we are stuck with Landry, Hurd, et al. I often wonder if any of the composers have ever bothered to read the authoritative Church documents on sacred music, let alone the Holy Father’s writings.
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Sarabande
Guest
This is not the first time I heard of this. Actually, it was less than a year ago, when the subject came up in a discussion and how a couple of the priests we knew talked about the what they called “feminine” hymns and other actions, how it may drive males away. These priests (young-ish priests in their late 30s/early 40s) thought that male Catholics had been neglected and that too much of the newer hymns were too “feminine” and “feel-good”.
I didn’t really think much about it then, as I personally don’t like most of the newer hymns either, and I’m a woman. But I thought about my father, my husband and other Catholic men I know and have worked with. One of my father’s favorite hymns is “To Jesus Christ Our Sovereign King”. He really bellows out each time, “Christ Jesus Victor! Christ Jesus Ruler! Christ Jesus, Lord, and Redeemer.” He gets this really “manly” voice and just belts it out. He does the same with similar hymns and most are on the traditional side. With the folksy, newer stuff, he sings more sweetly… kind of stereotypically feminine, in fact, when you think about it.
I didn’t really think much about it then, as I personally don’t like most of the newer hymns either, and I’m a woman. But I thought about my father, my husband and other Catholic men I know and have worked with. One of my father’s favorite hymns is “To Jesus Christ Our Sovereign King”. He really bellows out each time, “Christ Jesus Victor! Christ Jesus Ruler! Christ Jesus, Lord, and Redeemer.” He gets this really “manly” voice and just belts it out. He does the same with similar hymns and most are on the traditional side. With the folksy, newer stuff, he sings more sweetly… kind of stereotypically feminine, in fact, when you think about it.
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english_guy
Guest
Hello everyone,
I have just read scottywolf’s reply to this post, never mind the survey, why drag sex into a discussion about songs?. As an englishman I can assure you I or no one I know, and I know a lot of people of various social standing, have ever said “good show old dear after having sex”. I think he and a lot more americans have been watching too many 1930’s movies where all the leading actors were upper class , Eton and Harrow public school educated. Newsreels at that time and well into the 60’s were all narrated by well educated and articulate people,mostly men.
In England there are many regional accents,some even us natives have a hard time understanding, but I can assure you we do NOT all talk in the manner scottywolf 777 seems to think!
God Bless,
Mick.
I have just read scottywolf’s reply to this post, never mind the survey, why drag sex into a discussion about songs?. As an englishman I can assure you I or no one I know, and I know a lot of people of various social standing, have ever said “good show old dear after having sex”. I think he and a lot more americans have been watching too many 1930’s movies where all the leading actors were upper class , Eton and Harrow public school educated. Newsreels at that time and well into the 60’s were all narrated by well educated and articulate people,mostly men.
In England there are many regional accents,some even us natives have a hard time understanding, but I can assure you we do NOT all talk in the manner scottywolf 777 seems to think!
God Bless,
Mick.
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JPUSC
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You must have got some glaring stares.
Hey, I actually like that one!
Righty oh, jolly good show, old chap.Hello everyone,
I have just read scottywolf’s reply to this post, never mind the survey, why drag sex into a discussion about songs?. As an englishman I can assure you I or no one I know, and I know a lot of people of various social standing, have ever said “good show old dear after having sex”. I think he and a lot more americans have been watching too many 1930’s movies where all the leading actors were upper class , Eton and Harrow public school educated. Newsreels at that time and well into the 60’s were all narrated by well educated and articulate people,mostly men.
In England there are many regional accents,some even us natives have a hard time understanding, but I can assure you we do NOT all talk in the manner scottywolf 777 seems to think!
God Bless,
Mick.
Pip pip, cheerio and all that rot.
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