Men want "macho songs" in church

[Sarabande]

:nope: :nope: and again :nope: comfortable for sopranos and men (who as you say can sing an octave lower), not for us contraltos who don’t have extensive voice training and also can’t reach low enough to keep up with the dudes. We end up having to switch octaves in the high sections, which is awful. Since most sopranos can much more comfortably sing in a lower range, even a significantly lower one than their normal, than contraltos in a higher range, at a minimum put EVERY song down a good half octave.

Most contraltos I know personally or have seen perform have a very good, wide range, (actually, a lot of the Rossini repertoire was written for women who had more of a contralto and/or mezzo range) although their tessitura does lie lower, obviously. But again, they have extensive voice training and are doing it professionally. I realize that there are people who do have ranges which aren’t the average voices and that is unfortunate for them in terms of singing hymns. My grandmother is basically a contralto, although completely untrained, and she sings mostly everything an octave lower. I was speaking in general for the average voice. The contralto range, as I know you are very aware, is a very special and rare voice. There aren’t many of them and I find them to have such a special and unique sound. But again, the typical contralto top note is about F5 (although they can go higher if trained properly) and most hymns do not even touch those higher notes.

But, again, in general most hymns are composed in the middle voice of the average person, male or female. They are composed for the majority in mind. That’s why it would be nice to have harmonies printed in the hymns so that musicians like you could sing the alto parts.

I’ve heard of these tricks. They do NOT work - except for those who don’t know their own range which I do - when the average soprano cantor is up there doing her Sutherland impersonation.

Again, I’m sorry that you do have difficulty singing these hymns and that those tricks don’t work for you. Those soprano cantors shouldn’t be doing a Sutherland impersonation, and if they are then they are definitely singing in a much higher key and adding many more notes in the hymn than they should.

I can understand your problem, though, especially since you have some training. Those tricks work for most people, even for some trained singers, just from my own experience of people always thanking me for singing lower when I’m actually not - I’m just singing much more grounded and not like a bird. I totally understand how you feel. I’ve sat in the congregation, with a bird-like soprano singing away in the average range, but she made it feel so high like it was for light coloratura soprano repertoire even though I knew that it wasn’t. It is all psychological - and singing is very psychological. Once I’d get past the mind tricks playing on the ears, I could center myself, hear the notes from within, and sing with grounding, thus getting rid of the feeling being up in the stratosphere.

I feel you pain and understand why you’d want everything transposed a fourth down, but if every song was transposed down a half octave, the majority of people wouldn’t be able to sing them. I have almost a three-octave range from an F3 to E6 (usually during exercises to keep me flexible, but there are some works even for a coloratura mezzo that use all of those notes). I sang both alto and soprano in choirs, so I’m used to both ranges. But if the average voice was to sing everything in the very lowest or beyond our ranges because of a huge transposition, you’d have even less people singing at mass because it would be very uncomfortable to continually stay down in the nether regions - same as it would be to expect the average person to continually sing between D5-G5 in a hymn (which thankfully, I haven’t seen any like that). The average hymn runs between an A3 to a C5, once in a while D5/E5. To go a half octave lower would be really too low for most average voices.

BTW - There are some hymnals which have all their hymns in two different keys. One in the average range and one in a slightly lower key. They are usually lowered about a half step to two whole steps below the original. For some hymns, I think that is very helpful - especially for that hymn “I Am the Bread of Life”. I have no idea how the average voice can get through that hymn. It jumps everywhere and the average person cannot sing it nicely, even as much as they might like the hymn and belt it out. You always hear people drop out. And it’s not because of the range, it is because of how it is composed. One minute you are in the lower range of the voice. Next minute you are jumping to the top part of range within the hymn. That’s hard to do for the typical untrained singer. For a man or for an untrained contralto, I can see how this would be even more difficult to sing. I never recommend this hymn unless it is requested. I also don’t like the hymn because it gives an excuse for the cantor to use his/her trained abilities (or lack of) to sing out like it’s a solo, especially when it is in the original key - and that’s not what we’re there for.

 

[scottywolf777]

Here’s a person who can really do “macho” songs and it’s a scottish woman. She even made american idol’s simon smile. don’t think I’ve ever seen that.
gloria.tv/?media=25128
susan boyle you gotta see her to believe her!

 

[Mike_Dye]

For my tastes as far as singing anywhere goes; “Silence is Golden”.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

Over half of the parishes in America use music resources from OCP, which has a disproportionate number of songs (I won’t call them hymns) written in the key of D for easy guitar playing. I’m not sure which is musically worse: printing songs with a tessitura above a D, or printing songs which change time signatures every few bars.

Sr. Suzanne Toolan’s “I Am the Bread of Life” spans an octave and a half, while Fr. Jan Michael Joncas’ “On Eagle’s Wings” starts on a seventh, and these are some of the easier songs! If hymnals printed music in four parts like many Protestant ones do, those who read music can follow their parts, while those who don’t will start to follow them.

If you want to hear men singing, visit your local seminary. From my own experience watching and singing with seminarians, the “syrupy” songs listed in various posts above generally gain a good response since formation directors are watching, but the “macho” songs others have listed raise the roof. “Holy God,” “Amazing Grace,” Tantum Ergo," O God Beyond All Praising," and others like these elicit loud singing. If “Onward Christian Soldiers” were in our hymnals (and it was until an editor in the 1990’s found it too “bellicose”), our voices would break the chapel windows. Perhaps that’s why the Knights of Columbus always sing it.

 

[Sarabande]

Over half of the parishes in America use music resources from OCP, which has a disproportionate number of songs (I won’t call them hymns) written in the key of D for easy guitar playing. I’m not sure which is musically worse: printing songs with a tessitura above a D, or printing songs which change time signatures every few bars.

One of the many reasons why I’m very happy our parish does not use OCP. If these are the kinds of hymns LilyM was talking about it, I can totally relate to her.

Sr. Suzanne Toolan’s “I Am the Bread of Life” spans an octave and a half, while Fr. Jan Michael Joncas’ “On Eagle’s Wings” starts on a seventh, and these are some of the easier songs!

I totally agree with this. The problem with both is not necessarily the span (although that doesn’t help), but how it is written where it does require someone with training to sing well. It has a non-trained singer do vocal jumps. They aren’t difficult songs, but although people like them, they don’t sing them well. You always hear people drop out, screech, struggle vocally, etc. with these two particular songs. What also tends to happen is that the song can sometimes end up becoming a solo, or family members choose them for their loved one’s funerals in order to hear them as a solo because they can’t sing it themselves. It’s hard enough for a untrained female singer. How about for a male singer. Yikes!

If hymnals printed music in four parts like many Protestant ones do, those who read music can follow their parts, and many of those who don’t read music will soon start to follow the parts of those who do.

Totally agree. There needs to be a revamping of how liturgical music is published, distributed, taught and introduced to congregations and especially to the children in these parishes. Once you start with them, it becomes easier with each generation. How it can be done, depends on each parish. But you really need a dedicated music director/teacher, etc. and a pastor who supports it.

If you want to hear men singing, visit your local seminary. From my own experience watching and singing with seminarians, the “syrupy” songs listed above gain a good response (formation directors are watching!) but the “macho” songs others have listed would raise the roof. If “Onward Christian Soldiers” were in our hymnals (it was until an editor found it to be “bellicose”), our voices would break the chapel windows.

I always love hearing “To Jesus Christ Our Sovereign King” and “O God Beyond All Praising” at mass. The people blow the roof off with them and you can always hear the men “belting” along in both keys.

 

[centurionguard]

Unfortunately, a lot of the modern compositions that we hear at Mass (Hurd, SLJ, Manolo, Ferrel, Haugen, Haas) are syrupy and too saccharine sounding. They tend to have a heavy Carpenters, Joan Baez kind of feel to them.

Now, hymns like Jesus Christ Is Ris’n Today, Alleluia, Sing to Jesus, For All the Saints, Attende Domine, O Sun of Justice, Holy God, We Praise Thy Name (adaptation of the Te Deum), *God We Praise You *(another adaptation of the Te Deum), Pange Lingua, Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence, Salve Regina (chant setting), *Veni Creator Spiritus *(and its English adaptation, Come, Holy Ghost) and others along the same vein carry not only solid lyrics, but strong musical settings. It’s not flower-child music, by any stretch.

It’s too bad you don’t see this more tradition Catholic music including Latin songs brought back into the liturgy. In many parishes and diocese Catholic church music is changing much to the growing tune of ecumenical music from our Protestant brothers and sisters.
Liturgical music today “is not” exclusively catholic anymore. Like some of the pitiful modernized designs used in the architecture of new Catholic Churches being built, much of todays modern liturgical music for the edification of the Mass and for the prayerful inspiration in our congregations is brought to ruins. And just WHO do we blame for this ?
Both the liberated minds of the clergy and the lay leaders who officiate certain offices in dioceses. I can only imagine what Jesus might be thinking…What Have You Done To My Church ? Were a passive people we Catholics.